Recent Events Discussion (RED) Thread

[Celestialphoenix]

Reika's rights, and any modder's rights, only exist as far as the boundaries of their own mods. No modder has the right to tell others how to run their own mod. If Reika must have his items blacklisted from Project: E then he should find a way to do so completely internal to his own mods ... and deal with the understandable backlash from players. It's not the responsibility of the devs of Project: E to cater to any whims but their own.

You're right, though. Partially. Reika has the right to decide the balance of his own mod. But that doesn't mean he gets to trample over others to do so. By that same logic, the devs of both Project: E and ModTweaker could demand that Reika allow full compatibility.

This is pretty much a stalemate; by those same rights P:E and ModTweaker could trample over Reika's right to demand autonomy and independence. Similarly P:E oversteps its boundaries when it includes another mod's unique items.

The question remains- what is the best way to handle this conceptual incompatibility? (For both devs)

Internal blacklisting is somewhat a last resort, and especially if the other devs are actively trying to subvert said blacklist- then thats a volatile road that nobody wants to go down.​

Why is kinda why Reika asks other devs [such as the Mod/MineTweaker teams] not to subvert his design; negotiation is a far less painful route then blunt force.

Though I think KL might be right in dropping the issue being easier for one's own peace of mind- given the overall relentlessness of the modding community; it will happen sooner or later, and the resultant game of whack-a-mole becoming a significant time sink and not an enjoyable one.

 

[King Lemming]

Reika.

Stop. You can't fix everything, and you certainly can't fix stupid. You also can't win this one. In fact, it's like thermodynamics - you can't possibly break even.

Walk away from the fight before you end up walking away from the community.

If somebody uses a combination of mods to break their server, well that's a shame. But it's on them, and you as a modder shouldn't care. You're going to have crossmod interaction. I've been there, it sucks, but you have to take it on the chin and move on, because ultimately it doesn't matter. Getting into a cold war over balance issues isn't worth it, because balance is subjective and the game is a sandbox. And if the owner of that sandbox wants to cover it in jet fuel and set it on fire, that's their decision to make.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Reika's rights, and any modder's rights, only exist as far as the boundaries of their own mods. No modder has the right to tell others how to run their own mod. If Reika must have his items blacklisted from Project: E then he should find a way to do so completely internal to his own mods ... and deal with the understandable backlash from players. It's not the responsibility of the devs of Project: E to cater to any whims but their own.

Which is what he TRIED to do, and Project E wouldn't let him.

You're right, though. Partially. Reika has the right to decide the balance of his own mod. But that doesn't mean he gets to trample over others to do so. By that same logic, the devs of both Project: E and ModTweaker could demand that Reika allow full compatibility.

That is the most flawed piece of logic I have ever seen.

Basically, Reika said "I don't like how this mod interacts with my mod, I don't want my items to have an EMC Value." This is a perfectly reasonable request. Then, when no answer was forthcoming, he deliberately prevented them from doing so, from within his mod. As is his right. And if he wants to deal with the backlash from that, this is entirely his decision. Now Project E is, effectively, trying to HACK HIS MOD to try and make it work anyway. But hey, I guess self-entitlement is more important than respecting the mod devs these days.

At the very least, Reika, this gives you the opportunity to say "If your pack has Project E in it, don't bother me with bug reports because it is explicitly unsupported". Sort of like TiCo and Optifine. Thank you for being more mature than Gregorious and not crashing people over the matter, though. That never ends well.

Yanno, it's kind of interesting. I've never been a big fan of Rotarycraft. I'm more of a casual style gamer, don't have the hours to put into it anymore, so it's not something that appeals to me. However, I will say that I will never install or use Project E, if this is their attitude. Does it matter in the long run? Probably not. But I'm also probably not the only one that feels that way. That whole 'deal with the fallout from the users' thing runs both ways.

 

[SynfulChaot]

Which is what he TRIED to do, and Project E wouldn't let him.

Project: E won't let him add code to his own mod? I didn't know they had that power. /sarcasm

On a less sarcastic note, there are always ways. I know of multiple mod authors that have coded in explicit workarounds for very specific mods. Reika's a good coder. I know it's within his ability. Yes, working with mod authors is preferable, but if those mod authors don't want to comply then they don't have to.

That is the most flawed piece of logic I have ever seen.

Basically, Reika said "I don't like how this mod interacts with my mod, I don't want my items to have an EMC Value." This is a perfectly reasonable request. Then, when no answer was forthcoming, he deliberately prevented them from doing so, from within his mod. As is his right. And if he wants to deal with the backlash from that, this is entirely his decision. Now Project E is, effectively, trying to HACK HIS MOD to try and make it work anyway. But hey, I guess self-entitlement is more important than respecting the mod devs these days.

