Your thoughts on the Technic Platform?

[Dafuq?]

You know, I'm starting to grow fond of this community.

You guys are smart, usually polite, check your facts before posting, even some flame-bait topics end up with some pretty tame and decent conversation.

You don't see that often.

This is so true. When I first saw this thread pop up, I thought: Oh great, it will take five minutes, and then this will erupt into a major flame war and the moderators will have to close it down.

I went to check out platform to get an opinion, and as I came back a few hours later, I was honestly surprised to find the thread still open. As I read through the first few pages I was even more surprised by the intelligent conversation and arguments, while the occasional flaimbait post either got completely ignored or quickly and eloquently rebuked, by a large majority who didn't want to see their discussion destroyed again.

And then, some of the people who stormed in, all whiteknighting and backseat-moderating, actually calmed down and made some decent points and took different opinions into consideration.

That altogether is very rare, and beautiful. Poppycocks got it right, you guys are awesome.

Now let's join forces, FTB, Technic, Plus+, whoever, and build the greatest fucking game humanity has ever seen! (Yeah, I know, I might be asking for a little bit to much, but as I already stated earlier, I'm a dreamer...)

 

[Guswut]

Now let's join forces, FTB, Technic, Plus+, whoever, and build the greatest fucking game humanity has ever seen! (Yeah, I know, I might be asking for a little bit to much, but as I already stated earlier, I'm a dreamer...)

So long as you add links to puppies and kittens, you've got my support (and my {code}axe)!

 

[Milaha]

So, I was a couple pages behind, I admit to skipping the posts that seemed too hostile/flamey. But I would like to weigh in with my opinion about how respect works (or at least how it works for me). Since it does not exactly fall into either of the categories Velo listed.

I respect people departmentally, especially in regards to people I do not know. What this means is that if I am familiar with someone through their work, they get instant respect for that work. That means I treat both the work itself, and their efforts into its creation with respect. I do not however respect that person in general. How does this end up working out for how I treat their work and them? Well, let me illustrate with a movie series I quite enjoy before talking about it directly and in regards to mods.

I really like the Star Wars movie series, have since I was a kid and got the original series on VHS (I am a bit too young to have experienced it in the theaters). I respect George Lucas and the other people involved for making it. I do not however watch episode 1. If I wish to watch a marathon of Star Wars, I pretend episode 1 does not exist. Were I to introduce a friend to Star Wars (has happened before). I would have them watch the series out of order. (4,5,2,3,6 if you care) Lucas would likely object to this, instead wishing for it to be consumed in order. I disagree, and will consume (and redistribute) the product in the order I feel creates the best experience. I will also intentionally use my old versions of the films that do not contain many of the revisions added later (wtf, Greedo shoots first?!?!?), as i do not feel they add anything significant to the story, and in some cases even detract from it.

So, now with that example out of the way, lets talk directly.

First, as demonstrated I have zero regard for consuming and sharing the product in the way that the creator wishes. Respect for the product does not cause me to consume it in a way that I find less enjoyable, or to share it in a way that would be less enjoyable. It actually does the exact opposite, it causes me to carefully consider how I can obtain and spread the maximum level of enjoyment for the product, even if that method differs from the opinion of the creator.

Second, I have no problem simply removing portions of the content that I feel detract from the whole. Be that entire movies or simply small parts. This one is a bit harder to directly relate, but again it all has to do with obtaining the maximum enjoyment from the product. If part of the product does not work, it is my obligation to remove it.

Third, (and this part was not necessarily clear by the example). I am very careful to properly give credit for the product. This is where that respect for the effort comes in. They put their time and thought into making something which I enjoy. When I discuss it with others I refer to it by the proper name, and where appropriate credit the appropriate people. It is not "that movie with lightsabres" it is "Star Wars". It is not "The one with the snow" it is "The Empire Strikes Back". It is not "My flying mining ship in FTB" It is "My IC2 miner mounted on RP frames, fully automated with a combination of: ender chests, RP tubes and devices, and a few TE machines, controlled by CC". This is not the responsibility of mod pack creators though (with the exception of simply having a list of included mods, which everyone does already), this is the responsibility of the end user.

