Applied Energistics

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KirinDave

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That is the entire point, I'd say, and why it is a good bit more expensive compared to a barrel/router train. But we really only have "A bunch of chests", then "A bunch of barrels", and then "A bunch of barrels connected with routers" and that is the end of the current storage system. This adds the next level to it, and makes it the logical next step. So yes, there isn't any reason you should use a lower-tech less-awesome storage system after you build a proper AE storage network. Unless you are a luddite, maybe, heheh.

AE networks have an interesting tech progression. Early on, they're basically just like diamond chests that take power. You could use a small sum of preformatted ME chests as you would with barrels (tested, this works even with diamond pipes). You can power them with simple engines like stirling engines and that'll be enough for most uses. You might also use them to handle stuff like quarry outputs. You'd still find use for pipes and tubes and sorters until you're basically swimming in quartz, then you'll find yourself starting to add storage loops and basic production tools to the network, and upgrade to access terminals. Going from the simple chest use to a network is pretty expensive and even now, the power costs spike pretty dramatically (2-4x just to start).

Eventually you can replace everything and it's superior in every way to other mods we have in the pack. But that's okay, the mods in our pack are not very good at autocrafting and storage anyways. Instead of being uniformly better it "grows" into your infrastructure. The progression is organic and while it might need a steeper slope and a slightly steeper tail for crafting, it's very balanced early on, and later on when you're churning out gregtech items or MPS agony recipes in bulk, you can pour resources into making that easy.
 

Syrinori

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AE networks have an interesting tech progression. Early on, they're basically just like diamond chests that take power. You could use a small sum of preformatted ME chests as you would with barrels (tested, this works even with diamond pipes). You can power them with simple engines like stirling engines and that'll be enough for most uses. You might also use them to handle stuff like quarry outputs. You'd still find use for pipes and tubes and sorters until you're basically swimming in quartz, then you'll find yourself starting to add storage loops and basic production tools to the network, and upgrade to access terminals. Going from the simple chest use to a network is pretty expensive and even now, the power costs spike pretty dramatically (2-4x just to start).

Eventually you can replace everything and it's superior in every way to other mods we have in the pack. But that's okay, the mods in our pack are not very good at autocrafting and storage anyways. Instead of being uniformly better it "grows" into your infrastructure. The progression is organic and while it might need a steeper slope and a slightly steeper tail for crafting, it's very balanced early on, and later on when you're churning out gregtech items or MPS agony recipes in bulk, you can pour resources into making that easy.
Adding on to this, while late game it may feel over powered, you really arn't going to be able to touch the bulk of the powerful features until you have a tunnelbore going getting you quartz, cause the autocrafting and high end storage cells will blow through your quartz supply FAST. I think a 64k storage cell is something like 108 quartz.
 
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Herrozerro

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Adding on to this, while late game it may feel over powered, you really arn't going to be able to touch the bulk of the powerful features until you have a tunnelbore going getting you quartz, cause the autocrafting and high end storage cells will blow through your quartz supply FAST. I think a 64k storage cell is something like 108 quartz.

Not to mention dust for each of the processors for each step of the way.
 

Guswut

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Adding on to this, while late game it may feel over powered, you really arn't going to be able to touch the bulk of the powerful features until you have a tunnelbore going getting you quartz, cause the autocrafting and high end storage cells will blow through your quartz supply FAST. I think a 64k storage cell is something like 108 quartz.

Exactly. By the time you can do that, you should be able to do a lot of things that are "overpowered", in which case you are perfectly properly powered as that is when you reach "godmode".
 

KirinDave

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Adding on to this, while late game it may feel over powered, you really arn't going to be able to touch the bulk of the powerful features until you have a tunnelbore going getting you quartz, cause the autocrafting and high end storage cells will blow through your quartz supply FAST. I think a 64k storage cell is something like 108 quartz.

And I'm not sure what "late game overpowered" means. Any system you can build with AE you can build with Redpower2, but with a bigger footprint, less energy consumed, and a greater cost to your server. I don't get how redpower's essentially free energy is not considered "overpowered" but AE's significantly increased use of mainstream power systems are.
 

