IC2 is slowly dying out ?

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KirinDave

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Honestly, I'm back and forth on moving away from the "engine" paradigm. Basically engines are sort of cpu-inefficient, even as optimized as TE's are. I am adding some new gen though.

If you need testers, I have a whole server full of gleeful Guinea Pigs who would literally assault me if I didn't ask for them. They would attack me if I didn't write this, both figuratively and literally given half the chance. Sometimes we update the modpack 5 times a week to get around beta bugs. :)

Sigh... Dave, Is there any small possibility that somehow UE will not be removed from the pack? I just don't know other packs that use UE with the other good mods like TE and so on. I can make one by myself (actually I downloaded Volts and added a bunch of mods in it), but that's not... that good.

I wouldn't worry too much. Something to point out: TE is probably the best mod in terms of performance, so everyone else will be slower. I haven't gone seeking permissions yet because we''re still ironing out the pack, but to be honest I don't think that an obscure and hideous power pipe is something anyone would say should disqualify something from the pack.

Biome O Plenty is MUCH slower than EBXL and I suspect it has a memory leak. I can prove the slowness and even talk a bit about why. We still still use it and I heard Forgecraft 1 is now a BoP server. Because it gives a better experience. We've been slogging it out and reporting bugs with DimDoors back when you could kill worlds with it. Because DimDoors is an awesome idea and not every modder can be a fantastic coder.

And all that said, what do I put in its place? Maybe Ars, IC2 and GT is enough... I dunno.
 
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RavynousHunter

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To be fair, there is no way to rationally convert UE to EU. It is not possible. A single basic solar panel is a 50eu/t power source in the default conversion.

Tis true, its just irritating to see after a while, ya know? I'm sure there's somebody out there that thinks vanilla cobble generators are overpowered because of some moronic reason.
 

Poppycocks

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On ore processing

We can agree to disagree on the plausibility of all these ore processing tools. I think the pulverizer is at least as implausible as the grinder as the mixer and the enrichment chamber. It's technobabbble and we should remember that is all it is. . And the machines are not really identical in UE; the Purification chamber is the final tier of the construction and it has power and materials costs that place it firmly there. Mekanism has a progression and it's not the Best Progression but it's not somehow absurd compared to the "WE PUSH REAL HARD AND THAT IS MORE EFFICIENT" or "THIS GRINDER USES MERCURY AND THEREFORE PRODUCES MORE OF THE SAME MATERIAL THAN IF YOU USED WATER" or even the more subtly implausible furnace mechanic.

Sure, real-life grinders and treatment techniques exist and they do resemble some of what Greg does. That doesn't mean they're somehow more plausible in a world where energy is not conserved and magic is a provable phenomenon.

In the end, and this is My Personal Opinion™, the really fun part is the automation steps for the system. GT, and Mekanism are equally hard to automate (especially with the 3.0* changes) and therefore to me it's all the same: gather an amplifier for your ore process. I'm not sure why I like TE as much as I do given this, honestly. I think because what TE has done is made ore processing sort of... wrapped up in your normal minecraft building skills. Like you can build complex pipelines if you want and it feels the same as building a house, just with some extra steps; and it looks good at the end to boot.

Overall, I just don't really see much more design space for ore processing in an industrialized context. I feel like Mekanism has enough to differentiate itself at least as much as Gregtech does, but I agree that I wish we saw even more new stuff. This is why I keep rooting for MineChem to start evolving. Right now it's boring, but it has crazy potential to be the whackiest/funniest/most intricate way to do ore processing.
The fact that similarity to reality doesn't make for good gameplay, or isn't important is plain false. Some things you can accept as long as they are consistent, some thing break your suspension of disbelief or just feel weird / ugly. Magic for example is easy to believe because we are superstitious people, but I still meet players that destroy floating pillars because they "hate them", they're perfectly fine with it if they stick an arcane levitator or ten on the bottom of a platform though. Magic is believable, floating pillars aren't, pillars suspended by magic are once again. I also see people consistently call floating trees "ugly", the inexplicable draw towards treecapacitator stems from this also. This is how the human mind is wired and it is important from a game design perspective. Gold amalgamation is a real process where you use mercury to filter out fine grains of gold which would otherwise be washed off by water with the junk. And saying that that's stupid just because we've got no energy conservation in minecraft is a logical falacy. It is important to strive for such goals as it gives the player a better gameplay on a deeper level than they themselves recognize. You just gotta keep in mind what's reasonable and fun in the given system, and that is, therefore it should be that way.