This is honestly something I think we have a problem with in our society, in more ways than one. Take the way we worship actors or sports stars for instance. We respect them for their talents, but then we go beyond that, and care about what they have to say about things entirely outside that. Simply because someone creates or possess a talent you respect, does not mean that they are worthy of your respect in general. Some of the greatest achievers in history were giant douchebags as people. Respect the accomplishment and the work, not the person in general.

EDIT to be clear: When I talk about spreading it in different ways, this does not extend to ways that actually deprive creators of profits. This is not an issue in MC modding, and in regards to the movie I thought it was pretty clear we were not talking about me actually burning dvds or anything.

 

[KirinDave]

First, as demonstrated I have zero regard for consuming and sharing the product in the way that the creator wishes. Respect for the product does not cause me to consume it in a way that I find less enjoyable, or to share it in a way that would be less enjoyable. It actually does the exact opposite, it causes me to carefully consider how I can obtain and spread the maximum level of enjoyment for the product, even if that method differs from the opinion of the creator.

Let's talk about this for a second. In many cases you're "right" that you can find ways to use the author's work as a social tool, and in the process you and the author can both gain repute. However, it still makes you a leech. Ultimately, we have to respect the authors wishes as best we can. If you do not like this, go find a product that does do things the way you prefer.

You leaving that content behind is a favor for a disillusioned author in the context of minecraft mods: the only real value of MC mods can be derived from open source and open processes. All these fears about, "The kiddees stealing my mods" are baseless, meaningless, unimportant preening. But we cannot force the authors to think any which way, and we should not rob them if they don't agree.

Several of us on these forums just made an epic big modpack and as far as I know, it is legal for private uses. It wasn't even hard to verify this; it took me less than 2 hours of research and asking and our modcount is >135 right now. It has everything you could want and more, so you probably don't have an excuse for behaving badly.

Because you know how I feel about people who have stolen my name or my work? I think I should be allowed to slowly run over their arms with a tank.. And unlike many people here, I have had my name and work stolen by competitors, on four separate occasions.

So on the one hand: I agree mod pack inclusion should be automatic. On the other hand: your message is one that sounds self-entitled, self-absorbed, and like you are a talentless leech. Consider carefully what your words mean and what the actual outcome of your actions is. Because the message you're sending is that these people should work at your leisure and that you're entitled to that output.

The truth is that by open sourcing and integrating with the rest of the mod world, almost every modmaker ends up with a better outcome and more tangible value. And because they're hardworking and talented people, we want the best for them.

 

[Dafuq?]

wall of text

I totally agree with you in regards to separating respect for someones work and respect for someone as a person.

But even if I wouldn't, I would have liked your post for hating and not watching Episode 1.

 

[Milaha]

Ultimately, we have to respect the authors wishes as best we can.

I justified why my respect for the product mandates that I do not, you have provided me no justification for this statement. Please provide some.

Because you know how I feel about people who have stolen my name or my work?

Did you even read my whole post? Please go back, I made it abundantly clear that it is our responsibility to be very very careful about giving credit. It is the largest paragraph in my entire post. The fact that you have called me a leech, and gone on a rant about how I am stealing their work in spite of this fact just goes to show how out of touch you are.

EDIT: to be clear (and I am editing the prior post too). When I talk about spreading it in different ways, this does not extend to ways that actually deprive creators of profits, this is not an issue in MC modding, and in regards to the movie I thought it was pretty clear we were not talking about me actually burning dvds or anything.

 

[Dafuq?]

Several of us on these forums just made an epic big modpack and as far as I know, it is legal for private uses. It wasn't even hard to verify this; it took me less than 2 hours of research and asking and our modcount is >135 right now. It has everything you could want and more, so you probably don't have an excuse for behaving badly.

The sad thing is, that only "several people on these forums" who have the password can use it.

