What exactly is offensive about being told to play in creative mode?

[casilleroatr]

<snip>

What about women who play minecraft? In mega ultra hardcore mode? Or the men who just enjoy a playful apple flirtini because it makes them feel special and be damned with societal expectations? This post is a great example of a decent point made a bit weird by a clunky analogy. And besides Jack on the rocks? Puh-leez. Maybe a nice Islay single malt, no ice. Then we can talk

 

[jokermatt999]

Thing is, there's as much variety in play styles as in beer. I love a nice dark Imperial Stout of Rotary Craft. While it's got that bitter taste of crafting components and machines to make other machines, that coffee flavor pairs really well with the rest of the beer. In contrast, I can see the appeal of the Gregtech IPA, but the over aggressive hoppy bitterness of the nerfed beginning game puts me off from the fragrant tasty endgame. At the same time, 1.5 DartCraft was just too light for me.

 

[Hyperme]

Because it's terrible arguementing. Also I made a post about this before so here's the main content part of it about 'oh man why not play creative' posts.

Firstly, is that it creates a false dichotomy. The argument set forth suggests exactly two options are present; the current level of difficulty in Survival mode, or Creative mode. It's suggests that preferring less difficulty in requiring resources is equivalent to wanting no difficultly in that area. However, difficulty is not a binary setting. It's an analogue scale, and a fuzzy one at that.

Which I think brings us nicely to our second point. The that post argument generally does not consider the quality of the difficulty or design in general, and instead focuses on the fact that difficulty exists, and that people don't like it because difficult. However, difficultly should be judge on how it is created. While TV Tropes is fairly hit and miss, the pages on Fake Difficulty and Fake Balance list many example of difficultly that is just bad, including things that appear in Minecraft mods. An example of this is the 1.6 Forestry bee nerf. 80% of bees are now 'ignoble' and have a random chance to 'die off'. So now you have to sent roughly 5 times longer finding princesses that don't have this problem. Of course, such luck-based systems are everywhere in bees. Mutation chances start at 15% percent and go down. And vanilla forestry contains no way of affecting this chance in either direction in and upward direction. No player input, just RNG. 'Difficult' maybe. Well designed? In Minecraft mods? It's less likely than you think!

Finally, the that post argument is one directional. The inverse is never present. No one says 'Oh, if it's so easy, why not get out of creative mode' when an excess of power is present. (Except for EE2, which while very fun, was also very Creative Squared). It's a subtle, perhaps not intentional suggestion that difficult will always increase enjoyment. Buffs of underpowered mechanics are rare. Instead, everything is brought down. Don't bring me down, Bruce! But seriously, when was the last time something was described as UP in Minecraft modding. It's as easy to create something something that's underpowered as it is to make something overpowered. Seriously, Push was a waste of energy better spend explode stuff. And Explode was cheaper than Teleport, but dug up treasure, killed stuff and gave a way back. Game design isn't just nerfing. It's providing interesting things, and something bring something up to the level of everything, instead of being Bruce and bringing everything else down.

 

[zorn]

What about women who play minecraft? In mega ultra hardcore mode? Or the men who just enjoy a playful apple flirtini because it makes them feel special and be damned with societal expectations? This post is a great example of a decent point made a bit weird by a clunky analogy. And besides Jack on the rocks? Puh-leez. Maybe a nice Islay single malt, no ice. Then we can talk

You are doing exactly what this thread is talking about. Is it a subtle joke, or are you really saying your drink is superior? (in a thread about how people get upset when others imply their ideas are superior to others?)

 

[SonOfABirch]

The thing is, I may like Miller, and you may like Karhu (strong Finnish beer) but because you feel your beer is stronger and more manly than my prefered beer, you act like a stereotypical alpha bully and tell me that if I'm drinking something so mild as Miller then I may as well drink wine. Like, I don't like wine, I like miller. I may like some beer that has a strong hint of fruit, you know what? Thats absolutely fine too, it's still beer, and it's still not wine, and it's still just as okay for me to drink and enjoy my fruity beer as it is for you to enjoy your almost stout like bitterbeer.

analogies over, saying "go play creative" or "why don't you just play creative" is the most infuriating thing any GT Fanboi can ever say and I despise anyone who would tell me that.