On Powergen

Basically all the new mods get brought in line and start out out-of-line. It's no surprise this happens given what UE's process evolved into. ComplexMachines is a little OP right now; give it time. I submit that the combination of Mekanism and AtomicScience is probably only peered in terms of a power system with TE+BuildCraft+RailCraft, and that's why I wanted it. There are plenty of things to pick on, but it's there and it's good.
By which you're trying to say that it's suffering from the same illness that IC did before it got stale.

But yeah, IC needs better power generation which is gated by difficulty, not bullshit. UE has that, and I already conceded that it wins in that regard.



On A Better Ic2

Actually, you know.. If I really think right now the mod shaping up to be this is Minefactory Reloaded. If it had a power system and some ore processing... in many ways it spiritually aligns with the sort of whacky and over-the-top industrialized feel that IC2 has. It's really taken off this year.

The point I was trying to make earlier. Lava fabricator for example. TE is at least trying to be consistent with how minecraft logic works. You mix lava and cobble in a specific way and you get endless cobble, it isn't hard to believe that the igneous extruders do the same as both need to go in. Lava makes cobble, therefore it's logical to assume that cobble makes lava when you heat it up sufficiently. This is what the magma cruicible does and I like that.

The fabricator magics up lava out of think air using energy. I do not like that. Don't get me wrong, I like that MFR is giving us, I just don't like the package. It's got a bit of an obsidian tools vibe to it.
Holy shit. I totally flashed back to ye olden days. Back then I played technic and ic2 was my everything. I was so convinced that this buildcraft thing would never get anywhere and that MJ was a horrible power system. Wow, it's funny how things work out like that isn't it?
Buildcraft is open source.

That is all.
 

RavynousHunter

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Just for the record, I didn't say that realism makes for bad gameplay or is unimportant. Just that a balance must be kept between realism, game balance, and enjoyment.
 

Golrith

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Biome O Plenty is MUCH slower than EBXL and I suspect it has a memory leak. I can prove the slowness and even talk a bit about why.
Really? I'm finding much better performance with BoP. I can enter one of it's large tree forests (such as Redwood) and not suffer performance hits.
 
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Poppycocks

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Really? I'm finding much better performance with BoP. I can enter one of it's large tree forests (such as Redwood) and not suffer performance hits.
Different problems.

We're having problems with chunk generation although that can be caused by any of our worldgen mods. BoP Is the suspect... well because it does the actual world. Next line are underground biomes, then Natura, then perhaps Ars Magicka.

Or the combination thereof.

Could be CoFH as well, but that's highly unlikely.
 

DoctorOr

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Really? I'm finding much better performance with BoP. I can enter one of it's large tree forests (such as Redwood) and not suffer performance hits.

There's difference between client rendering lag, and server world generation lag. Your client lag is all you, and doesn't affect others. Server lag will, and when multiple people are all generating chunks, it can grind a server to a halt.
 

xSINZx

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IC2 is Dying Out?
Better Not be! Only just built my first reactor. And my first Bank of MFSU's
 

Petrus

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You win this one, for now, UE wins in the generator department, mostly because the IC system is utterly shitty compared to that with it's "Midgame? What midgame?!" approach.

Yes, except UE is just as bad; it simply starts mid-tier and ignores low voltage, ironically, rather than ignoring mid. Mekanism includes a 60 volt transformer, but I have absolutely no idea why, because the very first machine you can build (the Coal Generator) defaults to 120v, and every other non-generator block that I know of does as well. It's silly, because the hydro outputs to 240, which means I have to step it down, yet there is no sane reason for it to do so, because no machine runs at that voltage, and the battery box won't accept it either. Mekanism has tiered energy cubes, but there is only one batbox, and it sucks.

Still, I agree with you about IC2. Ignoring medium voltage was definitely also on my checklist of annoyances where that mod was concerned.

However the problem is that most generators in UE have been getting nerfed consistently and what you speak of might be gone sooner than later. I'm sure I could raise several valid points here too, but I didn't dig deep enough quite yet.

The only thing that never seems to get nerfed is lava; and I suspect that that is because virtually nobody uses it, comparitively speaking. I always have myself, but I've only ever seen DW20 use it once.

No, the way IC does it is tedious and superfluous and stupid to boot, the mechanic is very sympathetic though. And I honestly wish that more techy mods employed it. I'm a motherfucking engineer, I wanna disassemble my fucking machines with a fucking wrench. Is that so much to ask?

Actually, for me engineering means adhering to the KISS principle first and foremost; which in turn means that if a claw hammer (or any other generic tool) works to dismantle something, then that is more useful. Good design is as generic as possible, IMHO; because that way it is as versatile and robust as possible as well. I'd recommend reading some Buckminster Fuller, perhaps. He was very much against specialisation.
 