But hey, I could do all that work of putting the mods together again, and then submit the exact same pack, so me and my friends can also play it.

But I better do it quickly, there's only 4 slots left.

 

[Guswut]

The sad thing is, that only "several people on these forums" who have the password can use it.

But hey, I could do all that work of putting the mods together again, and then submit the exact same pack, so me and my friends can also play it.

But I better do it quickly, there's only 4 slots left.

No, no, KirinDave and I aren't going through the FTB launcher for reasons that have already been discussed. We're using MultiMC right now, and in the process of migrating to the Technic launcher for, again, reasons that have been discussed.

And if you decide to add Harvest Craft, I can give you some config tips such as don't add cotton, hahahah... Crazy Pam and her hatred for BuildCraft.

 

[Dafuq?]

No, no, KirinDave and I aren't going through the FTB launcher for reasons that have already been discussed. We're using MultiMC right now, and in the process of migrating to the Technic launcher for, again, reasons that have been discussed.

And if you decide to add Harvest Craft, I can give you some config tips such as don't add cotton, hahahah... Crazy Pam and her hatred for BuildCraft.

Yeah because you are a tech-savvy bunch and you are able to put together packs with >135 mods. People who can't will "behave badly" and play Plus+ instead.

 

[RetroGamer1224]

Wait Pam doesn't like BC? What madness is this?

EDIT: Hold on. Just because they put together a mod pack doesn't mean you can't. It is your choice if you want to learn how to.

 

[Guswut]

Yeah because you are a tech-savvy bunch and you are able to put together packs with >135 mods. People who can't will "behave badly" and play Plus+ instead.

Honestly, it isn't all that hard to do. The hardest issue we've faced thus far is "OH GODS, THE SERVER CRASHED!", and then looking at the error logs, seeing ExtraBees mentioned, and then updating ExtraBees to the latest version (problem: sorted).

But yes, the Technic launcher is the in-between step which makes it easier for people to compile their own modpack whilst still also keeping the power of the system within your grasp in regards to legalities.

Wait Pam doesn't like BC? What madness is this?

EDIT: Hold on. Just because they put together a mod pack doesn't mean you can't. It is your choice if you want to learn how to.

It's just like programming turtles, though: Most people think it'll be too hard to do, so they don't do it.

 

[jumpfight5]

They're copyrighting laws now? This can't end well...

...My feelings *pain*

Lets add another topic. What other mods you like to use with FTB?

Hmm, always played Vanilla Mindcrack, because I'm on a server. If I end up upgrading, I'll probably add mods like Xeno's Reliquary, Better Dungeons, Modular Powersuits, and a couple of the mods that have popped up on these forums.

 

[Dafuq?]

Wait Pam doesn't like BC? What madness is this?

EDIT: Hold on. Just because they put together a mod pack doesn't mean you can't. It is your choice if you want to learn how to.

I personally can, I haven't tried 135 yet, but I'm at 82 or so currently. But it took me some time and nerves to get there. And most MC players can't or don't want to or don't have the time. That's the whole point of modpacks.

 

[zarendahl]

I justified why my respect for the product mandates that I do not, you have provided me no justification for this statement. Please provide some.




Did you even read my whole post? Please go back, I made it abundantly clear that it is our responsibility to be very very careful about giving credit. It is the largest paragraph in my entire post. The fact that you have called me a leech, and gone on a rant about how I am stealing their work in spite of this fact just goes to show how out of touch you are.

You might want to re-read what he said. The way you phrased what you said comes across as self-entitled among other things.

As long as proper attribution, and any potential donations are properly routed, is given I see no problem with modpacks at all. The whole permissions brouhaha is getting out of hand. Let's face facts; when someone gets their knickers in a knot over 'Copyright' we start to see the worst in everyone. I'm not a mod dev, never will be either. But I'm one of the very few who has, and still do, maintain multiple custom modpacks for servers I've run or designed for others. It's a royal pain in the tail to have to maintain them all, and to not get any credit or a donation or two for the work involved does get tiresome.