On another slightly related angle... I am known for hating GT, it's no secret, I can't stand it. I am also quite active in another popular modpacks community, and was making suggestions that the oregen in said pack was too abundant, and that for balance sake, it should really be toned down... being told "you care so much about balance go play Gregtech" is equally infuriating. One can want balance without resorting to Gregtech (which is a hamfisted and terrible attempt at it that lacks any semblance of intelligent design) and one can have fun without resorting to super abundance. There is a middle ground and it is awesome.

 

[Hoff]

You are doing exactly what this thread is talking about. Is it a subtle joke, or are you really saying your drink is superior? (in a thread about how people get upset when others imply their ideas are superior to others?)

The context of him saying the latter part of his post made it far from subtle. It's a fairly obvious joke.

 

[zorn]

The context of him saying the latter part of his post made it far from subtle. It's a fairly obvious joke.

You've never met someone who was passive aggressive? I'd never make a joke that could be interpreted either way and then tell someone their analogy was weird and clunky.

I guess it's just me, I'd be more careful about how I wrote things down to ensure people would not misinterpret them. I must be the only person who has met people before who insult you with a smile so if you get mad you look like the bad guy. Must be just me though, surely having the minority opinion in here proves that I am just mistaken.

The whole thread here is about hoe people misinterpret people, right?

 

[Hoff]

You've never met someone who was passive aggressive? I'd never make a joke that could be interpreted either way and then tell someone their analogy was weird and clunky.

I guess it's just me, I'd be more careful about how I wrote things down to ensure people would not misinterpret them. I must be the only person who has met people before who insult you with a smile so if you get mad you look like the bad guy. Must be just me though, surely having the minority opinion in here proves that I am just mistaken.

The whole thread here is about hoe people misinterpret people, right?

I am such a passive aggressive person. The joke had only one way to be interpreted in context, the joke highlighted that.

If you give proper context to something that gives little room for misinterpretation then there's no reason not to do it. Those people can be dealt with just not in the same way you would others. He smiles at you while insulting you? Laugh and call his bluff. The one who folds to anger is the one who lost. Everyone in this forum is a minority. There is no real majority within the modded MC community in terms of opinions. Not until you group people together anyway. We're not groups; we're individuals.

 

[Vauthil]

If I see the word "fanboy" (however creatively spelled) one more time, I'm slapping somebody with a large moderation trout. Cut that crap out.

 

[Norfgarb]

What about women who play minecraft? In mega ultra hardcore mode? Or the men who just enjoy a playful apple flirtini because it makes them feel special and be damned with societal expectations? This post is a great example of a decent point made a bit weird by a clunky analogy. And besides Jack on the rocks? Puh-leez. Maybe a nice Islay single malt, no ice. Then we can talk

I'm not exactly sure what an apple flirtini is but i think i want one.

 

[Norfgarb]

On topic, I find personally that my enjoyment from playing comes from "the journey and not the destination" that is i get the most enjoyment out of building cool builds when i'm overcoming something such as the lack of resources or a complete lack of motivation or whatever it is that is stopping me.

As far as GT goes being as its in the discussion, (although i don't play it anymore) back in 1.4.7 i used to get enjoyment out of the tedium in that I'd run around for an hour or more trying to build one specific machine i needed and it would make me furious, but by the end the satisfaction was I would say worth it. Though usually after that my brain would be so fried from rage that i would place it down without checking what type of voltage it was connected to, it would exploded and I would cheat in a replacement.

EDIT: I guess what i mean by that is that my motivation for playing survival and by extension choosing not to use certain mods is to give myself that little bit of a challenge. To add some other examples I have friends who mostly prefer building stuff, and like doing it in survival mode. They don't, however, enjoy having to go and get all the resources they want to do so. (Which make for a good team, because I'm the madman who goes mining for hours and never gets lost)

 

[RedBoss]

When I really ponder this question, I realize that I'm always playing in "creative mode." I'm always trying to build unique and visually appealing structures. I'm always looking for my personal best way to use machines and make them look nice. I'm always trying to make a world in Minecraft that I want to walk around in. Design is a creative process so from the point where I start placing blocks, I'm in a mode of being creative.