Petrus

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Thermal Expansion Ore Processing
Pros:
  • Smaller overall footprint space-wise due to configurable item I/O.

Agreed. Automating them is simplicity itself as well; at least on the output end.

Powered by MJ, which requires a few less materials than IC2 does to get started with (ie: Stirling engines).

I will admit that I greatly enjoy using Mekanism's energy cubes as an adapter between my hydros and TE machines as well, and then abusing the UE->BC power ratio. That is the sort of thing that I should not speak too loudly about, however; because I've noticed that fun of that kind gets nerfed with prejudice as soon as it is discovered.

In all seriousness, however, the basic energy cube holds about 20% more energy than a TE redstone energy cell, but seems to do roughly the same amount of work. Forestry's machines in particular are so fearfully inefficient that it really doesn't make much difference.

At default settings (for BC, TE, and IC2; taking Power Converters into account), BC/TE engines produce more power and do more per unit of fuel than their comparable IC2/GT counterparts.

Yep; and in turn, BC/TE machines are less efficient in terms of consumption (not generation, so much) as their UE counterparts. As Poppycocks said from memory, a mod's popularity seems to be proportional to the degree that it has been nerfed, and thus the inefficiency of its' power use/generation. UE is still vaguely alternative, from what I've been able to gather, and so the full degree of balance obsession has yet to be visited upon it. ;)

Machines have no capacity to be upgraded. If you want to work faster, you'll have to build more machines.

Aside from just liking UE, this is part of the reason why I have Mekanism installed alongside TE. Its' machines are extremely upgradeable, and the system is much simpler than IC's, as well.

Early game power requires a fair bit of attentiveness, so as to not overload your conductive pipes.

Agreed, and this is bothersome.

Most machines require gold in some way, which is sometimes difficult to acquire.

As I said to Poppycocks earlier, this is also why I install Cogs of the Machine now as well, for early gold doubling, so that the progression curve to TE is less steep. My path now is punching trees -> Cogs -> TE -> UE.

Multiple power cable types, which can be confusing to newcomers.

To a degree UE suffers from this as well, (copper, silver, HV, superconductive) but in reality, wire upgrades are much more a want than a need. Copper has a very high amperage tolerance, and the only real reason to upgrade is if you either want to run a very long length of cable for some reason, or want to reduce your resistance to get better efficiency. None of the more advanced wires than copper are needed for recipes either, to my knowledge.

I've not messed around with UE or Factorization ore processing, the former because I've not tacked it on to my Ultimate Pack yet, and the latter because I've just...never gotten around to it, but am considering doing so on my current map, assuming NEI can stop crashing my fucking game at random.

I'd encourage looking at UE when you get the chance. It seems to have one of the more detailed and realistic power simulations in Minecraft so far, and as mentioned, the nerf bat hasn't hit it too severely yet either, although that is changing, unfortunately.
qm.gif


However, I would like to see less emphasis on SMP balance, and more emphasis put on making a solid, well-working core experience for the individual player.

Amen, amen, a thousand times, amen. It will not happen though, sadly. Minecraft's single player demographic have been considered second class citizens for a very long time now, and that is not going to change; especially when you consider that all of the Forgecraft developers in particular are avowedly in the SMP camp. As I have said before, I would be infinitely happier myself if SMP did not exist for this game; I have never played a single computer game of any kind where multiplayer (particularly PvP) was not a virulent sociological disease for the most part, and Minecraft is no exception.
 
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Petrus

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(This ended up being sufficiently long that I had to split it into a second post. As you can perhaps tell, I'm fairly passionate about this subject)

Balance for the sake of balance does not make a good mod.

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/intermediates-guide.html

Balance obsession happens primarily because of competition and epeen. A lot of multiplayer types tend to use games (including this one) as vicarious sources of self-worth, and deluding yourself that you have real skill with a competitive game after your competition has been nerfed into the ground, is a lot easier than actually developing said skill and using it. So there is constant, adamant paranoia to make sure that nobody has even the slightest advantage over anyone else, in terms of game mechanics.

I know I suck at this game; I don't try and hide it, and even if I did, whenever I play vanilla with either my younger brother or anyone else, I am reminded of it very quickly. I don't, however, think that anyone else's fun should be nerfed or spoiled in order to compensate for my own comparitive lack of skill. It actually causes me to do the opposite; I look for the most ludicrously overpowered mechanics I can, most of the time, and leverage them like Tony Stark's suit, so that I can still have fun and get stuff done in the game, despite said inherent lack of ability. That, in fact, is the entire reason why everything constantly being nerfed more and more and more frustrates me.

