[1.7.10][LISTED] InfiTech 2 Modpack v3.2.21 [HQM][GregTech balanced hard-mode modpack]

[Jason McRay]

I might consider lowering the power usage of forestry to bit reasonable levels. Something between normal and hard settings

 

[MigukNamja]

I wish there was a more 'renewable way of making fertiliser/

There's a bee for that, you know ;-)

However, one Apatite vein is probably all you need for the entire game.

 

[Grove]

There's a bee for that, you know ;-)

However, one Apatite vein is probably all you need for the entire game.

Oooo there's a bed for that?!! Nice!! Im definitely looking into that

I've found two apatite veins so far so hopefully that's all I need although atm I'm eating through the charcoal. Got a nice overflow so far though


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[MigukNamja]

If you're using the GT Steel Boiler, it is a charcoal-eating beast for sure.

If you're using the eIO machines, stick a grey, red, or green capacitor (the small item, not the battery block) into its single upgrade slot. Besides improving the speed or power output, it improves the efficiency as well.

 

[Grove]

I might consider lowering the power usage of forestry to bit reasonable levels. Something between normal and hard settings

Others might be able to say why this is a good thing but here's my argument.

Because of the power requirements I could only get the thermonic fab to work with an enderIO capacitor and that's a good thing.

1. It forces me to look into RF generation
2. Forces me to use other mods in the game and thing about other long term plans of how to make the items needed for the farm.

In turn this makes the game longer, harder, an IMHO more fun because it forces me to look for alternatives and come up with more designs or ways that this can be done.

an example of this (if I remember rightly) is that you can use a assembling machine but it needs to be an MV assembler instead, either forcing you to look into other ways to power the thermonic fab or upgrading to MV - which in turn means finding a better more stable power source for the EFB which is a whole new bucket of fish!


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[Jason McRay]

Others might be able to say why this is a good thing but here's my argument.

Because of the power requirements I could only get the thermonic fab to work with an enderIO capacitor and that's a good thing.

1. It forces me to look into RF generation
2. Forces me to use other mods in the game and thing about other long term plans of how to make the items needed for the farm.

In turn this makes the game longer, harder, an IMHO more fun because it forces me to look for alternatives and come up with more designs or ways that this can be done.

an example of this (if I remember rightly) is that you can use a assembling machine but it needs to be an MV assembler instead, either forcing you to look into other ways to power the thermonic fab or upgrading to MV - which in turn means finding a better more stable power source for the EFB which is a whole new bucket of fish!


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Hmm... thats a good argument

 

[MigukNamja]

Yeah, I have mixed feeling about Forestry hard mode. On the one hand, it keeps the focus on GT, which is a good thing. On the other hand, it effectively limits Forestry power to wood/charcoal/plank power and excludes ethanol.

I had fun being challenged with how to power the Forestry machines, but the 17 * 4 = 68 MJ/t = 170 EU/t Fermenter makes Ethanol very, very difficult to come up energy positive. Unfortunately, there's not a config to lower the power of just the Fermenter AFAIK and neither Minetweaker nor ModTweaker have Forestry support.

And, I could increase the Railcraft and Forestry energy gain from Ethanol, but I'm not sure that will help GT. But, GT 5 energy production is so inefficient anyways...

Will do some more testing to see if increasing Forestry configs for Ethanol power affects GT or not.

 

[Pyure]

I think a concern is that currently there's no way to make positive-energy ethanol.

I ran my own series of tests using Miguk's uber-saplings and I encountered similar results. If anyone else is able to produce energy via ethanol/biofuel I'd love to hear the setup.

 

[Grove]

Yeah, I have mixed feeling about Forestry hard mode. On the one hand, it keeps the focus on GT, which is a good thing. On the other hand, it effectively limits Forestry power to wood/charcoal/plank power and excludes ethanol.

I had fun being challenged with how to power the Forestry machines, but the 17 * 4 = 68 MJ/t = 170 EU/t Fermenter makes Ethanol very, very difficult to come up energy positive. Unfortunately, there's not a config to lower the power of just the Fermenter AFAIK and neither Minetweaker nor ModTweaker have Forestry support.

