gregtech block breaker nerf

[Whovian]

II only say this because the later is clearly both illegal and unethical.

Unethical, (almost) everyone can agree on that.

Illegal ... everyone brace themselves for the flame war which is to come.

 

[Saice]

I still boggle at the whole idea of a Mod being some sort of holy item noone can touch. It seems to only be in the MC commuity as most other Moding communities I've been a part of tend to be fairly open about passing there mods around adding to each other and building off each other. All in the name of helping the playe alter the game to there own personal playstyle. The mod drama being a rare thing that mostly happens behind the scenes between the two moders in question on a personal level and not something that really shows up in the genral commuinity.

Oh well. At least I got this air popper and its gets a lot of use these days around here.

 

[Peter_Gunnn]

I'm not gonna keep going back and forth, but I wish we could at least agree that no one is "editing Eloraam's mod" in this case. The player's experience is being edited, but Eloraam's copyrighted material is not altered. I only say this because the later is clearly both illegal and unethical.

The former is the subject of this discussion, and it's something akin to "tainting the well" to use the same words for different things. At the very best, it's imprecise. At worst, it's an outright disingenuous way to try and confuse the discussion.

the code and the experience are both the property of its owner/creator. deploying a man-in-the-middle attack to alter the experience is in effect no different from altering the code to achieve the same experience alteration.

 

[Peter_Gunnn]

whovian, i'd really appreciate an answer to lambert's question:

When someone modifies a game, it does NOT give implied permission to modify that mod, why the hell would it and where did you get such a convoluted idea from?

 

[Whovian]

whovian, i'd really appreciate an answer to lambert's question:

I apologize, not thinking properly right now, apparently.

EDIT: I was also referring to from the perspective of the end user, not the modder.

 

[bwillb]

if modder x alters my property or the experience it creates without my permission, yes that is certainly an attack.

But that's not what's happening here. Modder X is creating their own property which supersedes a portion of yours on an optional basis. Your original work is still your original work, it has not changed and can continue to be used without the addon.

are you comprehending that is exactly what is being done by modder x to me in the first place? i guess not.

Do you honestly not perceive the difference between offering an optional modification and covertly breaking things out of malice?

what you do for personal use is your problem. when you impose your will on others (e.g. altering all media players on all consoles, none of which you own) then yes, it's FMITAP for you.

But you see, this whole gregtech thing falls squarely in the "personal use" area. No one is saying "if you use ic2 and rp2 you HAVE to use gregtech". Those mods continue to work perfectly fine without gregtech. The only ones trying to impose their will on others are the "use the mod exactly as it comes or don't use the mod" people. eg: You.

the code and the experience are both the property of its owner/creator. deploying a man-in-the-middle attack to alter the experience is in effect no different from altering the code to achieve the same experience alteration.

The experience is the sole property of the end user. You cannot, legally or physically, force me to enjoy something the way you want. If I want to put ketchup on my steak, there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

 

[Whovian]

The experience is the sole property of the end user. You cannot, legally or physically, force me to enjoy something the way you want. If I want to put ketchup on my steak, there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

Or if you want to put your ketchup in Tin Buckets.

 

[Yuka]

I still boggle at the whole idea of a Mod being some sort of holy item noone can touch.

Think of it as, say, some drawing/ painting you make, then someone else decides to just take it, edit it, and distribute it as a "good/ better" version of yours, would you not be, at the very least annoyed of someone doing something of the sort?

Its like telling them "Your work is not good enough."
Granted, the players, as the ones who'll benefit of the result either way probably won't care, but doesn't mean the modmakers don't care, and they, being the ones who worked on the mod, are on their right to be mad, even if they can't "legally" do anything..

Now some mod makers may be fine with sharing their mods and allowing anyone to do with them as they please, but that does not mean everyone should feel entitled to do so with everyone's mods.

On a side note, I love how every GT fan NEVER questions GT's "balance," if its on GT, its automatically perfectly balanced, and they just jump to attack anyone questioning GT's sense of "balance," kinda funny considering that's basically what GT is, someone questioning someone else's sense of balance.