And I find it better to have plenty of blocks and use them for something creative than to scrounge for resources indefinitely in a linear quest of tech tree climbing. I left vanilla because of the grind time in resource gathering. I felt my play time was wasted gathering resources instead of being creative and building. I'll pay a price for automation, but I play mods so that I have less grind and more building.

The fun for me is building. I like being on top of a dirt pillar trying to make Grey blocks look cool. That's me being creative. I don't like being judged for that. I never get judged for my play style in game on servers. I've been honored by some really great machine & aesthetic builders. They actually came to my base just to see it. People who have conquered gregtech, folks who have defeated the technical challenges, players who literally change the game with their play styles have made me feel welcome on the same server with them. That's fun to me. It's fun when someone who's built something that is nerfed due to their efforts, says, "hey guy, I like your base." I don't build complex tech builds but I still use the heck out of the mods in my own way.

We're all creative in some degree. We don't need to down each other. In vanilla, there's not a huge division between redstone builders and castle builders. There should be LESS division here. Your desire for a grind doesn't make you superior to someone who doesn't want that. Your casual play style doesn't make you better than the person who wants pure linear progression. Once we let go of the vitriol from the GT wars we can move along. We'll probably always be a splintered community when it comes to play styles. But we are a mod community and we should start mending those old wounds and forget the old arguments.

And it helps if we don't feed the trolls, no matter what side of the bridge they lurk.

 

[Esheon]

Well said, RedBoss.

I used to be the guy who looked down on creative mode. To me, you weren't playing until you scrounged for every resource and risked death just from falling off the tower you were building... Then I tried a few different playstyles. I joined a Mindcrack FTB server and learned just how easy plain old survival could be without GT. I toured a few graylist creative servers and was absolutely astounded by the builds people could pull off.

I still prefer survival for myself, but I understand why some folks like the creative side of things. I do use creative myself occasionally... I have a creative 1.7 world where I've been building a port city (sails are a royal pain to get just right), and I usually fly around a bit on a new world just to find the right location for my starting base before I drop into survival mode.

Everyone has their own playstyle, and I'm cool with that.

 

[Petrus]

The Creative Mode insult, on the surface, is about as bad as the "Go play GregTech" one. The difference? The Creative Mode insult is, 95% of the time, used by IC2 or GregTech players insulting a style of play by saying that you may as well just spawn things in. This by itself is idiotic as IC2 adds FREAKING INVINCIBILITY ARMOR and INFINITE NON-RENEWABLE RESOURCES, as well as GregTech being the highest-power mod in 1.6 that isn't named ExtraCells. It's almost always used by hypocrites and thus is associated with idiot trolls, as well as being drastically more common than being told to play with GT (insult version, because that can be a legitimate suggestion too).

I've said it before, and I will say it again. People who care about "balance," in this game, and/or try to insult others with, "go and play in Creative, because you're obviously such a newb that just spawning things in is perfect for you," are terminally insecure, and are playing this game as a vicarious means of generating self-worth.

If you are someone who needs to feel superior to others, because you play this game at a higher level of difficulty than said other people, then you are a pathetic, utterly contemptible, broken shell of a human being, who fairly obviously has absolutely no life outside the game whatsoever.

The above goes double for mod authors who are balance obsessed, as well. If it wasn't for the above attitude among SMP players, "balance" would not be an issue at all; just as it wasn't when Minecraft was still primarily a single player game. I have gradually come to consider multiplayer gaming in general to be a virulent sociological disease, in all honesty; and the dynamics that I am describing in this post, are the reasons why.

There is another, related point here that needs to be brought up as well. I've seen the statistics on the number of people who play Minecraft SMP, versus the number of people who say that they prefer single player. This was similar to the number of people I saw, who were willing to put up with ignorant/tyrannical guild leaders within World of Warcraft. I understand why this is, as well. Most of you work for sociopathic employers within your day jobs, so when you get home and get online after work, submitting your own will to that of bottom feeding, autocratic sociopaths within online games, to the same degree that you do at your place of offline employment, just seems completely natural to you.