And, I could increase the Railcraft and Forestry energy gain from Ethanol, but I'm not sure that will help GT. But, GT 5 energy production is so inefficient anyways...

Will do some more testing to see if increasing Forestry configs for Ethanol power affects GT or not.

On this hand I also agree because as we progress down the tech tree and need more energy things like ethanol should give much more energy for the buck.

Is there any way we can increase the 'output' of ethanol to make it worth it in GT machines at least?


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[MigukNamja]

I'll also add that the Big Reactors Turbine - when config's properly for this pack - is a 'better' way of converting steam to RF. The best coils I can find are gold. With a Big Reactors energy output nerfed from 1.0 to 0.6, 256mB/t of steam produces exactly 1000 RF/t (100 MJ/t) of power @ 1800rpm. The same steam into RC ISEs would produce only 51.2 MJ/t . I chose 0.6 because I wanted the larger, Tungstensteel-gating, Cyanite-gating, to be exactly twice as efficient as RC ISEs.

@Jason McRay - Here's my bigreactor.zs (that's basically a port of your Infitech 1 version !) and my BigReactors.cfg .

 

[Pyure]

On this hand I also agree because as we progress down the tech tree and need more energy things like ethanol should give much more energy for the buck.
Is there any way we can increase the 'output' of ethanol to make it worth it in GT machines at least?

I can't think of anything other than an extra-step recipe that converts something or other into biofuel. I don't think we're able to adjust the power output of the fuel at all.

 

[Grove]

I think a concern is that currently there's no way to make positive-energy ethanol.

I ran my own series of tests using Miguk's uber-saplings and I encountered similar results. If anyone else is able to produce energy via ethanol/biofuel I'd love to hear the setup.

I did have this problem in the earlier version of the pack on the old map. I thought it was just me so it's a relief to here others are having the issue as well


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[MigukNamja]

On this hand I also agree because as we progress down the tech tree and need more energy things like ethanol should give much more energy for the buck.

Is there any way we can increase the 'output' of ethanol to make it worth it in GT machines at least?

Yeah, I was all stoked I had gone through all of Binnie's new machines, had bred all the trees with the cool traits, and made the "super sapling", only to find out...wow...

@Pyure and I think the Ethanol nerf-bat came out swinging back in the day when spamming RC 36HP boilers was all the rage. Since Forestry has a hard time affecting charcoal output, it nerfed the hell out of its own Ethanol. Railcraft jumped in, too, and nerfed the hell out of Ethanol, but didn't touch charcoal much. It's not that 1 mod did 1 thing, but rather three mods all nerfed Ethanol:

Forestry
Railcraft
Buildcraft

The result is that Ethanol is 4x less efficient than fuel on base/default settings, and that doesn't include Forestry HARD mode which jacks up the Fermenter cost.

I will tweak some Forestry settings tonight and will see if that affects GT. Would be cool to keep Forestry HARD, but simply raise the output from a single bucket of Ethanol.

 

[Pyure]

I did have this problem in the earlier version of the pack on the old map. I thought it was just me so it's a relief to here others are having the issue as well


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Yeah its a tricky problem because once upon a time, tree-farms were absolutely everyone's sole source of energy. Granted many people didn't even bother with the biofuel since charcoal was enough, but if they did bother, they had godlike power reserves and zero reason to look at any other power solutions.

@Pyure and I think the Ethanol nerf-bat came out swinging back in the day when spamming RC 36HP boilers was all the rage

Woops, yeah, what he said faster than me

 

[MigukNamja]

I can't think of anything other than an extra-step recipe that converts something or other into biofuel. I don't think we're able to adjust the power output of the fuel at all.

Well, one doesn't *have* to use the GT boiler to make steam. The RC boiler seems to work well, and that is very much tweakable.