 

[Saice]

Think of it as, say, some drawing/ painting you make, then someone else decides to just take it, edit it, and distribute it as a "good/ better" version of yours, would you not be, at the very least annoyed of someone doing something of the sort?

You know like fair use?

This does happen often with art be it painting, music, video, or just about any creative work.

You are in fact allow to do this as long as your not reprocusing it 100% and your not claiming to be the orginal auther.

If it was not for fair use there would not be remixes, parodies, fan fiction, or any other sort of dirvitive works.

And on that GT Fan side I have questioned his blance and even have pointed out I dislike some of his make it expsivie for grind sake methods.

 

[bwillb]

Think of it as, say, some drawing/ painting you make, then someone else decides to just take it, edit it, and distribute it as a "good/ better" version of yours, would you not be, at the very least annoyed of someone doing something of the sort?

Again, that's not what's happening here. The gregtech mod doesn't touch the original work at all. They offer an optional filter that you can put over the work to get a different experience. It's like putting music through an equalizer. The original music is still the same, and I still get it from the same source, but I can hear it slightly differently if I choose to.

On a side note, I love how every GT fan NEVER questions GT's "balance," if its on GT, its automatically perfectly balanced, and they just jump to attack anyone questioning GT's sense of "balance," kinda funny considering that's basically what GT is, someone questioning someone else's sense of balance.

Personally I'm not really a fan of much of his balance. It's okay balance on its own but makes early IC2 useless compared to some other mods in the pack.

 

[Yuka]

You know like fair use?

This does happen often with art be it painting, music, video, or just about any creative work.

You are in fact allow to do this as long as your not reprocusing it 100% and your not claiming to be the orginal auther.

If it was not for fair use there would not be remixes, parodies, fan fiction, or any other sort of dirvitive works.

And on that GT Fan side I have questioned his blance and even have pointed out I dislike some of his make it expsivie for grind sake methods.

Never said it didn't happen, that was not the point I was trying to make and I wasn't questioning the legality of it.

 

[Whovian]

May I propose a solution to this constant greg-warring?

A thread for GT flamewars. Locking would, unfortunately, defeat the purpose of it, so it would, unfortunately, break a rule or two. However, whenever people start arguing about GT on a thread, someone could direct them to the flamewar thread and tell them to continue there, thus preventing "contamination" on the rest of the forum, similarly to putting some lit dynamite in a concrete bunker instead of standing right next to it.

Now, I'm against this idea solely because of the whole fact that a few global rules would be broken. But I still believe that I've come up with a solution which *should* work if everyone grasps the concept of a GT flamewar and when it should be taken to that thread.

 

[KirinDave]

the code and the experience are both the property of its owner/creator.

Under what legal ruling or law? Copyright law very explicitly deals almost exclusively with tangibles. I copyright my code, but my ideas are not protected. Were someone to create a clean room re-implementation of my code, copyright would not protect me.

deploying a man-in-the-middle attack to alter the experience is in effect no different from altering the code to achieve the same experience alteration.

That argument would be more compelling if Greg was using proxy classes in the code or some similar injective technique. As it stands, he does the recipe changes by manipulating shared Forge resources that both Eloraam and Greg have agreed to rely upon. Since these resources are explicitly and deliberately amenable to alteration, it seems like a pretty weak argument. In any event this is not the definition of a man in the middle "attack" since the user opts in.

 

[Peter_Gunnn]

But that's not what's happening here. Modder X is creating their own property which supersedes a portion of yours on an optional basis. Your original work is still your original work, it has not changed and can continue to be used without the addon.

that applies to the optional block breaker rcipe. but, tell that to players using steve's carts2, thermalexpansion or any other mod that has been altered by greg. it wasn't optional, and they only found out after the fact.

Do you honestly not perceive the difference between offering an optional modification and covertly breaking things out of malice?

again, thermalexpansion users were not offered the option of not having sawmills broken, for example. my forcing of zombie flesh output is an improvement, just as greg's alterations are. you may not like it, but I AM THE MIGHTY PETERIOUS AND DAMN YOU FOR QUESTIONING MY WISDOM.