At the very least, Reika, this gives you the opportunity to say "If your pack has Project E in it, don't bother me with bug reports because it is explicitly unsupported". Sort of like TiCo and Optifine. Thank you for being more mature than Gregorious and not crashing people over the matter, though. That never ends well.

Yanno, it's kind of interesting. I've never been a big fan of Rotarycraft. I'm more of a casual style gamer, don't have the hours to put into it anymore, so it's not something that appeals to me. However, I will say that I will never install or use Project E, if this is their attitude. Does it matter in the long run? Probably not. But I'm also probably not the only one that feels that way. That whole 'deal with the fallout from the users' thing runs both ways.

How is it illogical? Reika's request is reasonable to make, yes, but it's not reasonable to demand. If the creators of Project: E don't want to comply with that request then it's neither unreasonable nor wrong of them as their mod is their own as well. And I've seen nothing about them *hacking* RotaryCraft. I don't think they do that. All they were gonna do was add EMC values to items by default instead of leaving it up to player-set configs. I don't think that requires hacking. Immature threat? Maybe. Understandable they would make it? Definitely.

And Reika always has the opportunity to say that Project: E is unsupported and not to bother with bug reports. Just like he already does with MineTweaker. And that really is that best path to take, I think. Let the players do what they will. Mostly because they will whether you want them to or not. Players have this tendency to not listen to demands made on them.

On the contrary to you, I've always been quite intrigued by RotaryCraft. Even had it in previous versions of my personal modpack, along with GeoStrata. Getting those jet engines to work was fun. I'll admit I did abuse the magnetostatics, but I didn't decry him nerfing them. They kinda did need it. I even suggested some stone variants that did end up getting added to GeoStrata. I'm still happy about that. ^.^ Reika's policies since have ... disinclined me to his mods, though. Until those change back to something more friendly to players and modpack makers then I have no interest in putting it back in my pack as I refuse to have it be the be-all and end-all of balance in the tech side.

As for Project: E? I don't intend on using it either. But not for the same reasons as you. I can't decry their attitude towards Reika. Nor their actions. They aren't hacking RotaryCraft. They're not demanding things of Reika and making a public scene when he doesn't give them what they want. They're simply threatening to add default EMC values to items. That's no more of a hack then it is to add default Thaumcraft aspects to any item. It can be done entirely internal to P:E without touching any of RoC's code. And even that they're likely not going to do. My guess is it was an idle threat thrown out there in pure irritation to Reika's demands. I respect Reika's right to run his mod how he wishes, but I can't respect how he treats other mod authors.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Project: E won't let him add code to his own mod? I didn't know they had that power. /sarcasm

He added that code. They are working around it. A hack by anyone's definition.

How is it illogical? Reika's request is reasonable to make, yes, but it's not reasonable to demand. If the creators of Project: E don't want to comply with that request then it's neither unreasonable nor wrong of them as their mod is their own as well. And I've seen nothing about them *hacking* RotaryCraft. I don't think they do that. All they were gonna do was add EMC values to items by default instead of leaving it up to player-set configs. I don't think that requires hacking. Immature threat? Maybe. Understandable they would make it? Definitely.

You seem to misunderstand. Rekia has already put in code to make his items have no EMC value. What the Project E team is attempting to do is bypass this and do it anyway. I dunno about you, but that's hacking in my book.

And Reika always has the opportunity to say that Project: E is unsupported and not to bother with bug reports. Just like he already does with MineTweaker. And that really is that best path to take, I think. Let the players do what they will. Mostly because they will whether you want them to or not. Players have this tendency to not listen to demands made on them.

This isn't the players we are talking about, this is devs at Project E. Quite a different matter entirely. Players are... well, they're effectively Users (from a programming standpoint). With all the implications therein. There are always going to be some self-entitled individuals in that crowd. What Project E is doing is effectively catering to the self-entitled crowd and ignoring the wishes of the mod author.

On the contrary to you, I've always been quite intrigued by RotaryCraft. Even had it in previous versions of my personal modpack, along with GeoStrata. Getting those jet engines to work was fun. I'll admit I did abuse the magnetostatics, but I didn't decry him nerfing them. They kinda did need it. I even suggested some stone variants that did end up getting added to GeoStrata. I'm still happy about that. ^.^ Reika's policies since have ... disinclined me to his mods, though. Until those change back to something more friendly to players and modpack makers then I have no interest in putting it back in my pack as I refuse to have it be the be-all and end-all of balance in the tech side.

And I'm on the opposite side of that entirely. I'm a more casual player so I never got into RC's tech tree, however I certainly approve of Reika's policies.