Try developing some basic appreciation for your own autonomy, and capacity for self-determination; as in, the ability to decide what you want to do, rather than always needing to be managed by someone else, who generally isn't remotely interested in your wellbeing.

I am aware of the fact that this post, and others that I've made on this forum, cause me to appear to be a vicious misanthrope. I am trying not to be misanthropic, but I would seriously appreciate it if the Minecraft community would stop providing so much justification for a misanthropic attitude.

 

[SonOfABirch]

I've said it before, and I will say it again. People who care about "balance," in this game, and/or try to insult others with, "go and play in Creative, because you're obviously such a newb that just spawning things in is perfect for you," are terminally insecure, and are playing this game as a vicarious means of generating self-worth.

It's not so black and white. You can care about the balance in your game without having an obsession for Gregtech, or telling others that their style of play is worth less than your own. I care about balance in my game and I'm certainly not terminally insecure, I play for fun, not so that I can feel superior to others, and I never play with GT

 

[mrbaggins]

I've said it before, and I will say it again. People who care about "balance," in this game, and/or try to insult others with, "go and play in Creative, because you're obviously such a newb that just spawning things in is perfect for you," are terminally insecure, and are playing this game as a vicarious means of generating self-worth.

If you are someone who needs to feel superior to others, because you play this game at a higher level of difficulty than said other people, then you are a pathetic, utterly contemptible, broken shell of a human being, who fairly obviously has absolutely no life outside the game whatsoever.

I agree with the sentiment that people who tell others to go play creative are complete wankers.

I completely, utterly, totally DISAGREE with the way you seem to think discussing mod balance is a stupid thing to do. There needs to be balance and it needs to be considered, addressed and applied effectively at all stages of both game and mod development. To do otherwise is ridiculous. And the balance in vanilla Minecraft itself is already somewhat broken. To quote the Escapist: "This is a game where having the resources to bake a cake is a mark of considerable status"

It is something that easily gets out of hand though. I don't like EnderStorage. I believe it is a vastly overpowered mod that makes large sections of both the vanilla game and many mods completely invalid, for what is effectively free. I am allowed to have this opinion. I am allowed to say this, online, but for some reason, anyone who loves the mod feels the need to rant about my tedium-based hardon and clear affectations for GregoriousT.

I think EnderStorage needs a drastic balancing factor brought in. It needs something to make it not completely invalidate Railcraft, the QuantumBridge in AE, Tesseracts from TE, or any other method of transporting items more than a couple chunks. It needs to cost energy, or randomly lose items to the ether, or something. It is an inherently unbalanced addition to the game.

I DON'T run around telling people that "They should play creative" if they play with EnderStorage. It just makes me think they've cheaped out and taken the easy option, when there are infinitely cooler, more interesting and ultimately "fairer" ways of playing.

If the response to the above two paragraphs is to tell me "I'm playing wrong" or that "I should let people do what they want" then all it does is tell me the person isn't interested in gameplay, so much as they want the way they know is easy to remain functional.

It's funny, as a high school IT teacher, I see kids playing a fair amount of games. The one that gets me is the "godmode" style cheats / hacks. There's a game out there, called "The worlds hardest game". It's 30 levels of "You're a red box. Get through this obstacle course without touching a blue circle. Collect the yellow circles as you go". And if you touch a blue circle, you restart the level.

Nice and tricky, right? Some might say it needs balancing. It gets damned difficult. It is called "The worlds hardest game" though, right?. You know what >50% of kids do after playing it for 10 minutes? They find "The worlds hardest game - hacked" which makes it so touching a blue circle doesn't kill you. It doesn't even act as a wall. You can just travel straight through. There's even an "ultra hack" version where the level walls don't stop you. Here's what that game looks like:

Somehow, this is fun. Kids will load this up, and play it through to completion 2-3 times in a row, and then again the next day. When the page they load it from has thousands of other games as well.

And personally, this is how things like EnderStorage, MPPS, Early Dartcraft and Mystcraft feel like to me. It's the easy solution. It detracts from finesse, skills and the inherent puzzle that playing this game is supposed to be.

