A Shitstorm

Discussion in 'Mod Discussion' started by Queue, Aug 31, 2014.


Which do you prefer?

  1. Lossless power

  2. Lossy power

  3. Safe power (without danger)

  4. Dangerous power if you do it wrong

  5. Plug in and play

  6. Thought and care required to not waste power

  7. RF

  8. MJ

  9. Mechanical power

Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. CovertJaguar

    CovertJaguar New Member

    So there is a bit of miscommunication and faulty assumptions floating around. I feel I owe the community a bit of an explanation. I'm going to provide that as a list of points:

    • SpaceToad replaced the API that Railcraft and Forestry were using (PowerHandler API|Second Gen) with an ubercomplex new API (MJBattery API|Third Gen). It uses Annotations extensively and adds dozens of new classes to the API. It also manages to abandon everything that enforced and standardized MJ's mechanics. Nor am I convinced that any effort has even been made to understand those mechanics fully. Buildcraft 4-5 is a very different beast from Buildcraft 2. And Buildcraft 6 (I've not touched 6 at all) is even more removed from what has gone before.
    • Legacy support for the old API is utterly broken and non-functional at the moment. Railcraft and Forestry can neither create nor use MJ correctly. This was brought to my attention Thursday and ultimately led to the announcement that sparked this thread. However, this decision has been expected for some time by those people closely tied to these mods.
    • I am no longer an active dev for Buildcraft and have no desire to debug it every time it breaks anymore. This is mainly due to creative differences with SpaceToad, including disagreements about the future of MJ and other Buildcraft APIs and features.
    • Migrating to the new MJ API would require a significant expenditure of effort. It would also require every machine to reimplement all the functionality removed from the API for each and every machine.
    • I now believe that both Railcraft and Forestry should be power system agnostic and not tied to or dependent on any specific mod. Nor should they become what I want to call a "Public Utility" mod, those mods that provide fully fleshed out power transfer systems. RF and EU are the APIs most widely supported, and hence the best ones to achieve this.
    • I'd like to see complex systems built on top of these APIs (or other promising ones). Modpacks could then build packs around these Public Utility mods. But this is not something I personally wish to pursue at this time. I encourage others to do so though.
    • This decision has been brewing in the back of my mind for a while now due to the previously mentioned factors. I was content to do nothing for as long as possible. But the status quo is no longer viable without damaging both Railcraft and Forestry. This decision was not initially very palatable to me because of long standing differences with KL and Co as well as a personal dislike for many of the core mods using RF and the super simplified implementations of RF they provide (even mod devs can have personal opinions).
    That pretty much covers the why, now we need to cover some details that most people are getting wrong:
    • Redstone Flux IS NOT ELECTRICITY! Even KL says it's not. Railcraft Electric Locomotives will not be powered by Redstone Flux! Though, there may be a machine that could convert it to electricity. RF is the leading "Magic Kinetics" API as I like to call it, but EU is the leading Electric API. Railcraft will support other Electric APIs though as well, eventaully. The Rolling Machine and Rock Crusher will likely support both. Still working on the details.
    • Mods should never allow themselves to treat different categories of power APIs as equivalent without some kind of penalty (ie a generator converter block) for the transfer or a good reason (ie the machine doesn't need electricity explicitly, just a force to do work). Getting careless with this could be a force that reduces diversity in the modspace.
    • Perdition (loss) in machines existed for one reason and one reason only. To drive gameplay elements built exclusively into Kinesis Pipes.
    • Without those gameplay elements to add depth to the system; the perdition is 100% pointless. Conduits have no gameplay elements driven by perdition.
    • Most users never experienced any of this depth because TE and RF stepped in specifically to supplant it. I won't blame them for disliking what we were trying to do with MJ, but the fact that they maintained compatibility with MJ after creating a replacement for it was a low blow that never even really gave us a chance see if our way worked. In fact, it worked to make perdition appear completely arbitrary and pointless. Better had they broke cleanly and let MJ succeed or fail on its own merits. This was a major contributing factor to the tension between our two camps, though our tensions began long before that.
    • Perdition is a feature of MJ power systems, I cannot stress this enough (I'm talking to you KL, since you keep bringing it up). It has no place in a machine implementing RF and WILL NOT BE RETAINED. If a Public Utility mod wishes to add it, I can think of at least one way for it to work without requiring machines to manage it. But this has nothing to do with Railcraft or Forestry. If anyone is interested in creating a Public Utility mod with this feature contact me and I will explain how it could be done in a way that would apply to every RF sink universally.
    • In hindsight, it would have been better to build the perdition into the pipes feeding the machines, not the machines themselves. I take full responsibility for not recognizing this until just recently, and had I taken this route, history may very well have played out very differently (RF would have had no reason to exist).
    And one final point.
    • MJ as we know it will likely not survive this. That's up to SpaceToad technically, but the rumblings are not favorable atm. I knew this when I made the decision, but it was in my opinion already being driven down that path and dragging Railcraft and Forestry along with it. This is essentially the rats abandoning a sinking ship.
    Anyway, that's the nitty gritty details of the situation we find ourselves in. I'm not happy that it's come about this way, but I forsee a glimmer of hope for a far more diverse future in the modspace if Public Utility mods catch on.
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2014
    Itaros, Reika, Larmonade and 12 others like this.
  2. bdew

