[WIP?] Redstone Fluctuation

[Zandorum]

I've been thinking about how to rebalance RF (I would like to say right now I do think RF is overpowered compared to how MJ used to function as well as how EU functions; However you can argue that RF on it's own is balanced) so it's not as set and forget as it is now, A good example of a working version of this was Old School Buildcraft and Industrialcraft. I'd like to discuss our options on what we can do to change this other than making a direct copy of IC for RF. My current Idea(s) are as follows:

Previous notes, If something has (Core) in its name this will be in the main addon but if it has (Additions) it will be in the addon that requires the Base mod.

Configuration (Core & Additions):
Type: Function
Function: I will be making it so you can turn on and off each and every feature of the mod through the configs.

Cables (Core):
Type: Tweak
Function: Loses power over distance, making Tesseracts more useful.
Note: Cables refering to all Mod's cables that are support TE, EIO, etc.

Tesseracts (Core):
Type: Tweak
Function: Tesseracts would have Two Modes in the Config:
1. Tesseracts consume 1/50th the amount of power over distance than Cables (This accounts for Interdimensional power consumption so if you were to put 1 Tesseract at X and in the Twilight Forest you put it at the same Spot it wouldn't have any power loss over distance but if you did the same in the nether because of how distance works in the nether that might not be true).
2. Tesseracts would require power but only if it's going between Dimensions, If power is being sent through it if you wanted it would take from the power being sent (If it required Hypothetically 100 rf/t and your sending 500 rf/t through it it would only send 400 rf/t but if for example you were sending 90 rf/t and it needed 100 the tesseract would just consume the power and not function). Dependant on the dimension it would require more or less power. Supported would be: The Deep Dark, Nether, Mystcraft Dimensions (Based off of Instability the more unstable it is the more it would cost starting at an already high cost) and the Twilight Forest.

Tesseract Sapping (Core):
Type: Tweak
Function: Tesseracts moving Energy Cells would sap the amount of power of it equal to the distance it is moved like in Mode 1. If an Energy Cell is being Moved and is Empty sapping will not happen. If your making a self-assembling structure that will require power and will be moving very far away, it might be a good idea to have a form of power generation being moved over as well. Another option would be to have all of the parts dis-assemble and re-assemble on spot and use a Slip-Gate so you can move the Powered Cell over then try to keep it maintained with something. If an Energy Cell is being moved and is Empty through a Tesseract it will not cost anything to transport it as long as its empty.
Note: This is a toggleable feature but it is recommended if you don't want people abusing Tesseracts and going around the whole limitations set by this mod. Note that the Slip-Gate would not have this feature.

Power Storage (Core):
Type: Tweak
Function: All power storage will now based on how much it can hold slowly lose power making you require to keep up power generation to keep storage full, this includes being in an inventory. Batteries will not be affected by this due to their lower storage sizes as well as keeping their use (to not remove their use all together). The loss on a Storage Unit will not make it's previous tier more useful as the power loss isn't enough to make that an issue.

Overloading (Core):
Type: Tweak
Function: Overloading would be a new feature to Cables, if you were to try and push over 4x the maximum amount of power a cable can handle through the cable it will explode. This makes using Energy Cells a way to make a Buffer for this.

No Cross Dimensional Travel (Core):
Type: Tweak
Function: This would be disabled by default but this would make it so you can turn off Tesseracts being able to go cross dimension, Ender Tanks going Cross Dimension and Ender Chests going Cross Dimension. This is mostly for something I'd like to add to make it something more desirable and harder to do.

Power Transition Conduit (Additions):
Type: Block
Function: Power Transition Conduits are a stronger version of conduits that could only connect to conduits, these would lose Massive amounts of power over distance however they do not have a Maximum on how much power they can transport. This allows you to move the power to other Energy Cells over short distances (As I said you cannot connect them to anything but Conduit making them unable to connect to Tesseracts or anything around it) (Obviously if your using these the amount of power your moving wouldn't be dented because of how gross the amount of power being generated is, examples: Big Reactors and Reactorcraft (No I am not bashing them I am saying they produce a mass of power)).
Note: This is to work around for the Overloading feature where some power production will produce so much power that no one energy cell could handle being a buffer for the amount of power output let alone pulling the power out quick enough to not let it fill first, allowing you to connect multiple power storage's.

