FTB - It´s to easy, how to make it hard?

[Celestialphoenix]

So I read something quite interesting the other day.
(slightly shortened version)

It depends if you're aiming for a more structured gameplay or a focus on the sandbox and getting to it as quickly as possible. Is it about teaching new players how to use certain part/block types, then moving on as quickly as possible to get to the "good part" of having all the everything at your disposal, or each stage of the tech tree is a potential "good part" where you're trying to figure out how to use the specific limited parts at your disposal to accomplish various goals.
To me the latter represents increased gameplay diversity where at different stages of the game you're thinking in different ways about how to get things done.

By example take a different game- Eve online.... it takes three years to max out your character, and to some that's automatically a bad thing.
Those are the the kind of players that are focused on the end of a game being the primary goal, rather than the process of playing itself.

A "grind" isn't something that takes a lot of play time. A "grind" is when the amount of content and gameplay you experience along the way isn't sufficient to justify the amount of effort it takes to get there. Constantly having goals to strive for, even if you may never accomplish them, is awesome, no matter how long it takes you to get there. What sucks is when the reward to effort ratio isn't sufficient to justify it, or when the individual sub-tasks it takes to get there don't represent interesting gameplay in their own right

And for the record; if mod devs do give in to people asking for options for anything; they're idiots. People do not know what they want collectively, because they can't collectively want one thing. Generally people have no idea what they want until they've had it or been given the option for it.

That was incredibly well said- well done my good sir

(I might borrow that quote- it bears a lot of relevance to vanilla MC)​

By extension- giving in and pandering to one's audience also hurts the mod/game by taking dev time away from [the author's] original vision/goals, as well as diluting the game experience away from how it was intended to be played.

 

[verid]

If you want challenging mobs to make the early game much more difficult, try the mod Grimoire of Gaia. The mobs added not only have high HP and attack damage, but they're fast - many of them move at the player's sprint speed or so. Some also have special abilities (e.g. leap).

Once you have high tech gear - i.e. nano armor or better and a railgun or similar - no matter what mobs/mods you add you will not have any challenge from them, though. You may need to combine mods like Grimoire of Gaia with your own ruleset where high tech gear is not allowed.

Overall, a good approach is to make the early-game more difficult to survive and the mid-game more difficult to automate. There are numerous ways to achieve this through adding mods, changing config or making up your own rules. As you've seen from replies above, everyone has their own play style. You have to decide for yourself and a good server admin goes a long way.

 

[zorn]

Did Forgecraft cause any influence for the last 4 versions of Minecraft? Was there any change?
You know, if it did, then your theory is correct. And people aren't asking for harder mods, people are asking for more fun goals from the community and fun ideas from the modders.
Disclaimer: I'm not a phsycologist, so what I'm saying here may be wrong.

Actually if you go to other sites like reddit an read comments there, it is the opposite of this forum. Lots of people talk about OP mods and want harder mods. Don't claim to speak for everyone, if people weren't asking for harder mods there wouldn't be so much arguing on this forum.

Notice the OP asked about making things harder along with others, and pixie said he is removing ender storage which is what I'm moving to also.

 

[Golrith]

Removing mods like Ender Storage is the wrong direction to go. These type of mods help servers as there is no need for miles of pipes/tracks/chunkloading mechanics to get resources from A to B.
The recipe for ES can be quite difficult, due to it needing a lot of mob drops, mobs which are among the hardest to deal with in vanilla. It's other mods that add cheap/easy super powerful armour and weapons that are the problem and should be re-balanced or removed. For new players it can be a daunting recipe, for more seasoned players, it's not.

I believe most mods should have alternate recipe options that require more resources, or even better yet (for small block quantity mods), such as the energy manipulation mod, you can actually enter into the config file the recipes for the blocks, providing the greatest flexability when combining mods together into a single pack. It allows the recipes to be "balanced" to the pack, instead of "balanced" against vanilla.

 

[zorn]

Removing mods like Ender Storage is the wrong direction to go. These type of mods help servers as there is no need for miles of pipes/tracks/chunkloading mechanics to get resources from A to B.
The recipe for ES can be quite difficult, due to it needing a lot of mob drops, mobs which are among the hardest to deal with in vanilla. It's other mods that add cheap/easy super powerful armour and weapons that are the problem and should be re-balanced or removed. For new players it can be a daunting recipe, for more seasoned players, it's not.