    bdew New Member

    You should separate your ideas about RF (an API) and TE (Implementation of generation/transport/machines using that API).

    RF is a framework, you can do whatever you want with it. You could easily create a system equivalent to old BC with RF, you could emulate electricity with voltage or EU with packets, whatever. RF just provides a way for those implementations to talk to each other.

    I'm sure there will be more mods that implement RF transport in the future, and if there is enough interest i'm sure someone will make one that has energy loss and no storage.

    The goal should be for the end user (or pack maker, or server admin) to choose how they want power to work in their world (pack, server) and add mods according to that, without artificial API incompatibility taking away their choice.

    Edit: This doesn't mean i will be dropping support for other power systems in MY mods, i will support MJ/EU as long as feasible and possibly add other systems in the future.
  3. midi_sec

    midi_sec New Member

    +1, I'd have liked to have seen it pan out differently as well.

    To claim ignorance would just be insulting, because everybody knows that the average minecrafter gravitates to the solution with the best difficulty:efficiency ratio.
  4. Golrith

    Golrith Over-Achiever Trusted User

    In my blissful ignorance, I'd like to see a system where a machine only allows connection to one type of power with no conversion taking place on the wire/duct/tube that carries the power. But each power gen mod includes various power converters to convert to over power types, at a reduced efficiency (say 20% loss in the conversion). Ideal if you just need to power a single machine from another mod of your main power line, but painful for bigger setups, you'll either have to drastically increase the side of your existing power gen, or switch over to a native solution.

    While this idea does hurt mods like EnderIO and Mekanism where their cables will pretty much convert anything to anything, it has a side effect that things get bland as you overlook other solutions.

    Conduits should never have converted to MJ, but instead have a converter that knisis pipes run from. Converters are just basically "engines/dynamos" that take in a fuel (RF for example), and produce MJ at a specific efficiency rate.
    As long as all converters are configurable, you could be really harsh on the conversion (80% loss) to force multiple power systems, or really friendly (0% loss - what we basically have at the moment) so one power system is no better then another. The conversion rate would then be down to server/pack makers, not modders.
  5. boni

    boni New Member

    Putting personal opinions/past/dislikes aside for the sake of the mods. That's what I'd call professional.
    chbachman likes this.
  6. ChJees

    ChJees New Member

    Personally i prefer RF due to it's ease of use and widespread support. (Filthy casual, etc...) I am in the demographic that likes plug & play ability more than having to babysit your power infrastructure.