Guswut

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And I'm not sure what "late game overpowered" means. Any system you can build with AE you can build with Redpower2, but with a bigger footprint, less energy consumed, and a greater cost to your server. I don't get how redpower's essentially free energy is not considered "overpowered" but AE's significantly increased use of mainstream power systems are.

The term "overpowered" is one of those extremely subjective terms (such as "good", "bad", "right", and "wrong") that drive me crazy, because they prey on an assumed sameness in the morality and mentality of everyone involved, which is irrational. It is one of the terms that I usually try to only use when context demands it, and then with bunny ears around it to show my disdain for it (because bunny ears are pretty cruel, no?). It also usually is a signal, to me at least, that someone is not able to focus on the bigger picture.
 

Chrono

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The term "overpowered" is one of those extremely subjective terms (such as "good", "bad", "right", and "wrong") that drive me crazy, because they prey on an assumed sameness in the morality and mentality of everyone involved, which is irrational. It is one of the terms that I usually try to only use when context demands it, and then with bunny ears around it to show my disdain for it (because bunny ears are pretty cruel, no?). It also usually is a signal, to me at least, that someone is not able to focus on the bigger picture.
It is only extremely subjective wen misused, the term "overpowered" should be used in compassion between two similar things, let's say one machine cost the exact same materials as another, but does the work twice as fast, that is wen "overpowered" or "underpowered" terms are used, usually you don't want a "thing" to be far superior to other "thing" unless it is tier above it, this situation becomes a can of worms wen we add a bunch of different mods together, where the creators all have a different sense of balance.
 
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Guswut

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It is only extremely subjective wen misused, the term "overpowered" should be used in compassion between two similar things, let's say one machine cost the exact same materials as another, but does the work twice as fast, that is wen "overpowered" or "underpowered" terms are used, usually you don't want a "thing" to be far superior to other "thing" unless it is tier above it, this situation becomes a can of worms wen we add a bunch of different mods together, where the creators all have a different sense of balance.

Then the word you are looking for is "unbalanced", which is a perfectly acceptable term without the irrational baggage following "overpowered".

Normally, people say something like "Oh, that is so OP [overpowered]!" when referencing a mod that they feel provides something too useful/that changes their mental dynamic in regards to a game mechanic.

In reality, AE is fairly well balanced (from what I've seen. A playthrough will be coming soon!) for what it provides, and unlike most other storage systems, it does not have an easy/set top end level as it is modular.
 
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Chrono

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Then the word you are looking for is "unbalanced", which is a perfectly acceptable term without the irrational baggage following "overpowered".

Normally, people say something like "Oh, that is so OP [overpowered]!" when referencing a mod that they feel provides something too useful/that changes their mental dynamic in regards to a game mechanic.

In reality, AE is fairly well balanced (from what I've seen. A playthrough will be coming soon!) for what it provides, and unlike most other storage systems, it does not have an easy/set top end level as it is modular.
And there we go!
The problem whit these terms is indeed how subjective they are, for me and my circle of friends "unbalanced" is a term generally used for wide scales, as in "this entire mod is unbalanced", we save the OP and UP terms to a few stray items in a mod, as in " solar is kinda of OP, but the rest is good"
 

Guswut

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And there we go!
The problem whit these terms is indeed how subjective they are, for me and my circle of friends "unbalanced" is a term generally used for wide scales, as in "this entire mod is unbalanced", we save the OP and UP terms to a few stray items in a mod, as in " solar is kinda of OP, but the rest is good"

And my point is proven. So, it seems that the only logical choice is this: We create an AI which can properly define these terms for us, and then utilize it to run our communications, until, finally, we have it taking care of all non-creative/interesting tasks.

So, my life plan is re-affirmed again. Huzzah! Heh heh heh.
 
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b0bst3r

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AE looks so good but OP it is very [/yoda]

Needs to be extremely expensive to make ... EXTREMELY!!!

IMO
 

KirinDave

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AE looks so good but OP it is very [/yoda]

Needs to be extremely expensive to make ... EXTREMELY!!!