Slip-Gate (Additions):
Type: Block
Function: This would function like a Tesseract however this would require a massive amount of power per tick to function. This would also have the additional function of being able to teleport players (This is to make it not only have a positive towards the Tesseract but also make it something players would like). If you put a Magic Mirror from Thaumcraft onto a Slip-Gate it will make it beable to transport essentia using power instead of Iter. If you have Iter and Potentia Jar's nearby (Also Infernus if your have Forbidden Magic) you can hook up essentia conduits to the Slip-Gate to make it require less power. Slip-Gates all though Two-Way have an important feature, Only the Entrance needs to be powered so if your sending something to somewhere if you have no intention of sending it back through the other side of the Slip-Gate only the Entrance will need power.
Note: Teleportation, Magic Mirror and Essentia Power Lowering features will be toggleable in the config. This would beable to go Cross Dimension even if the Tesseract is not being allowed to. Something I want to mention, the whole Thaumcraft thing is just sorta a fun side thing It will be off by default its more because I stole the Slip-Gate name from Quake and Slip-gates are part Magic part Machine in Quake so I said why not.

Explosive/Malfunction (Core):
Type: Function
Function: The Explosion/Malfunction functionality from Buildcraft will be adopted to mods touched by this mod. Based on your options in Buildcraft it will set this. Note that this will be disableable just like everything else.
Note: This will be disabled if Buildcraft isn't installed.

Dependent on community response to this this will either be made or not. I have not worked on this at all as I want this to be a community venture where we all come up with Ideas on how to rebalance this. Please not that I do not want this to be a topic about "Why is it overpowered" or "Why does it need to change". This would be a unoffical patch not a CHENGE IT NAOW topic. This topic is more for people who Think like me, If you do not like the idea you do not have to be apart of this as it's purely optional whether or not you have this installed at all.

 

[Chaka]

I've been thinking about how to rebalance RF (I would like to say right now I do think RF is overpowered compared to how MJ used to function as well as how EU functions; However you can argue that RF on it's own is balanced) so it's not as set and forget as it is now, A good example of a working version of this was Old School Buildcraft and Industrialcraft. I'd like to discuss our options on what we can do to change this other than making a direct copy of IC for RF. My current Idea(s) are as follows:
-RF Conduit (Both Ender IO and Thermal Expansion) Loses power over distance, making Tesseracts more useful.

-Tesseract's consume 1/50th the amount of power over distance than RF Conduit (This accounts for Interdimensional power consumption so if you were to put 1 Tesseract at X and in the Twilight Forest you put it at the same Spot it wouldn't have any power loss over distance but if you did the same in the nether because of how distance works in the nether that might not be true).

-Power Storage (Both Ender IO and Thermal Expansion) will now based on how much it can hold slowly lose power making you require to keep up power generation to keep storage full, this includes being in an inventory. Batteries will not be affected by this due to their lower storage sizes as well as keeping their use (to not remove their use all together). The loss on a Storage Unit will not make it's previous tier more useful as the power loss isn't enough to make that an issue.

-Overloading would be a new feature to Conduits (Both Ender IO and Thermal Expansion), if you were to try and push over 4x the maximum amount of power a Conduit can handle through the Conduit it will explode. This makes using Energy Cells a way to make a Buffer for this.

-Power Transition Conduits would be a stronger version of conduits that could only connect to conduits, these would lose Massive amounts of power over distance however they do not have a Maximum on how much power they can transport. This allows you to move the power to other Energy Cells over short distances (As I said you cannot connect them to anything but Conduit making them unable to connect to Tesseracts or anything around it).
Note: This is to work around for the Overloading feature where some power production will produce so much power that no one energy cell could handle being a buffer for the amount of power output let alone pulling the power out quick enough allowing you to connect multiple power storage's.

Dependent on community response to this this will either be made or not. I have not worked on this at all as I want this to be a community venture where we all come up with Ideas on how to rebalance this. Please not that I do not want this to be a topic about "Why is it overpowered" or "Why does it need to change". This would be a unoffical patch not a CHENGE IT NAOW topic. This topic is more for people who Think like me, If you do not like the idea you do not have to be apart of this as it's purely optional whether or not you have this installed at all.

I think it is cool!

 

[Padfoote]

Adds a bit more depth to the current RF system, allowing for those who are interested in it to have a bit of challenge in their game. I definitely like it.

 

[darkeshrine]

-Tesseract's consume 1/50th the amount of power over distance than RF Conduit (This accounts for Interdimensional power consumption so if you were to put 1 Tesseract at X and in the Twilight Forest you put it at the same Spot it wouldn't have any power loss over distance but if you did the same in the nether because of how distance works in the nether that might not be true).

Tesseract's did something similar to this back in 1.5, when there were 3 different kinds of Tesseract(Items, Fluids, and power). I don't think it does that anymore, but if I remember correctly it was a flat percentage. The distance system seems a tad pointless and more difficult to code.