As for Project: E? I don't intend on using it either. But not for the same reasons as you. I can't decry their attitude towards Reika. Nor their actions. They aren't hacking RotaryCraft. They're not demanding things of Reika and making a public scene when he doesn't give them what they want. They're simply threatening to add default EMC values to items. That's no more of a hack then it is to add default Thaumcraft aspects to any item. It can be done entirely internal to P:E without touching any of RoC's code. And even that they're likely not going to do. My guess is it was an idle threat thrown out there in pure irritation to Reika's demands. I respect Reika's right to run his mod how he wishes, but I can't respect how he treats other mod authors.

The difference being that giving Thaumcraft aspects to RoC's items doesn't destroy RoC's balance perspective. Adding EMC does. And if a mod author asks Azanor to not include aspects on items in their mod, he doesn't. This is called respect. Project E doesn't have any, it seems.

I don't get why this is a thing in the first place. If you want to have a challenge, play with RoC. If you want to play post-scarcity, play with Project E. Those tend to be mutually exclusive desires.

You have the right to use the mod/code as is. If you don't like it, don't install it in the first place. However, demanding Reika change his stance on EMC to cater to your own personal desires? That's about as self-entitled as it gets, outside of welfare.

 

[SynfulChaot]

He added that code. They are working around it. A hack by anyone's definition.

Ok. So Reika hardcoded in something specifically counter to Project: E and they're hardcoding in something to specifically counter that? Wow. Not only is it karma but a bit amuzing as well. And bit unprofessional on both sides, methinks. Also it's no more wrong for one to do it than the other.

You seem to misunderstand. Rekia has already put in code to make his items have no EMC value. What the Project E team is attempting to do is bypass this and do it anyway. I dunno about you, but that's hacking in my book.

As long as they're not hacking Reika's code itself they're doing no differently than Reika did with his code. It's a two-way street there. Neither are respecting the boundaries of the other. Neither is explicitly in the right.

The difference being that giving Thaumcraft aspects to RoC's items doesn't destroy RoC's balance perspective. Adding EMC does. And if a mod author asks Azanor to not include aspects on items in their mod, he doesn't. This is called respect. Project E doesn't have any, it seems.

Nor does Reika. He explicitly doesn't respect other mods that in any way could ever effect the balance of his, even if they don't affect it by default.

I don't get why this is a thing in the first place. If you want to have a challenge, play with RoC. If you want to play post-scarcity, play with Project E. Those tend to be mutually exclusive desires.

You have the right to use the mod/code as is. If you don't like it, don't install it in the first place. However, demanding Reika change his stance on EMC to cater to your own personal desires? That's about as self-entitled as it gets, outside of welfare.

Some actually like a little of both. Sometimes at the same time.

I, personally, don't demand that Reika change his stance on EMC. S'not my place. But it's also not Reika's place to demand that the devs of Project E cater to him. They have their stance on what EMC is and how it should work. Just as Reika has his on the balance of his mods. Neither is entirely in the right as both of them are treading on each other's toes and telling the other how their mod should be.

I, personally, don't run either. I like Reika's tech mods (sorry, not a fan of ChromatiCraft), but not his policies. I like Project E's policies, but not the mod itself.

 

[jordsta95]

Ok. So Reika hardcoded in something specifically counter to Project: E and they're hardcoding in something to specifically counter that? Wow. Not only is it karma but a bit amuzing as well. And bit unprofessional on both sides, methinks. Also it's no more wrong for one to do it than the other.

What does this sound a lot like?
GregTech and TiCon anyone?

This can only end well >_>

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ok. So Reika hardcoded in something specifically counter to Project: E and they're hardcoding in something to specifically counter that? Wow. Not only is it karma but a bit amuzing as well. And bit unprofessional on both sides, methinks. Also it's no more wrong for one to do it than the other.

Reika hardcoded in something to prevent Project E from altering his code. Project E is hacking, and I do use the term advisedly, to try and bypass that protection.

As long as they're not hacking Reika's code itself they're doing no differently than Reika did with his code. It's a two-way street there. Neither are respecting the boundaries of the other. Neither is explicitly in the right.

You don't do much in the way of programming, do you? And actually, there is a very unsubtle difference here. One is protecting his code from foreign injection. The other is attempting to bypass security protocol. Try this again?

I, personally, don't demand that Reika change his stance on EMC. S'not my place. But it's also not Reika's place to demand that the devs of Project E cater to him. They have their stance on what EMC is and how it should work. Just as Reika has his on the balance of his mods. Neither is entirely in the right as both of them are treading on each other's toes and telling the other how their mod should be.

I, personally, don't run either. I like Reika's tech mods (sorry, not a fan of ChromatiCraft), but not his policies. I like Project E's policies, but not the mod itself.

Are you even reading what you are writing? No, I am being serious here. Stop a moment and look at what you are writing. People are subverting the code by applying third party code to its functionality to dramatically change and alter the functionality of that code. And you are supporting this?