Railcraft Defaults (in this pack)

        boiler {
            #
            # adjust the heat value of BioFuel in a Boiler
            #             
            D:biofuelMultiplier=1.0

            #
            # adjust the heat value of Fuel in a Boiler
            #
            D:fuelMultiplier=1.0
        }

Forestry HARD mode (in this pack)

#####################
# FUEL            
#####################
# modifies the energy provided by ethanol in a Bio Generator.
fuel.ethanol.generator=0.5
# modifies the energy provided by ethanol in Buildcraft Combustion Engines.
fuel.ethanol.combustion=0.5
# modifies the energy provided by Biomass in a Bio Generator.
fuel.biomass.generator=0.5
# modifies the energy provided by Biomass in Biogas Engines.
fuel.biomass.biogas=0.5

 

[Grove]

Yeah, I was all stoked I had gone through all of Binnie's new machines, had bred all the trees with the cool traits, and made the "super sapling", only to find out...wow...

@Pyure and I think the Ethanol nerf-bat came out swinging back in the day when spamming RC 36HP boilers was all the rage. Since Forestry has a hard time affecting charcoal output, it nerfed the hell out of its own Ethanol. Railcraft jumped in, too, and nerfed the hell out of Ethanol, but didn't touch charcoal much. It's not that 1 mod did 1 thing, but rather three mods all nerfed Ethanol:

Forestry
Railcraft
Buildcraft

The result is that Ethanol is 4x less efficient than fuel on base/default settings, and that doesn't include Forestry HARD mode which jacks up the Fermenter cost.

I will tweak some Forestry settings tonight and will see if that affects GT. Would be cool to keep Forestry HARD, but simply raise the output from a single bucket of Ethanol.

Seriously please do let us know the outcome. This feels like something that does need changing or adjusting. To go through a that to find out it's basically useless, to me, is gut wrenching :/

The more work, time and effort you put into something the better the returns should be. Otherwise what is the point in doing anything.

That's why gregtechs power generation this time around has confused me, the more you go up the tech tree, the less efficient things become, eg, steam turbines. That just encourages the spamming of smaller, easier power generation than a nice big complex machine of awesome-ness.


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[Pyure]

FYI, I called Greg out on the "decrease" in efficiency in more advanced machines. He told me that between LV and HV (skipping MV) HV will always be more efficient because you cannot spam LV machines compactly enough that lossiness isn't a problem.

I haven't tested this but it actually might be fun to test

 

[MigukNamja]

That's why gregtechs power generation this time around has confused me, the more you go up the tech tree, the less efficient things become, eg, steam turbines. That just encourages the spamming of smaller, easier power generation than a nice big complex machine of awesome-ness.

Yup, and his logic is rather strange. He's assuming you have fairly long power runs and that combining multiple smaller generators/turbines over lossy wire will be less efficient than using a higher tier.

And, the Steam Turbines are incredibly disappointing. When I did a simple comparison using Ethanol in:

GT Steel Boiler + GT Steam Turbine

vs.

GT Diesel Generator

...the diesel generator was between 5x and 6x more efficient ! BTW, the tool-tip that shows "90% Efficient" for the Basic Diesel Generator is exactly correct when compared with Forestry Biofuel Generator. I learned just how inefficient the GT Steel Boiler and Steam Turbines are. The RC boiler is waaaaay more efficient, as is the RC Steam Turbine. However, one could rightly argue the RC Steam Turbine is *too* efficient. It does feel a little cheaty in this pack to get close to 800 EU/t from a single GT boiler running on charcoal.[DOUBLEPOST=1412606062][/DOUBLEPOST]

FYI, I called Greg out on the "decrease" in efficiency in more advanced machines. He told me that between LV and HV (skipping MV) HV will always be more efficient because you cannot spam LV machines compactly enough that lossiness isn't a problem.

I haven't tested this but it actually might be fun to test

Greg is quite wrong based upon my tests and upon UNG_god's video. Spamming is either slightly (diesel) or significantly (steam) more efficient.

• 1x Turbo Steam Turbine (512 EU/t) : 200k EU per stack of charcoal into GT Steel
• 4x Advanced (4 x 128 = 512 EU/t) : 240k EU per stack
• 16x Basic (16 x 32 = 512 EU/t) : 296k EU per stack - "Not bad, not bad really !"