Also, there are Extra Utilities and MineFactory Reloaded cables that transfer RF. Are you planning on altering their behavior as well? Other than that, it sounds like a great mod.

It's not something that I would ever use as the only medium to long distance power transfer I ever use is for Pumps or Quarries. I rather enjoy sending fuel around rather than power.

 

[Zandorum]

Also, there are Extra Utilities and MineFactory Reloaded cables that transfer RF. Are you planning on altering their behavior as well?

As long as it's asked for I will, I use those mods as well so I would add support for them as well.

It's not something that I would ever use as the only medium to long distance power transfer I ever use is for Pumps or Quarries. I rather enjoy sending fuel around rather than power.

I do see your point with tesseracts... I use them for that purpose too and hadn't thought about that. Maybe it could instead be free over distance but cross dimension requires X amount of power per Tick based on the Dimension your crossing?

 

[Skyqula]

I would not alter existing mods functionality. Instead, I suggest adding your own versions of them and suggest a config options to make piping/tesseract functionally optional for TE/EnderIO/BC/AE/MFR/etc. Its why TE has moved there pipes to a seperate mod so that you can use the lossy BC pipes instead (wich will also become optional trough configs).

Another problem with taxing tesseract like functionality is that you basicly need to put a flat value so that you can tax everything, not just power. Otherwise you just charge energy cells, wrench them and send those over instead. Or send over fluid fuels free of charge. Or *insert item/fluid that prevents taxing*. The problem here is that tesseracts have no limit. So a flat value of of 50RF/t over 100RF/t would be alot. But 50RF/t over 50.000 RF/t wouldnt be anny concern. Likewise, how would you know the value of an item being moved? Whats the right amount of RF to charge? A single piece of cobble is 1 item, just like a single full resonant energy cell worth 50M RF. Or even better, a single resonant strongbox with storage IV full with resonant energy cells/resonant fluid tanks. And then there is AE with p2p tunnels and its quantum entanglement. Move annything and everything without limits for a "small" energy upkeep cost.

Therefor making your own versions would be alot better. As you could enforce limits and have proper taxing values. You would likely have to add filters to tax certain amounts/fluids more then others or to outright prevent certain items/fluids from being moved (read: all tanks/energy cells).

 

[ScottulusMaximus]

For item and fluid: Within say 100 blocks make tesseracts free, bit harsh punishing someone for cleaning up their builds instead of pipes everywhere. After 100 blocks one standard power draw at BOTH ends(80-100rf/t, low enough so u can put a couple of engines down). Across any dimension ramp up power to maybe 500/t.

Power tesseracts should take a big chunk of the power(10-20%) to run and not be allowed to carry items and fluid at the same time.

 

[midi_sec]

a lot of this may be possible using the rf api. I know perdition is for sure.

 

[jordsta95]

It sounds cool... but why do you mention Ender IO and Thermal Expansion?

First off, Ender IO is but one mod that uses the RF system, which is a part of Thermal Expansion.
Secondly, I REALLY like that you aren't adding another generator... there are too many mods that add RF generators.
Thirdly, unless you mean you are editing tesseracts from Thermal Expansion, why add them? TE Tesseracts do cause a loss of power when using it to send power.
Forthly, overloading. I love it. As long as there is a vast array of energy conduits, e.g. leadstone, hardened, redstone, resonant (double redstone), and infinite (uber expensive) that allows any amount of RF transfer.
And finally, power storage. If you are going to add energy storage. More is MORE! With mods like Big Reactors producing more than 1kRF/t there needs to be energy cells that can store something massive like 100,000,000,000,000 (or just something big)

As a tack on note, if you are trying to balance TE more, maybe you could make an add-on that adds "breakdowns" to the TE machines, that can be fixed with augments (giving people like me, who don't bother going above basic, a reason to do so).
E.g.
Machine with no augments will work for 15 cycles and then break down
1 augment = 32 cycles
2 augments = 1.5 stacks
3 augments = no breakdowns
Or something.

 

[epidemia78]

I dont think RF needs such an overhaul. If people want machines that explode in your face if you look at them wrong, theres Gregtech. I think all TE needs is rebalancing of its recipes so that you need machine A to craft machine B unlike now where you can pretty much craft them all after mining for a few minutes. And the other RF mods in the scene should also require materials that can only be processed in those machines. Its like everyone wants to be the star of the show and cant just humble themselves enough to admit their mod is best considered a TE addon.

 

[Padfoote]

I dont think RF needs such an overhaul. If people want machines that explode in your face if you look at them wrong, theres Gregtech.