Just to clarify, Project E is attempting to replicate EE2. It can do that without RoC's items having EMC. It doesn't need RoC's items to have any EMC value. It can run along just fine without any RoC items having EMC value. Attempting to do so after being explicitly told 'no' is not just hacking, it is just plain rude.

 

[L0NExW0LF]

What does this sound a lot like?
GregTech and TiCon anyone?

This can only end well >_>

Exactly the reason why I think we should take Flipz's advice and move this conversation to it's own thread.

 

[ljfa]

Reika is using the ProjectE API to set the EMC for his items to zero, effectively blacklisting them. He is not hacking anything.
But this is what SinkillerJ wants to do:

Mods that attempt to modify EMC values in any way, adding, removing, etc, are automatically added to a config file where the user can deny that mods permission to do so. Ideally two config options per mod, allow modify self, and allow modify other mod id's.

because

At the end of the day the user/pack author has the final say, I understand that some mod authors may not like how ProjectE interacts with their mods but using the mod is a choice. I'm simply attempting to protect the user from Gregtech situations, forced changes to other mods that the user may not want.

No hacking involved there either. Just that the user is able to intervene if some mod changes (its own or other mods') EMC values.

 

[SynfulChaot]

What does this sound a lot like?
GregTech and TiCon anyone?

This can only end well >_>

My thoughts exactly. Only this time instead of Greg vs mDiyo it seems to be Reika vs ... lots.

Reika hardcoded in something to prevent Project E from altering his code. Project E is hacking, and I do use the term advisedly, to try and bypass that protection.

As long as they don't touch Reika's code it's no more hacking than Reika's explicit hardcoding against them. If they do touch Reika's code then yes, they're definitely in the wrong.

You don't do much in the way of programming, do you? And actually, there is a very unsubtle difference here. One is protecting his code from foreign injection. The other is attempting to bypass security protocol. Try this again?

Actually I do, thankyouverymuch. Less programming than scripting, though I'm highly familiar with both. And yes, that does include Java. Please don't go for an ad hominem attack. It doesn't help your argument. Again, as long as each doesn't explicitly alter the other then there's no issue. It could be done as simply as detecting RoC items in the machines themselves and having a 'dictionary' of values there. No code touched, just block IDs detected.

Are you even reading what you are writing? No, I am being serious here. Stop a moment and look at what you are writing. People are subverting the code by applying third party code to its functionality to dramatically change and alter the functionality of that code. And you are supporting this?

I know exactly what I'm saying. Reika is applying third party code to alter the functionality (blocking it) of Project E. The Project E folks are no more in the wrong for doing it in the inverse provided that both aren't touching the code of the other. Like I keep saying, it's a two-way street. If it's fine for Reika to do it against Project E, then it should be fine for them to do right back to Reika's mods. Nothing more or less.

Honestly I think they should both just drop it and let things be. Neither of them is coming out of this any rosier than the other.

Just to clarify, Project E is attempting to replicate EE2. It can do that without RoC's items having EMC. It doesn't need RoC's items to have any EMC value. It can run along just fine without any RoC items having EMC value. Attempting to do so after being explicitly told 'no' is not just hacking, it is just plain rude.

Last I heard, before Reika tried to make a debacle out of this there were no default assigned values to anything RotaryCraft. All Project E wants to do is make sure users of the mod aren't blocked from using it with others just because another modmaker doesn't like it.

 

[trajing]

While I'm not a mod, why don't we move this to this thread so that it's easier for the mods to clean up if the discussion gets out of hand?

 

[Flipz]

While I'm not a mod, why don't we move this to this thread so that it's easier for the mods to clean up if the discussion gets out of hand?

I am a mod, and that suggestion is now official. ​

 

[NJM1564]

While I'm not a mod, why don't we move this to this thread so that it's easier for the mods to clean up if the discussion gets out of hand?

This discussion has bin going of for a few days already. I don't see anything escalating or any personal attacks getting thrown.
Everybody has hoped on given there two cents then largely dropping it.

With the general consensuses being something like Reika needing to get over it. And to stop complaining about things he can not control. I do not see this thread getting so out of control that it would ever need cleaning up. And if it does it will only be the last few posts.

 

[Reika]

It has already moved, including my latest reply.

 

[TomeWyrm]

*shrug* the mods have spoken and it's evolved to the point that it is truly off-topic for this thread. We've monopolized the last 5 pages at least.

 

[VapourDrive]

So, the weather huh. Here in Canada it's still hovering around 0 degrees Celsius and its actually April.

 

[TomeWyrm]

It snowed in a 4 square mile area of Seattle like a week ago.

 

[Eruantien]

I have something important to say to you all.

Spoiler

 

[ljfa]

The weather is nice here atm. I think I'm gonna ride the bike for a bit.