To be complete, the RC Steam Turbine is double the Basic:

• 2x RC Steam Turbines (400 EU/t) : 600k EU per stack of charcoal into GT Steel

The logic, I think, behind why Greg's steam consumers are - at most - half as efficient as the RC version - is the RC version requires replacing the rotor. But, 2x is ridiculous for something that's relatively cheap/easy to make. By that point in the game, steel is cheap/easy.

 

[Grove]

Well, one doesn't *have* to use the GT boiler to make steam. The RC boiler seems to work well, and that is very much tweakable.

        boiler {
            #
            # adjust the heat value of BioFuel in a Boiler
            #               
            D:biofuelMultiplier=1.0

            #
            # adjust the heat value of Fuel in a Boiler
            #
            D:fuelMultiplier=1.0
        }

Nice! That should be changed IMHO because if you've done so much to achieve ethanol then you should be able to see the rewards. Ethanol should ways be more powerful/productive than charcoal.

For example, (an extreme example but an example nevertheless!) take NASA. They use liquid fuel for booster rockets as they have a much better fuel/power ratio. They don't tend to use solid fuel rockets these days as they are fast less efficient compared to liquid fuel.

To me liquid fuel being more powerful is more realistic as that's exactly what it's like in the real world although we would have to keep some sort of balance and not make it into uber fuel!


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[MigukNamja]

Huh. While editing Forestry's HARD.conf, I discovered something new : HARD nerfs the Fermenter sapling output by 2x ! When combines with the 4x energy cost, that makes the Fermenter a whopping 8x less efficient !

In comparison, a Mahoe (the best) sapling is 6x better than a vanilla sapling. This means that even with Mahoe, you're doing worse than a NORMAL player with a vanilla sapling. Sad, eh ?

I've also restored some of the squeezer efficiency, doubling the HARD value. I will test this tonight:

Spoiler

minecraft@server:~/Infinity2/config/forestry/gamemodes$ diff Dave_HARD_conf.txt Orig_HARD_conf.txt | grep '='
< fermenter.yield.sapling=100
> fermenter.yield.sapling=50
< fermenter.yield.cactus=25
> fermenter.yield.cactus=10
< fermenter.yield.wheat=25
> fermenter.yield.wheat=10
< fermenter.yield.mushroom=25
> fermenter.yield.mushroom=10
< fermenter.yield.cane=25
> fermenter.yield.cane=10
< fuel.ethanol.generator=1.0
> fuel.ethanol.generator=0.5
< fuel.ethanol.combustion=1.0
> fuel.ethanol.combustion=0.5
< fuel.biomass.generator=1.0
> fuel.biomass.generator=0.5
< fuel.biomass.biogas=1.0
> fuel.biomass.biogas=0.5
< squeezer.liquid.apple=400
> squeezer.liquid.apple=200

...and I also don't like Ethanol being 4x worse then fuel. Just 2x as worse seems fair to me. I'll test this as well:

Spoiler

minecraft@server:~/Infinity2/config/railcraft$ diff Dave_railcraft_cfg.txt Orig_railcraft_cfg.txt | grep '='
< D:biofuelMultiplier=2.0
> D:biofuelMultiplier=1.0

The goal is to keep Ethanol worse then Fuel, but make it net energy positive. And, since Forestry HARD mode does *not* nerf charcoal, I don't believe Ethanol should be nerfed.

Forestry HARD requires 4x as much energy.Between the 2x Fermenter and Squeezer and the 2x power, 2x * 2x = 4x, which restores Ethanol back to parity, while keeping the high energy cost of the Forestry machines. Does that seem fair ?

Alternatively, we could put the full 4x restoration into the Fermenter and Squeezer:

Spoiler

< fermenter.yield.sapling=200
> fermenter.yield.sapling=50
< squeezer.liquid.apple=800
> squeezer.liquid.apple=200

...but I don't know of a way of affecting the Forestry Still or GT Distiller, which is also a significant energy consumer.