There are people that want the exploding machines but don't like GT, or want the exploding machines to be included in more than GT. I fall into the latter category.

I think all TE needs is rebalancing of its recipes so that you need machine A to craft machine B unlike now where you can pretty much craft them all after mining for a few minutes.

Definitely agree here. I wouldn't mind seeing a general jump in how expensive each part is either.

And the other RF mods in the scene should also require materials that can only be processed in those machines. Its like everyone wants to be the star of the show and cant just humble themselves enough to admit their mod is best considered a TE addon.

This is the part I disagree with the most. I personally hate TE and will remove it from any pack I play. Mods like Mekanism and EnderIO I quite enjoy, and they have their own unique form of progression that is separate from TE for a reason. Trying to balance a mod's progression and overall balance around another mod whose changes are outside of your control is very taxing and is a waste of time for the mod dev.

 

[epidemia78]

There are people that want the exploding machines but don't like GT, or want the exploding machines to be included in more than GT. I fall into the latter category.


Definitely agree here. I wouldn't mind seeing a general jump in how expensive each part is either.


This is the part I disagree with the most. I personally hate TE and will remove it from any pack I play. Mods like Mekanism and EnderIO I quite enjoy, and they have their own unique form of progression that is separate from TE for a reason. Trying to balance a mod's progression and overall balance around another mod whose changes are outside of your control is very taxing and is a waste of time for the mod dev.

I dont see what there is to hate about TE. EnderIO doesnt have enough processing machines to base any sort of industry around. Its boring to have to use the same two over and over again. I like the new powered spawners but this whole slice n splice business doesnt make any sense to me. When I fluid transpose something, I have a pretty good notion of what is supposed to be happening, it seems logical.

Mekanism is a good mod but on the other hand its kind of not. All of its ideas are recycled from other mods, its default textures do not fit in with vanilla, its power gen and automining is ridiculously overpowered and it seems to cause a lot of lag. Oh and 5x ore processing is way beyond overkill. Overall it just light speeds you to the point of not needing anything and makes the game boring.

 

[jordsta95]

I dont see what there is to hate about TE. EnderIO doesnt have enough processing machines to base any sort of industry around. Its boring to have to use the same two over and over again. I like the new powered spawners but this whole slice n splice business doesnt make any sense to me. When I fluid transpose something, I have a pretty good notion of what is supposed to be happening, it seems logical.

Mekanism is a good mod but on the other hand its kind of not. All of its ideas are recycled from other mods, its default textures do not fit in with vanilla, its power gen and automining is ridiculously overpowered and it seems to cause a lot of lag. Oh and 5x ore processing is way beyond overkill. Overall it just light speeds you to the point of not needing anything and makes the game boring.

By default, mekanism is actually really balanced if you use RF as it's power system (and change no values) as it uses something like 100RF/t to process stuff. I know if you add Mekanism generators you start to counter-balance it, but they actually struggle to keep up. If you use a few wind turbines (less than 3) you tend to lose power faster than you make it.
I will agree, the textures aren't great. And the auto-mining system is OP.

But Mekanism isn't the easiest to automate. At least not to a newbie. Someone who has just started playing modded minecraft, or just come from TE, will not know how to automate Mekanism machines. Heck, sometimes I get confused.

As for EnderIO, I just think it is a terrible mod, that is now getting too much hype because DW20 uses it... as soon as DW20 uses a mod MASSIVE POPULARITY!
It has terrible textures, is insanely over powered...(at least in terms of mod interaction) Seriously, being able to charge your RF tools while using them, as long as you are withing 30 blocks, that is OP as hell. My tools will be charging as I enter my house, dump crap in a chest, and will be charged by the time I leave. NO THANK YOU! Then the spawners.... I will shut up ranting now.
But you can't say one RF mod is OP and another isn't. All of them are OP. That is why I like the idea of breakdowns. Not exploding and losing all your materials like GT, that is just mean. But maybe having to tend to the machines so you can't chunk load your base, and have enderpouch -> ender chest -> pulverizer (or equivalent) -> furnace of choice -> storage. At least not until you have spent a fair amount of time upgrading the machines.

A lot of RF mods are really cheap with their ore doublers. A great ore-doubling mod for balance, if you ask me, is Hydraulicraft. It doesn't use power. But it requires water, and fuel. And we are talking a LOT of water. So it's not something you can do within 15-20 minutes (assuming you are lucky with resources).
I would say stuff like the original GT nerfs (requiring a diamond for a macerator, etc.) is something MOST RF mods need. Yes, there should be something that is "noob friendly" but give it a downside, e.g. Instead of ore doubling it will give 1 ingot and 1 nugget per ore. So for every 9 ore you put in, you get 10 ingots.