 

[zorn]

I agree with the sentiment that people who tell others to go play creative are complete wankers.

I completely, utterly, totally DISAGREE with the way you seem to think discussing mod balance is a stupid thing to do. There needs to be balance and it needs to be considered, addressed and applied effectively at all stages of both game and mod development. To do otherwise is ridiculous. And the balance in vanilla Minecraft itself is already somewhat broken. To quote the Escapist: "This is a game where having the resources to bake a cake is a mark of considerable status"

It is something that easily gets out of hand though. I don't like EnderStorage. I believe it is a vastly overpowered mod that makes large sections of both the vanilla game and many mods completely invalid, for what is effectively free. I am allowed to have this opinion. I am allowed to say this, online, but for some reason, anyone who loves the mod feels the need to rant about my tedium-based hardon and clear affectations for GregoriousT.

I think EnderStorage needs a drastic balancing factor brought in. It needs something to make it not completely invalidate Railcraft, the QuantumBridge in AE, Tesseracts from TE, or any other method of transporting items more than a couple chunks. It needs to cost energy, or randomly lose items to the ether, or something. It is an inherently unbalanced addition to the game.

I DON'T run around telling people that "They should play creative" if they play with EnderStorage. It just makes me think they've cheaped out and taken the easy option, when there are infinitely cooler, more interesting and ultimately "fairer" ways of playing.

If the response to the above two paragraphs is to tell me "I'm playing wrong" or that "I should let people do what they want" then all it does is tell me the person isn't interested in gameplay, so much as they want the way they know is easy to remain functional.

It's funny, as a high school IT teacher, I see kids playing a fair amount of games. The one that gets me is the "godmode" style cheats / hacks. There's a game out there, called "The worlds hardest game". It's 30 levels of "You're a red box. Get through this obstacle course without touching a blue circle. Collect the yellow circles as you go". And if you touch a blue circle, you restart the level.

Nice and tricky, right? Some might say it needs balancing. It gets damned difficult. It is called "The worlds hardest game" though, right?. You know what >50% of kids do after playing it for 10 minutes? They find "The worlds hardest game - hacked" which makes it so touching a blue circle doesn't kill you. It doesn't even act as a wall. You can just travel straight through. There's even an "ultra hack" version where the level walls don't stop you. Here's what that game looks like:

Somehow, this is fun. Kids will load this up, and play it through to completion 2-3 times in a row, and then again the next day. When the page they load it from has thousands of other games as well.

And personally, this is how things like EnderStorage, MPPS, Early Dartcraft and Mystcraft feel like to me. It's the easy solution. It detracts from finesse, skills and the inherent puzzle that playing this game is supposed to be.

This is my issue. I wont tell people they are inferior for playing creative mode or whatever but if you come to this forum and try to talk about balance, you are lumped in with people who say things like that. And told that I am only enjoying tedium and tedium is not difficulty.

So basically what I enjoy is not difficult, which implies that what I enjoy does not deserve any praise or respect. This is exactly what the 'go play creative mode people' are saying, and its hwy its so offensive. And then people wonder why those who feel this way either get defensive or just dont post here.

 

[Hoff]

This is my issue. I wont tell people they are inferior for playing creative mode or whatever but if you come to this forum and try to talk about balance, you are lumped in with people who say things like that. And told that I am only enjoying tedium and tedium is not difficulty.

So basically what I enjoy is not difficult, which implies that what I enjoy does not deserve any praise or respect. This is exactly what the 'go play creative mode people' are saying, and its hwy its so offensive. And then people wonder why those who feel this way either get defensive or just dont post here.

Accomplishing something difficult doesn't necessarily deserve praise. Building isn't necessarily difficult but people are offend praised for it. Often time the things people are praised for the most are simple things or lots of simple things put together. Besides if you came on and posted images of a workshop you've made people will praise it the same as a castle that's posted.


I hate smart phones.

 

[zorn]

Accomplishing something difficult doesn't necessarily deserve praise. Building isn't necessarily difficult but people are offend praised for it. Often time the things people are praised for the most are simple things or lots of simple things put together. Besides if you came on and posted images of a workshop you've made people will praise it the same as a castle that's posted.