However this is, I suspect, a large part of the reason for things like the Gregtech controversy, as well. There are a very large number of people in the contemporary Western world who, for a wide variety of reasons, lead offline lives consisting exclusively of almost suicide-inducing levels of misery. Generally during the day, they are too busy ensuring that they do not starve, in order to find anything which will allow them to feel genuinely positive about themselves; so they devote what miniscule amounts of leisure time they are afforded, to the less tangible objectives within Maslow's Hierarchy.

Hence, the reason why the gaming community consists almost exclusively of individuals who use said games as a means of obtaining narcissistic supply. Gregtech is, as mentioned, pretty much the quintessential example of what I'm talking about, here; you get to feel like a God if you can master the level of complexity inherent in building the machines within said mod, and Greg gets to view himself as a God for having written it.

You've got to weigh between reasonable challenge, shit making sense, and most critically of all, making sure the thing is fun to begin with. That's one of the reasons I loved XyCraft, even before the machines started coming online, while others were bitching constantly about it. Its fun, it looks cool, and the machines all seem to be built on that grandest of design principles: It Just Works. Liquid storage alone would keep XyCraft in any of my packs, because there's not all this moronic, arbitrary bullshit of having to make a rolling machine, roll up iron plates, make the 3 different requisite block types, and fit them into a few preset sizes. You just get shit you can see holding liquids, like stone, make it between 3x3x3 and 12x12x12, tack a valve or two on there, and hit the valve with your fist. Bam, job done, storage is ready, and you can spend more time using the shit you store, as opposed to dicking around building the whole damn storage contraption in the first place.

Again, I agree with you, one million percent. The problem, however, is the fact that most other people apparently don't.

Another case in point: Railcraft boilers. Realistic? Sure. Enjoyable? For me...not so much. Partly because they're ludicrously inefficient, and partly because they're a little too realistic.

You even run into this sort of thinking at times in the case of renewable forms of power generation which are more powerful in the real world, (such as geothermal, for instance) but which get nerfed mercilessly in their in-game implementations, because of developers who assume that >50% generation efficiency is always realistic, or that even if it isn't, everything must still be utterly crippled, in order to supposedly make sure that we've always got something to do.

A lot of mod authors need to start realising that having to shovel more coal into a boiler because you've given me a crappy ratio as a balancing mechanism is not fun. The correct approach is to give me a decent ratio, so that I can get my power system established, and then actually create something else after that for me to do. Hell, I'm not even like most players apparently, in the sense that for me, Minecraft is primarily about making my own fun. I've noticed that a lot of the thinking here seems to revolve around the idea of structured minigames, (things being "gated," or "tiered," etc) when that is not what I want.

I want to build ore processing, yes; but I don't want that in itself to have the sorts of mechanics that other types of structured games do, in that sense, which as Poppycocks says, is why some mods have things like five different tiers of gear which all add to each other. Base it on real-world engineering; don't make it hard purely for the sake of making it hard. We the players can do that ourselves.
 

power crystals

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The point I was trying to make earlier. Lava fabricator for example. TE is at least trying to be consistent with how minecraft logic works. You mix lava and cobble in a specific way and you get endless cobble, it isn't hard to believe that the igneous extruders do the same as both need to go in. Lava makes cobble, therefore it's logical to assume that cobble makes lava when you heat it up sufficiently. This is what the magma cruicible does and I like that.

The fabricator magics up lava out of think air using energy. I do not like that. Don't get me wrong, I like that MFR is giving us, I just don't like the package. It's got a bit of an obsidian tools vibe to it.

The lava fab and its partner the oil fab exist because they used to exist (remember, MFR/PowerConverters are really old), and I don't exactly want to make them work the same way as TE's because what would be the point? TE already does that. So instead it's a gameplay decision thing: the magma crucible is much cheaper to run (only a profit on netherrack, though) but the lava fab requires no extra work.

That said, I can understand why you might dislike the idea, which is why I let you disable the machine recipes for ones you don't want in your game.
 

Hyperme

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I think the problem with most Minecraft mods is an attempt to balance against time, when time is not an internally restricted resource in Minecraft. And if you balance a game against external restrictions, you are bad at designing games. Looking at Gregtech, I don't see much that adds difficulty, just length. Other than machines needing a constant energy input, most Gregtech 'difficulty' just involves waiting some arbitrary amount of time for your ElectricGregTechGermanLanguageArtifactizor to do a thing. Then you repeat this 10 times to get a pile of AdvancedCakeComponents and TelfonPlatedPlates so you can make a GregTechSuperDeluxCake. I don't even know how someone can find this appealing game play. It's grind for grind's sake. Also would it kill Greg to ask someone to fix up his items names? It might be acceptable in German to mash a bunch of words together to make a new word, but in English we try very hard to give the illusion of having standards.