 

[Strikingwolf]

/me waits in the shadows

 

[buggirlexpres]

Guys, remember the last time we had a debate about RF? That didn't really end up too well. I think all opinions that any of us are going to have were already covered by those threads, and I'm sure we don't need that shitstorm again.

 

[Strikingwolf]

Guys, remember the last time we had a debate about RF? That didn't really end up too well. I think all opinions that any of us are going to have were already covered by those threads, and I'm sure we don't need that shitstorm again.

Gideon. Always so wise and reasonable...

 

[PhoenixSmith]

snip

Personally I like RF how it is, and dislike the older EU, and MJ systems. I think because RF and TE werent so complicated in there energy system it made YouTubers and players want to use them more so. If you want more of a challenge just use IC2 with GT. All the things you talked about are just nerfs to the way RF works and make it more similar to other tech mods.

 

[Strikingwolf]

Personally I like RF how it is, and dislike the older EU, and MJ systems. I think because RF and TE werent so complicated in there energy system it made YouTubers and players want to use them more so. If you want more of a challenge just use IC2 with GT.

A lot of people are afraid of the direction RF and TE are going because they fear that it could be the end of hard mods. And another step into the unified power system

 

[ScottulusMaximus]

I dont think RF needs such an overhaul.

Then don't download the mod.

Guys, remember the last time we had a debate about RF? That didn't really end up too well. I think all opinions that any of us are going to have were already covered by those threads, and I'm sure we don't need that shitstorm again.

To be fair he's not asking opinions on RF he's asking for advice on what to do with his mod, certain members are just stirring the pot as usual... Hey at least we got 8 posts of constructive advice

Personally I think it's a great idea and would use it in a heartbeat, go OP go!!!

And I quote, "This topic is more for people who Think like me, If you do not like the idea you do not have to be apart of this as it's purely optional whether or not you have this installed at all."

 

[epidemia78]

By default, mekanism is actually really balanced if you use RF as it's power system (and change no values) as it uses something like 100RF/t to process stuff. I know if you add Mekanism generators you start to counter-balance it, but they actually struggle to keep up. If you use a few wind turbines (less than 3) you tend to lose power faster than you make it.
I will agree, the textures aren't great. And the auto-mining system is OP.

But Mekanism isn't the easiest to automate. At least not to a newbie. Someone who has just started playing modded minecraft, or just come from TE, will not know how to automate Mekanism machines. Heck, sometimes I get confused.

As for EnderIO, I just think it is a terrible mod, that is now getting too much hype because DW20 uses it... as soon as DW20 uses a mod MASSIVE POPULARITY!
It has terrible textures, is insanely over powered...(at least in terms of mod interaction) Seriously, being able to charge your RF tools while using them, as long as you are withing 30 blocks, that is OP as hell. My tools will be charging as I enter my house, dump crap in a chest, and will be charged by the time I leave. NO THANK YOU! Then the spawners.... I will shut up ranting now.
But you can't say one RF mod is OP and another isn't. All of them are OP. That is why I like the idea of breakdowns. Not exploding and losing all your materials like GT, that is just mean. But maybe having to tend to the machines so you can't chunk load your base, and have enderpouch -> ender chest -> pulverizer (or equivalent) -> furnace of choice -> storage. At least not until you have spent a fair amount of time upgrading the machines.

A lot of RF mods are really cheap with their ore doublers. A great ore-doubling mod for balance, if you ask me, is Hydraulicraft. It doesn't use power. But it requires water, and fuel. And we are talking a LOT of water. So it's not something you can do within 15-20 minutes (assuming you are lucky with resources).
I would say stuff like the original GT nerfs (requiring a diamond for a macerator, etc.) is something MOST RF mods need. Yes, there should be something that is "noob friendly" but give it a downside, e.g. Instead of ore doubling it will give 1 ingot and 1 nugget per ore. So for every 9 ore you put in, you get 10 ingots.

I agree with everything you said, pretty much. Especially about the wireless charger. It takes all the fun out of having rechargeable tools. Still not sure about how balanced Mek is. Last I tried it in 1.7, I set up a bunch of windmills on a nearby floating slime island, they are so cheap to craft I could have added hundreds if I wanted to. And boy is 5x ore processing hard to automate, especially when you try to make it visually appealing and not just a massive complex of tubes and boxes.

And yes, a pulverizer type machine should be expensive. Never tried Hydraulicraft but then again I have never bothered using Tinkers construct for ore doubling either because the other option seems so much easier.