I hate smart phones.

Everyone likes to hear that something they spent time on and enjoyed is enjoyed by others. The definition of what difficult is doesn't matter and it really depends on the person on how difficult something is. To direwolf20 a fancy castle is really difficult to build, for others his tech stuff is hard to build. My point is that if anyone enjoys gregtech they get yelled at and told 'tedium is not difficult!' Ok thats fine... but If i point out that its not difficult to build 100 boilers because you use turtles and quarry plus in your pack... im the Devil.

Even the people who say 'minecraft isnt hard!' in any mode are really defending their own playstyle and imagining that their ideea on how to play the game is superior. They make 'complex systems' and are super duper creative. Isn't this just another type of one-upping someone? To me its no different than saying 'go play creative then!' "Minecraft isnt hard, its about building... and of course that is what i do and I think I do it well." This is really what those people are saying. Everyone wants to know that what they enjoy is worthy and admirable of attention.

This is why if TE3 is said to be 'easy' people get upset. And yet everyone admits that setting up iC2 is 'harder' because... people have shit blow up in their faces. But no one wants to admit they want something simple and easy because that doesn't get admiration and respect. So the words are changed to 'intuitive'. This is why people say gregtech is tedious, not hard. Tedious just implies that it takes time, but is not osmething people should admire or respect.

Is it no wonder people get defensive when people say 'gregtech is just tedious and tedium is not hard!' Its THE SAME THING as saying 'why don't you play creative!' both statements are downplaying the praise someone shoudl get for doing well in that style of game.

 

[zorn]

I've said it before, and I will say it again. People who care about "balance," in this game, and/or try to insult others with, "go and play in Creative, because you're obviously such a newb that just spawning things in is perfect for you," are terminally insecure, and are playing this game as a vicarious means of generating self-worth.

If you are someone who needs to feel superior to others, because you play this game at a higher level of difficulty than said other people, then you are a pathetic, utterly contemptible, broken shell of a human being, who fairly obviously has absolutely no life outside the game whatsoever.

The above goes double for mod authors who are balance obsessed, as well. If it wasn't for the above attitude among SMP players, "balance" would not be an issue at all; just as it wasn't when Minecraft was still primarily a single player game. I have gradually come to consider multiplayer gaming in general to be a virulent sociological disease, in all honesty; and the dynamics that I am describing in this post, are the reasons why.

There is another, related point here that needs to be brought up as well. I've seen the statistics on the number of people who play Minecraft SMP, versus the number of people who say that they prefer single player. This was similar to the number of people I saw, who were willing to put up with ignorant/tyrannical guild leaders within World of Warcraft. I understand why this is, as well. Most of you work for sociopathic employers within your day jobs, so when you get home and get online after work, submitting your own will to that of bottom feeding, autocratic sociopaths within online games, to the same degree that you do at your place of offline employment, just seems completely natural to you.

Try developing some basic appreciation for your own autonomy, and capacity for self-determination; as in, the ability to decide what you want to do, rather than always needing to be managed by someone else, who generally isn't remotely interested in your wellbeing.

I am aware of the fact that this post, and others that I've made on this forum, cause me to appear to be a vicious misanthrope. I am trying not to be misanthropic, but I would seriously appreciate it if the Minecraft community would stop providing so much justification for a misanthropic attitude.

So... sheesh where to start here. So you just said anyone who enjoys balance, or even plays SMP are all wrong? You see two statistics that are similar and assume they are related? Correlation does not prove causation? You ahve to show that the data is actually related to each other, two similar graphs doesn't prove anything. Piracy declined hundreds of years ago as lemon sales went up... obviously people eating more lemons stopped piracy!

And people who play multiplayer just have horrible bosses and enjoy being talked down to, and so they want to go online and ahve others tell them what to do. Or mods that offer objectives, they are just telling you what to do and these people are horrible.

Dan200, the guy from computer craft said recently that maybe the game needs more objective based mods. (might have been another dev) This is where the mod itself gives you an objective. But to you, this guy and any mod who tries to balance his mod, are just contemptible pieces of shit.

And MY Posts are antagonistic? WOW!