IMO

It already is. Quartz is uncommon and you need a ton of it. And no other storage system on the market will sequester your items if you cannot generate sufficient power.

But I still don't get why you dont' say exactly the same thing about Redpower2 managers and sorting machines and tubes. How is this actually different from a manager network (except that it's easier to configure and makes your server cry less)? I can see only 1 real tool that is "new" to this mod, and that's the Level Emitter. It's a super-powerful tool, I grant, but it's not outrageous.
 
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ItharianEngineering

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It already is. Quartz is uncommon and you need a ton of it. And no other storage system on the market will sequester your items if you cannot generate sufficient power.

But I still don't get why you dont' say exactly the same thing about Redpower2 managers and sorting machines and tubes. How is this actually different from a manager network (except that it's easier to configure and makes your server cry less)? I can see only 1 real tool that is "new" to this mod, and that's the Level Emitter. It's a super-powerful tool, I grant, but it's not outrageous.
Because RP2 is old. AE is new. With RP2 the general population understands the average complexity of creating a RP2 system, but AE is so new that we have not grasped how difficult each machine is to make or the price to run it. Given time people will understand the amount of materials needed to create such an 'OP' system and realize it is not 'OP' at all. Also RP2 makes creating these networks sometimes a pain, in the case of an autocrafting system for every item in the game you would likely have to use a program in game to control it which makes it very tedious to create for most people, but AE has a multiblock autocrafting system that you can link to your entire network.
 
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Abdiel

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That is the entire point, I'd say, and why it is a good bit more expensive compared to a barrel/router train. But we really only have "A bunch of chests", then "A bunch of barrels", and then "A bunch of barrels connected with routers" and that is the end of the current storage system. This adds the next level to it, and makes it the logical next step. So yes, there isn't any reason you should use a lower-tech less-awesome storage system after you build a proper AE storage network. Unless you are a luddite, maybe, heheh.
What I'm saying is, in my base I have right now:

Redpower sorting machines to distribute items to processing chains.
Enderchests moving the items into machine rooms.
GregTech machinery automating input/output of machines.
Buildcraft pipes where I need an extremely compact setup and I am in no danger of overflow.
Routers when I need to manage mutiple machines.
Barrels for bulk storage.
Golden chests for storage of assorted items I'm working with.
A project table for crafting logic gates, circuits, and other basic components.

All of it is pretty end-game (as in, there is no higher tier in the given mod), and I do not intend to upgrade most of it any further. I will add a CC automated crafting system once I get around to fixing the code for 1.5.

It feels that all of this could be replaced by AE and be done strictly better. I have no experience with the mod, so I don't know if the resource or energy cost would be enough of an incentive to keep any of the dozen other systems around. And designing, planning, and building all of the above is definitely more entertaining to me than putting a cable down and having instant access to everything.
 

Guswut

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It feels that all of this could be replaced by AE and be done strictly better. I have no experience with the mod, so I don't know if the resource or energy cost would be enough of an incentive to keep any of the dozen other systems around.

Yes, all of that should be able to be done better using one mod. Likely NOT cheaper in resources (not by a long shot from what I've seen), but better, by a whole lot.

Which is awesome, because it means that your next step would then be to upgrade to a unified AE network which will make your life that much easier.
 

Abdiel

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Yes, definitely better in the sense of faster, more efficient, easier to set up. But I am not sure whether it would be more enjoyable - at least for my playstyle (technically oriented). I like the complications, overcoming challenges with different systems, trying to pick the best tool for every job. I like planning positioning of every machine down to a block so that I can fit exactly the right amount of pipes, tubes, hoppers, buffers. I like devising solutions for parallelization, buffering, overflow detection and control. I don't think I would like this all being replaced by a controller block and a few cables. This is why I like Redpower: it gives you a lot of different machines, which don't do much too useful by themselves. But by their creative combination, you can make a system to do nearly anything you want.

I agree that AE is (pending resource/energy costs) objectively better at what it does than most other current systems. But I am not sure that it makes it a better mod.