I believe most mods should have alternate recipe options that require more resources, or even better yet (for small block quantity mods), such as the energy manipulation mod, you can actually enter into the config file the recipes for the blocks, providing the greatest flexability when combining mods together into a single pack. It allows the recipes to be "balanced" to the pack, instead of "balanced" against vanilla.

This is a good point, probably better to remove EE3. i think the problem is when you start making tesseracts a stack at a time, it gets a little crazy. Using them within your base is when things get a little ridiculous, iMO.

But also, moving items around without teleporting is bad for overloaded servers, but from what Ive seen if you are willing to pay for a good one and don't play with a lot of people, it's fine. My friends and I use a $48 a month server from creeperhost for 4 of us, and i've punished this thing and not seen any change in ram or CPU usage at all. AE system using 700 energy/t, 35 boilers running off of fermenters and stills, fusion reactor, dozens of MFSUs, a few Soul Shards, running 24 chunk loading mining turtles going 2000 blocks at one time, etc etc. As i built/did it, the server load barely moved at all. My friends both pumped lava from the nether and ran a ton of IC2 cable loops on their solar panel arrays too.

So maybe server load is more of an issue on public servers? Still, i agree that the issue is really other mods, not really ender storage itself, etc.

 

[Antice]

Removing mods like Ender Storage is the wrong direction to go. These type of mods help servers as there is no need for miles of pipes/tracks/chunkloading mechanics to get resources from A to B.
The recipe for ES can be quite difficult, due to it needing a lot of mob drops, mobs which are among the hardest to deal with in vanilla. It's other mods that add cheap/easy super powerful armour and weapons that are the problem and should be re-balanced or removed. For new players it can be a daunting recipe, for more seasoned players, it's not.

I believe most mods should have alternate recipe options that require more resources, or even better yet (for small block quantity mods), such as the energy manipulation mod, you can actually enter into the config file the recipes for the blocks, providing the greatest flexability when combining mods together into a single pack. It allows the recipes to be "balanced" to the pack, instead of "balanced" against vanilla.

yeah. ender storage by itself is not a big issue, but not having it does ramp up difficulty. it puts a bottleneck in the system for moving things back and forth between remote locations. railcraft is actually a quite good solution in regards to lag tho. since you do have the option of only loading chunks with trains in them. that is far kinder to the server than loading a string of a hundred chunks for a stupid pipeline.

most of the worst lag issues on servers can be mitigated by having players agree on not doing certain things tho, like not loading large areas with chunk loaders for instance.
or limiting the use of quarries. no single player ever needs the output of 4 simultaneous 64x64 quarries. seriously. it's just not possible to use that many blocks in the same timeframe as you are harvesting them. people should really work on building better, rather than just spamming the most expensive blocks possible.

 

[Nygard]

We are a group that play FTB .
But we think it is to easy.

groups will advance too fast. I noted that by just adding a single friend it gets much faster/easier.
I usually play it alone (or pair) and the difficulty curve is quite fine.

anyway, I'd suggest spliting your group...make it like two rival groups or something

 

[ThePixie35]

Removing mods like Ender Storage is the wrong direction to go. These type of mods help servers as there is no need for miles of pipes/tracks/chunkloading mechanics to get resources from A to B.

A fair point, but ehhh, instantaneous transport of items IMHO, is a bad thing. With servers I think yes, OK it does cut down on lag but at the same time, after you've set up a few you've got a solution to every problem that require little thought in fixing.

I think the problem is when you start making tesseracts a stack at a time, it gets a little crazy. Using them within your base is when things get a little ridiculous, iMO.

Tesseracts are well balanced for a while, but as soon as you get so far into the game, they are identical to ender chests. There are more eloquent solutions to everything that will make things "harder".

 

[MigukNamja]

The tried and true MMO solution to power creep is new end-game content, whether it be more levels and zones or simply more raids. However, content is expensive and major MMOs have R&D budgets in the millions (or more) per month and can afford to create said content.

The FTB and broader MC community, however, does not have any such content creation, partly for budget reasons and partly because MC is a sandbox game and not a linear, content-drive game. So, we have mods that enhance the world and the rules of the game rather than providing straight-up content to go through.

The except to this are the big mods - they are content in and of themselves. However, once someone has been through all the new or updated mods, one has effectively been through all of the content, and what else is there left to do ? Re-roll. That's what we do. And, we don't re-roll with a new class/faction/zone, but we re-roll a new world with a different set of mods, configs, or self-imposed rules. We also give ourselves challenges. This is not too dissimilar to what happens in major MMOs as the content ages - players get creative and retry old content or in a different way, and this is where MC and MMOs diverge

MC *is* a sandbox game where we can make our rules and literally make our own world and so our challenges must come from us.

tl;dr - Good thread on a worthy topic

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

One of the things that I look for as a mod pack developer is unexpected synergy between mods, and really it is this which can be the cause of so many problems.