Anyhow, as for players going 'oh man i <3 hard game play, give me grind' it seems that these people don't play games that aren't Minceraft, since otherwise they'd maybe go 'wait this isn't hard Super Meat Boy is hard this is just moving and waiting'. Someone should make a mod where after a certain amount of time the space zombies attack, and maybe the time will actually be important.

There was a point here, but I might of lost it. Eh it will be back.
 

southernfriedbb

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Also would it kill Greg to ask someone to fix up his items names? It might be acceptable in German to mash a bunch of words together to make a new word, but in English we try very hard to give the illusion of having standards.

This may be more due to the fact that he is a programmer than him being German. I do it all the time, because FooBarBaz is a valid variable name and Foo bar baz is not. It occasionally can bleed over into real life...
 

PonyKuu

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I wouldn't worry too much. Something to point out: TE is probably the best mod in terms of performance, so everyone else will be slower. I haven't gone seeking permissions yet because we''re still ironing out the pack, but to be honest I don't think that an obscure and hideous power pipe is something anyone would say should disqualify something from the pack.

Biome O Plenty is MUCH slower than EBXL and I suspect it has a memory leak. I can prove the slowness and even talk a bit about why. We still still use it and I heard Forgecraft 1 is now a BoP server. Because it gives a better experience. We've been slogging it out and reporting bugs with DimDoors back when you could kill worlds with it. Because DimDoors is an awesome idea and not every modder can be a fantastic coder.

And all that said, what do I put in its place? Maybe Ars, IC2 and GT is enough... I dunno.
Oh, so you are not instantly EX-TER-MI-NA-TING UE? Phew. So, my hopes are not broken :3
And does using vanilla UE copper cable reduce load on server? Oh, wait... That's a Mekanism issue, not Electric Expansion... Wires are from Electric Expansion, right?
Now I'm confused... So, issue is not the wires, it's generators, cubes and machines?
 

Zjarek_S

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I think the problem with most Minecraft mods is an attempt to balance against time, when time is not an internally restricted resource in Minecraft. And if you balance a game against external restrictions, you are bad at designing games. Looking at Gregtech, I don't see much that adds difficulty, just length. Other than machines needing a constant energy input, most Gregtech 'difficulty' just involves waiting some arbitrary amount of time for your ElectricGregTechGermanLanguageArtifactizor to do a thing.
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Well, it is grind for automation sake. I don't really have problem with speed of centrifuges, because I run them automatically. Just put materials in input chest (manually or automatically) and receive output in the future. Plan it better and make sufficient number of machines. Quartz grindstone is for example a lot worse (excluding turtle exploit), I had patience to grind only one ore before not using it ever again and putting everything in slag furnace at very early game.
 

AlanEsh

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Well, it is grind for automation sake. I don't really have problem with speed of centrifuges, because I run them automatically. Just put materials in input chest (manually or automatically) and receive output in the future. Plan it better and make sufficient number of machines. Quartz grindstone is for example a lot worse (excluding turtle exploit), I had patience to grind only one ore before not using it ever again and putting everything in slag furnace at very early game.
Not sure how you can compare very early game manual machinery like Quartz Grinder to an automated machine like the centrifuge. My first three machines are the Pulverizer, Powered Furnace, and a Steam Engine... I'm not sure how the Quartz Grinder is even on anyone's radar as a viable tool. The 10 ores you save by manually grinding for TE recipe components is reeeedeeeeculously unimportant, even on the first day of Survival.
 
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Hoff

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Not sure how you can compare very early game manual machinery like Quartz Grinder to an automated machine like the centrifuge. My first three machines are the Pulverizer, Powered Furnace, and a Steam Engine... I'm not sure how the Quartz Grinder is even on anyone's radar as a viable tool. The 10 ores you save by manually grinding for TE recipe components is reeeedeeeeculously unimportant, even on the first day of Survival.
Because efficiency isn't everything? I enjoy using the grinder because I don't get into building machines until several days into a world and instead generally take my time playing vanilla and building my house.
 

AlanEsh

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Because efficiency isn't everything? I enjoy using the grinder because I don't get into building machines until several days into a world and instead generally take my time playing vanilla and building my house.
That's cool, i just didn't understand the mention of the Grinder in the context of the post I quoted.