People need to remember, there's more then just two sides to this particular conundrum. Someone else mentioned them all, Mod Devs, Modpackers, and Users. Because some devs have their knickers tied up in a Gordian Monkey Knot over copyright and are willing to introduce anti-modpack code the user's experience suffers. In at least one case people have had installs get corrupted and the world they'd been working on destroyed by this particularly toxic attitude. Enough of this already.

Why is it that a mod dev can demand that someone with the skills needed to build, and maintain, a modpack not get paid (donations or ad-based revenues) for the work they do put into building and maintaining it?

 

[RetroGamer1224]

I understand De but your post sounded like you were or are angry at some that did made a mod pack and are sharing it amongst friends. Just my observation that is all.

 

[Milaha]

You might want to re-read what he said. The way you phrased what you said comes across as self-entitled among other things.

Please explain how. I never once claimed entitlement to anything other than choosing to consume already produced content in the way that I wish. And to spread that content to others in the form I wish while properly providing credit to the creators. I in no way claimed that the things I wish to be produced in the first place should be made, or that I should claim any kind of credit for my minor packaging changes upon spreading it.

 

[Dafuq?]

I understand De but your post sounded like you were or are angry at some that did made a mod pack and are sharing it amongst friends. Just my observation that is all.

No not at all, if I sound angry, it's just desparation over the permissions issue standing in the way of people playing awesome modpacks. I think it's kind of elitist to say: Well if you're too stupid to put together 100+ mods, go play vanilla, or spend days learning to make something that is already out there and could be shared so easily.

I didn't want to offend anyone, and from the posts that I have read from KirinDave, he's a CoolDude(TM) and probably much smarter than I am. I just can't understand that he calls it "behaving badly" when people have enough of this nonsense.

EDIT: Oh, and I'm tired as hell, I only slept 2 hours tonight, and I tend to get grumpy without noticing it, when I don't sleep enough.

 

[zarendahl]

Please explain how. I never once claimed entitlement to anything other than choosing to consume already produced content in the way that I wish. And to spread that content to others in the form I wish while properly providing credit to the creators. I in no way claimed that the things I wish to be produced in the first place should be made, or that I should claim any kind of credit for my minor packaging changes upon spreading it.

It's all in how you phrased it. I never once said that you were self-entitled. The way you had stated it did though.

 

[RetroGamer1224]

I can be called an elitist because I do believe that if you want something you have to work for it yourself. Maybe because I am old and was raised differently but if you want to eat you have to work for it. No one else can do it for you. Yes there are ways to have it easier but it is more empowering to do it for yourself. To learn and have a skill that can help you later on in life.

Like the old addage of "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach him to fish and he feeds for his life." That is something I have believed in. I need to get better at not hanging on people and do it for myself. Self. That is all that matters when it comes about. Humans die alone all the time. it is not ment to be all spring flowers or easy. Earn it or stop evolving.

 

[Milaha]

I can be called an elitist because I do believe that if you want something you have to work for it yourself. Maybe because I am old and was raised differently but if you want to eat you have to work for it. No one else can do it for you. Yes there are ways to have it easier but it is more empowering to do it for yourself. To learn and have a skill that can help you later on in life.

Like the old addage of "Give a man a fish and he eats for a day. Teach him to fish and he feeds for his life." That is something I have believed in. I need to get better at not hanging on people and do it for myself. Self. That is all that matters when it comes about. Humans die alone all the time. it is not ment to be all spring flowers or easy. Earn it or stop evolving.

EDIT: I seriously misunderstood RetroGamer1224's position through no fault of his. Please ignore this post.

So what you are saying is that you do not use mods, MC, windows, computers, cars, or any other product that was produced by someone else? I am confused. Where do you draw the line regarding what someone else can produce for you, and what you need to make yourself? If that is your reason for oposing unauthorized mod packs, what makes authorized ones ok? If authorized ones are not ok either, then what is the difference between the mod and the mod pack, if there is no difference what is the difference between MC and a mod, etc etc.