The experience is the sole property of the end user. You cannot, legally or physically, force me to enjoy something the way you want. If I want to put ketchup on my steak, there's not a damn thing you can do about it.

the experience is the sole property of its owner/creator, and your opinion of it is yours. apple, sony, disney, volkswagen and many others define the experience of their products as their product as much as the tangible items. you are free to decide whether you enjoy it or not, but you cannot put monster truck tires on a volkswagen beetle and pass it off as a volkswagen.

 

[Yuka]

Also

Again, that's not what's happening here. The gregtech mod doesn't touch the original work at all. They offer an optional filter that you can put over the work to get a different experience. It's like putting music through an equalizer. The original music is still the same, and I still get it from the same source, but I can hear it slightly differently if I choose to.

I wasn't talking about Gregtech specifically, I was replying to:

I still boggle at the whole idea of a Mod being some sort of holy item noone can touch.

 

[Saice]

Never said it didn't happen, that was not the point I was trying to make and I wasn't questioning the legality of it.

And as I commented earlyer MC is the only community where this whole idea that a mod is holy and should not be touched with out full writen and noterized permission form the mods author is the normal mind set.

I've done a bit of modding before (not fo MC) and I don't give a rats butt if someone takes my work and changes it to be better, worse, or just diffrent. Mods are moduler as such you plug and play the ones you want no one is holding a gun to your head to load this or that mod. Futher more no one is kicking down some other mod makers door and foring there code into their mod.

I understand the whole point of view on the evils that is GT but I think this mindset which ive only ever seen in the MC moding community is toxic and in the end stifles development. So I do not agree with it. Let moders mod what they want to mod becuase at the end of the day you can just chose not to use any mod that offends you.

 

[Whovian]

that applies to the optional block breaker rcipe. but, tell that to players using steve's carts2, thermalexpansion or any other mod that has been altered by greg. it wasn't optional, and they only found out after the fact.

Just two *minor* things with that post that I want to point out. One, AFAIK, only the Scaffolding and the buckets are the only non-optional changes.

Second, the only changes GT makes to TE, if I remember correctly, are regarding the Ore Dictionary Unificator. That is, for instance, Pulverizers output Dust instead of Pulverized metals in order to not have two kinds of Copper "dust," for instance.

 

[Peter_Gunnn]

In any event this is not the definition of a man in the middle "attack" since the user opts in.

i chose to play the mindcrack pack knowing gregtech was installed and set to hard mode. i did not choose radical changes in non-gregtech items or mechanics.

 

[immibis]

May I propose a solution to this constant greg-warring?

A thread for GT flamewars. Locking would, unfortunately, defeat the purpose of it, so it would, unfortunately, break a rule or two. However, whenever people start arguing about GT on a thread, someone could direct them to the flamewar thread and tell them to continue there, thus preventing "contamination" on the rest of the forum, similarly to putting some lit dynamite in a concrete bunker instead of standing right next to it.

Now, I'm against this idea solely because of the whole fact that a few global rules would be broken. But I still believe that I've come up with a solution which *should* work if everyone grasps the concept of a GT flamewar and when it should be taken to that thread.

Having a dedicated thread would defeat the purpose of it, because then nobody would bother to read it unless they were about to post an anti-GT rant.

 

[bwillb]

Also
I wasn't talking about Gregtech specifically, I was replying to:

Fair enough, but the same holds true for every other mod addon or mod to a mod that I've seen except for ones where the author gave someone permission to take over the project.

i chose to play the mindcrack pack knowing gregtech was installed and set to hard mode. i did not choose radical changes in non-gregtech items or mechanics.

You chose to use a config created by someone else, which means you got every change they chose. But you're free to modify the config to pick and choose the changes you want because greg doesn't try to control the end user's experience to the point that certain other modders do. Hell if you play your cards right in the config you can end up with an experience that is *easier* than it would be without gregtech!

Seriously it's like you acquired a used car and started bitching up a storm that it has fuzzy dice on the mirror even though it would take you just a few seconds to remove them.