    With that i wish there was more unique takes on power systems; I think Ars Magica 2 and Thaumcraft 4.2 got the right ideas on how it can be done.
  7. Keridos

    Keridos New Member

    I really liked the IC2 approach of electricity and I played a long time with IC2 plus GT, but GT has quite some bugs with various mods that may very well render other mods useless because it breaks them. Since then I removed IC2 and GT from my pack and tested various other systems and the only system that currently exists and works 100% properly is aside from EU (maybe) just RF.
    UE is still in dev and was at least partly broken in latest 1.6.4 releases and Reikas mods (RotCraft etc.) have a ton of compatability issues aswell.

    Personally I have no problem with complex systems and mechanics, but my problem is that the whole construct has to at least work properly and that ultimately limits your choice on extensivily modded servers (ingame 120+ mods displayed) atm to RF (did not test IC2 though, but it was partly working in 1.6.4 only)
  8. Sm31415

    Sm31415 New Member

    This argument over power systems has been going for what feels like a thousand years, this time it is RF vs MJ, then before that it was people complaining over IC2 Enet changes, before that there were people arguing over MJ vs EU, same argument, different arguers.

    There will always be people who want the plug and play of RF style systems, even if you changed the way RF is today into something that required thought, a new power system with that ease would appear.

    Likewise there will always be people who want the thought requiring more complicated power systems. I myself am a great fan of Reikas Rotational power system, even if it does make me tear my hair out a little and I end up compromising by generating and using Rotarycraft watts, but interim transforming it to RF for transport.

    The reason we keep having these same arguments, is because all these power systems are some damn similar, they all have cables, they all burn stuff and suck up solar power and hydro power, because that's what we know.

    What I want to know, is where are the eclectic sci fi power systems? I mean we have interesting magical power systems.

    Where is the optical cables delivering light to machines to allow them to move through the momentum of light with giant solar focusing plants and satellites you can launch for 24/7 light transmission?

    Where are the streams of matter that get torn from the Earth and sent to machines so they might be directly powered by mass to energy reactions?

    Where are the biological mods where you have to create blood and give it oxygen and nutrients before having it flow round veins to various organic machines, with ore crushing done by teeth and smelting done by blaze stomachs.

    Why must we always burn coal to make some version of electricity to power something, why can we not be more creative than that?
    PierceSG, RedBoss and Arkandos like this.
  9. HeilMewTwo

    HeilMewTwo New Member

    Jesus Christ, when will this thread die. I go away for a few hours and I get spammed with notifications. It is time to end the S***storm
  10. ratchet freak

    ratchet freak Well-Known Member

    you could just unwatch the thread
    PierceSG, RedBoss and SinisterBro :3 like this.
  11. Omicron

    Omicron New Member

    ...The heck?

    I've been away for modded Minecraft and FTB for the past eight months, because at the time a KSP addiction coincided with a general feeling of a degeneration in quality of the FTB community as a whole due to modding-related drama - I noticed a good number of active FTBers going out of their way to sign up on other boards for the sole purpose of posting expletive-filled, person-attacking hate tirades against a few modders who they happened to disagree with. I felt like these forums were quickly becoming a place I did no longer want to be associated with. Thankfully, from the little peeks I occasionally took during the hiatus, things quieted down a lot and people seemed to focus more on actually playing and discussing gameplay rather than treat Minecraft and its mods' ongoing development as some sort of internet justice war with mandatory draft.

    Then I picked up modded Minecraft again, and decided to stop by at the FTB forums to chat a bit about the various new and interesting things I'm finding in today's gameplay environment. And the very first thread that stares into my face when entering the Mod Discussion forum is... this?

    Dear @Queue: in your opening post you seek to group yourself with "[t]he rest of the civil, and literate people" while simultaneously blanket-insulting every single reader that clicks on your intentionally misleading, click-baiting and irrelevant title. You condemn those that "simply shout and complain", and then proceed to make a post with nearly other content beyond shouting and complaining (in boldened, upsized fonts) about a development you do not understand, but most definitely do not like. I'm honestly disappointed to a great extent that this kind of post seems in any way, shape or form acceptable to the FTB forum moderation.