Once again this is all my personal opinion, your preferences could be completely different, and I don't have a problem with that. As always, in the end, it's neither you nor me who decides whether the mod gets added to a pack or not.
 

The Heresiarch

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As Dire says in his new spotlight, the issue is not so much being "OP" as such now, just that the energy usage needs to be carefully balanced, which I think is reasonable enough.
 

KirinDave

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It feels that all of this could be replaced by AE and be done strictly better. I have no experience with the mod, so I don't know if the resource or energy cost would be enough of an incentive to keep any of the dozen other systems around.

In some cases it can. In some cases it can't.

Redpower sorting machines to distribute items to processing chains.

In many cases the system you could build with AE would be better but cost a ton more energy. RedPower sorting systems except the BC engine are essentially free. You can power multiple sorting machines off one thermopile.

Enderchests moving the items into machine rooms.

Enderchests are safe. AE is made much more powerful using them as a transfer layer between disparate networks since the per-tick energy cost of a network grows linearly with its size.

GregTech machinery automating input/output of machines.

Only for ISided things. But the GT blocks have always been mediocre for this anyways. And Golems are similarly powerful and less expensive.

Buildcraft pipes where I need an extremely compact setup and I am in no danger of overflow.

BC pipes still have a place here. They're radically cheaper for crafting workflows. And just like how RP2 systems can jam on overflow and cause inputters to behave weirdly, AE cells can get full really fast.

Routers when I need to manage mutiple machines.

Routers are safe. Again, expect to use AE to push into parallel router-fed pipelines the same way you would with RP2 tubes. Routers are unparalleled at that task.

Barrels for bulk storage.

Actually, barrels are uniquely well supported by AE as cheap storage terminals.

Golden chests for storage of assorted items I'm working with.
A project table for crafting logic gates, circuits, and other basic components.

It will only do so once you have pervasive wireless access covering your base. Project tables and chests will be kept as convenient output points. I tested this and it seems to work! Me crafting terminals are convenient, but I think I still prefer specialized RP2 project tables with plans on hand.

All of it is pretty end-game (as in, there is no higher tier in the given mod), and I do not intend to upgrade most of it any further. I will add a CC automated crafting system once I get around to fixing the code for 1.5.

AE can be your primary system, or it can just be your storage backplane. Right now I suspect you could just slap some import busses on your crafting lines and keep all your existing infrastructure. You'd just strategically place export busses or access terminals where you want things to be.

And the crafting system? It involves building a giant multiblock computer and occasionally opening it up and fiddling with its guts. It's neat. It's a great addition to existing systems since we have such poor autocrafting tools at our disposal in the current FTB packs.

And designing, planning, and building all of the above is definitely more entertaining to me than putting a cable down and having instant access to everything.

AE is actually a lot more complex than that. And as the power requirements go up you'll have to start strategically managing the power usage of your network. And people make it out to be "infinite storage forever" but those big cells are crazy expensive, so you will find managing storage intelligently to be an important part of AE-centric systems.
 

Abdiel

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As Dire says in his new spotlight, the issue is not so much being "OP" as such now, just that the energy usage needs to be carefully balanced, which I think is reasonable enough.

I don't think energy will ever be a huge concern. Energy (both BC and IC) can be trivially generated in unlimited or nearly unlimited quantities at a moderate speed. If that is enough energy for a network, it won't really be a concern by the time you gather all the quartz. If on the other hand the network takes so much power that you will be pushed into building vastly more efficient power generation systems and dynamically turning parts of it on or off, the "general population" will just whine about it being too power hungry for their solar panels.

[edit] IRT KirinDave: I appologize, I really have no experience with the mod other than dw20's spotlight. Before today I only barely registered its existence. There is clearly much I need to learn about it before passing further judgement.
 

KirinDave

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[edit] IRT KirinDave: I appologize, I really have no experience with the mod other than dw20's spotlight. Before today I only barely registered its existence.

Np. I spent four hours dorking with it in creative and then started a new map just to see how the earlygame was changed. And lost sleep. I figured I'd report and your test cases were good.