Case in point, the problem which caused so much drama vis a vis Gtech and TiCo. One mod had a mechanic for smelting down anything that you could use your pickaxe on, and have fortune applied to the results. The other had a requirement of smelting blocks of metal back down into ingots.

By themselves, there was no problem. With TiCo, you could get your 2-3 ingots per ore directly rather than needing to run them through a machine, but the additional cost was probably worth it. Plus the convenience of not needing to smelt sand into glass, and other things. GregTech really liked the idea of verisimilitude and wanted you to compress ingots into blocks rather than craft them, and smelt them back into ingots rather than simply craft them. Which, within the context of Gtech, made a lot of sense.

Together, however, it caused a 'dupe bug' where you could get around 2.5x ingots that you were supposed to get out of a block of metal and start an infinite loop. Not so good.

Now, some mods just had items that were, by nearly any measure, exceedingly powerful. The QSuit from IC2 is a perfect example, particularly the helmet. Other mods had jumping and safe fall and running fast, so the legs and boots were okay. The Qsuit chest, while powerful, also blocked the jump pack or the lappack (until Gravisuit came out). But the Helmet was probably one of the most broken pieces of equipment I've ever seen. In effect, it was total immunity to nearly any negative status effect, but particularly Poison and Wither. It made fighting Wither Skeletons and the Wither itself completely trivial.

The Minium Stone from EE3 can be seen as another one, however the problem here is more dynamic. In effect, it lets you turn one thing into another. However, the problem with it is that it allows you to bypass gated materials. For example, I could turn four iron into an EnderPearl. Personally, I find that convenient. Yes, I could set up an Ender Grinder or heck, a simple platform up around Y100 with an overhang to grind out endermen in job lots. Or, I could spend iron and get some pearls, which was handy when I was in the process of making some Translocators and just needed one Ender Pearl right at that moment. From a convenience perspective, it was great.

However, it also had a process for making cobble into diamonds, which is what most people had a rather big problem with. Granted, it took many combines to do so, however it was possible, and for this reason, there was much uproar.

I suppose what I'm trying to say here is that it isn't just specific 'trouble mods', it is also a synergy between mods which can cause issues.

Now then, as far as a solution, that really depends on your definition of the term 'hard'. Everyone has a different idea of 'hard' and 'fun' and how to make a game entertaining without making it punishing. Of course, for some people, punishing IS entertaining, otherwise you wouldn't have such a large fanbase of games like I Wanna Be The Guy! So what I might consider punishing, others might consider an enjoyable challenge.

Give me a definition of what you would consider 'hard and fun' and I could make you a mod pack which will fit that definition. Find twenty five, or even ten, people who agree with that definition... and I will.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

Armour stuff

Actually you raise a fair point about armour. Even a suit of iron gives a lot of protection for almost no cost other than materials, with the super stuff monsters really don't matter.

If all armour had a weight penalty based on what material it is, and then the total weight effect ranging from increased hunger to limited movement/jumping or mining fatigue and sinking in water ect

I guess a fair balance would involve less/no armour making Steve a little faster and more agile. ​

The effect is quite interesting; you'll need to mix and match what you wear depending on what you're doing- as well as force your hand in a few situations(need to cross a river? better strip off!).

The other thing being near-constant health regen (Lets be honest- food is never an issue now)- any damage you do take is almost negated after a minute or so.

Those who remember playing before the adventure update (b1.7.3 or earlier), would know that even in a full suit of diamond a single creeper or skeleton can mean a REALLY bad day. You certainly wouldn't charge into a pack of mobs and expect to survive like we do today.​

If you took damage then- the only way to heal was eating food for insta-health. Said food didn't stack; having enough to supply 10 hearts took a significant amount of space. ​

Space is limited, thus was health- and almost any damage could kill you if you weren't careful.​

 

[MigukNamja]

Yes, I remember the days when health didn't regen. You had to eat to heal. Falling damage was something to seriously consider.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, I remember the days when health didn't regen. You had to eat to heal. Falling damage was something to seriously consider.

Of course, back then, food were merely health potions as well, which could be spammed for burst health.