    Your post was not in any way exemplifying civility or literacy. In fact, it was hypocritical to the highest order and so far removed from what you heatedly claimed to associate yourself with that I felt the need to type up these four frustrating paragraphs solely because I feel so utterly embarrassed to actually share your opinions to a large degree.

    I too am sort of disappointed by the fact that the depth-less TE baseline implementation of the Redstone Flux API (which is capable of supporting much more) seems to become a kind of "lowest denominator standard" for everyone to fall back on because it's impossible for anyone to do it wrong. I have no desire to create RF, I have no desire to build RF power networks, and I have no desire to see more mods discontinue interesting game mechanics in favor of another "number goes in, number comes out, stuff starts working by itself" model. I'm an engineer at heart, and that's not engineering; that's just putting together a puzzle comprised of 5 pieces that can fit in any combination. In other words, it's a puzzle only in name.

    The thing is, though: that doesn't make the world end. A lowest common denominator doesn't have to be all negative. It only "dumbs down the game" if you let it - if you use nothing else. There are mods today that offer highly complex, engaging power systems, and then give you a block that converts that power into RF. Rotarycraft is just one example, and that ought to be complex enough for anyone. So what keeps a player who is desperate for depth but still wants all those RF powered machines from having it both ways? Create your power network with Rotarycraft's shaft power, and simply place that conversion block right in front of your RF machines, to convert the power on the last meters to something the machines can use. Voila, complex power system and widely-supported lowest common denominator power standard at the same time! That wasn't so hard, now was it?

    Ultimately, what we need to realize is that as long as there are people who enjoy engineering complex power systems, there will be modders who make complex power systems. And if there are not enough complex power systems - or not those that we want - then it's up to us as players to encourage mature discussion and lobby for new and improved mods to fill that need, or maybe take up the torch ourselves if we possess the necessary skillset (or the time and means to learn them).

    But it is never our task to flamebait or "shitstorm", as it were, especially not when we lack all pieces of the information puzzle. It's not our task to hate on people, least of all those who invest countless hours of their lives to provide a free product or service to the Minecraft community. It's okay to not like things, but it's not okay to be a dick about it. Don't attack the developer who picks up Redstone Flux; rather, encourage another developer to provide an alternative. Or practice what you preach, and provide one yourself.

    There's no excuse for threads like these. None.
    TomeWyrm, PierceSG, SpwnX and 8 others like this.
  12. Arkandos

    Arkandos New Member

    You should post this in Suggest a mod.
  13. Kill-Joy

    Kill-Joy New Member

    I personally won't care. We all used MJ and EU before this, and now we're using RF. Now something new will happen after RF, and we'll move on, maybe create a new shitstorm in the process. Sure, RF will not be the best power system, but EU and MJ weren't the best either. Something will come along, and everything will change. We might be the new guard now, but we'll join the old guard then.
  14. Queue

    Queue New Member

    Okay get your last responses in. Shitstorm is coming to a close.
    Padfoote and Gideonseymour like this.
  15. Gideonseymour

    Gideonseymour Relatable Gamer Trusted User Retired Staff

    Thank god.
  16. Queue

    Queue New Member

    The plan was from the beginning was to lock this thread after I got what I felt I needed in terms of a good community response
    Gideonseymour likes this.
  17. Golrith

    Golrith Over-Achiever Trusted User

    What? 2 pages of useful content, and 19 pages of dribble? :p
    RedBoss likes this.
  18. HeilMewTwo

    HeilMewTwo New Member

    :eek: We had an entire 2 pages of useful content?!?!?!?!
  19. Queue

    Queue New Member

    :p you will see
  20. Golrith

    Golrith Over-Achiever Trusted User

    Yep. CJs and King Lemmings input makes about a page, then I'm sure scraping up the dregs would make a 2nd page :p
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