 

[Ember Quill]

Lets be honest- food is never an issue now

Play Magic Farm. Or just add Hunger Overhaul to any modpack. Food will definitely be an issue again.

 

[RedBoss]

Food isn't an issue in 1.6. But since hunger points are used to heal, good luck eating that berry medley while fighting off the zombie horde wearing modded armor. You will die a lot more than you're used to.

 

[Antice]

Food isn't an issue in 1.6. But since hunger points are used to heal, good luck eating that berry medley while fighting off the zombie horde wearing modded armor. You will die a lot more than you're used to.

yeah. Food itself is not an issue in 1.6. it is actually going out and getting it that can be an issue. exploration has definitely gotten more interesting. Survival at night is no longer certain for sure. even on Normal I die nowadays. been a long time since that happened. used to roam freely with nothing better than iron armor all night long on hard mode before. Even sometimes just punching creepers for the heck of it.... can't play zombie tag no more. nosirree.. the zombie horde will be upon you in droves if you try it now. and them zombies are armed and armored to the teeth.

 

[RedBoss]

Depending on your mod mix, that armor will be the reason that you die. In ResRise, I usually see them in that horribly tough glow stone armor, or worse the various metallurgy armors. It's to the point now that I build a fenced and well lit perimeter before I even dig a cave hovel. I don't even attack from behind the fences because of the chance of a magic zombie spawning into my perimeter.

Taking on skeletons without a projectile weapon is suicide. I'm at the point now that endermen feel easy compared to the undead mobs. What's worse is the evil mobs added by ars magica. The Hecate's AI is deceptive and they're easy to lose track of in dark areas. Don't get me going on the golems and water spirit things! I got swarmed by them and a horde of angry zombies with babies when I fell during caving. 1.6 is a damned death trap

 

[Antice]

Depending on your mod mix, that armor will be the reason that you die. In ResRise, I usually see them in that horribly tough glow stone armor, or worse the various metallurgy armors. It's to the point now that I build a fenced and well lit perimeter before I even dig a cave hovel. I don't even attack from behind the fences because of the chance of a magic zombie spawning into my perimeter.

Taking on skeletons without a projectile weapon is suicide. I'm at the point now that endermen feel easy compared to the undead mobs. What's worse is the evil mobs added by ars magica. The Hecate's AI is deceptive and they're easy to lose track of in dark areas. Don't get me going on the golems and water spirit things! I got swarmed by them and a horde of angry zombies with babies when I fell during caving. 1.6 is a damned death trap

Good to see that it ain't just me that is dying a lot to those damn glowstone armored skeletons.. damn they are hard buggers to deal with.
and yeah. those Ars magica mobs look tame, but looks sure are deceptive. they gang up on you quick if you don't pay enough attention. they can also take a beating before dying i have noticed. so unless you have a decent weapon it is just better to run away from them.
Archery has become much more important to me now, and i am loving every second of it. PS I am playing on a slightly changed Res Rise as well. I removed a couple of mods that weren't doing it for me. so no metallurgy armors around, but the armors added by mechanism are plenty bad enough.

 

[Golrith]

Depending on your mod mix, that armor will be the reason that you die. In ResRise, I usually see them in that horribly tough glow stone armor, or worse the various metallurgy armors. It's to the point now that I build a fenced and well lit perimeter before I even dig a cave hovel. I don't even attack from behind the fences because of the chance of a magic zombie spawning into my perimeter.

Taking on skeletons without a projectile weapon is suicide. I'm at the point now that endermen feel easy compared to the undead mobs. What's worse is the evil mobs added by ars magica. The Hecate's AI is deceptive and they're easy to lose track of in dark areas. Don't get me going on the golems and water spirit things! I got swarmed by them and a horde of angry zombies with babies when I fell during caving. 1.6 is a damned death trap

Sounds like our experiences on Omega Dawn server, 1.5.2, with Zombie Awareness, Infernal Mobs, Primitive Mobs, Hunger Overhaul and hard mode. Still "easy" once you get the tech though.

 

[Trunks9809]

Sounds like our experiences on Omega Dawn server, 1.5.2, with Zombie Awareness, Infernal Mobs, Primitive Mobs, Hunger Overhaul and hard mode. Still "easy" once you get the tech though.

Possibly - though I would have to say the combination of 1.6 mechanics, mekanism and metallurgy has made your offensive capabilities matter every bit as much as your defensive ones now. No longer is a fully kitted out MPS with energy shields god mode. The sheer number of mobs that you'll attract means even a powersuit wearer is in danger unless they're selective about target priority etc.