Tinkerer's construct balance ideas

[keybounce]

So after playing around with Tinkerer's Construct a little, I'm a bit thrown by balance.

TC tools can be made from better materials, giving built-in efficiency.
Many have built-in unbreaking as well.

While you cannot toss them at enchanting tables, you can craft (guaranteed) things like silk touch, or improved efficiency; you can add fortune, etc.

And things you can't get in vanilla: Auto smelt.

And then there's self repair (moss), or work-station repair (more materials); no XP cost to make, upgrade, or maintain. The tool never goes poof.

With no downside.

For balance reasons, can the default number of "extra slots" on tools be dropped to either 1 (normal play), or zero (ultra hard mode play); extra slots would come from paper, thaumium, or adding mineral blocks to buy slots.

Simply put: There is no reason to make a vanilla tool at all with this mod installed.
That alone tells me that there is a serious balance problem.

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Equally, the 2 to 1 bonus of using the smeltery results in no real reason to ever use a vanilla furnace, except to make one. Simply put, that bonus is too high. No, I don't know what to do for balancing that.

===

By page 6, I now understand the point that people are misunderstanding about this. So let me try to be clear here:

1. Vanilla ores are in common supply. TiC adds even more ores. You are horribly over supplied with stuff.

Yet on top of that over supply, TiC adds ore doubling, and reduces the amount of materials needed for the equivalent item. A vanilla pick is 2 sticks and 3 ores; the equivalent TiC item is 2 sticks and 1 ore.

TiC does not need ore doubling.

2. The smeltery is a mechanic that adds tedium more than anything else. It basically acts as a giant "crafting table" made from a material that is a little harder than normal to find.

3. A TiC tool, defaults to 3 "add-on" slots, and can usually have two more; potentially three more. That is too many.

4. A high-end TiC tool is significantly better than anything you can get from vanilla tools except if you have the best possible vanilla enchantment books to use. The TiC tool repairs easier than the vanilla enchanted tool unless you use a questionable mechanic of the anvil that doesn't keep increasing the costs if it is renamed. (I don't know the exact method of replicating this, but apparently others do).

5. My point of this was to try to improve the balance of TiC as compared to vanilla, or in FTB packs like UHS. Not FTB packs like DireWolf.

 

[Loufmier]

congratulations on trying to balance yet another mod that adds stuff better than vanilla.

 

[PeggleFrank]

So every mod that adds something better than a wooden pickaxe should be removed from the FTB mod packs?

 

[Drijen]

Just uhhh, only use one modification slot and tell yourself you can only do that if you use thaumium or paper? It sounds like you want to play a different game than what comes in the box. Rather than call the box's contents broken or wrong just throw out the pieces you don't want and be happy.

Only use ore doubling mechanisms if you throw diamonds at a cactus first or whatever else you think would make it more balanced for yourself.

You can call it the 'keybounce challenge' and set yourself up as the grandmaster of keybounce style.

 

[keybounce]

So every mod that adds something better than a wooden pickaxe should be removed from the FTB mod packs?

No. But something that adds an entire class of stuff that completely outpaces all vanilla items with no downside?

Given that a TC tool is superior in every way to the corresponding vanilla tool, why ever make a vanilla tool?

And if it completely obsoletes a vanilla section of the game, can it be considered balanced?

Reducing it to one extra slot normally means that while a vanilla tool can get 4 enchantment slots on it, you have to spend a little more to get that 4th slot on these tools. (Remember, most will start with efficiency and unbreaking). Given the infinite life / no XP to maintain, it's still stronger than vanilla, just no longer obscenely stronger.
And dropping to no extra slots for "hard challenge" packs, such as UHS, makes the vanilla tools serious contenders again.

It sounds like you want to play a different game than what comes in the box. Rather than call the box's contents broken or wrong just throw out the pieces you don't want and be happy.

This isn't the first time this response has come up when I've commented on abusable systems. What would you say, for example, to a villager trade mod that allowed you to trade a stick for an emerald, or two emeralds for diamond gear? Or both at the same time in a default config?

At some point, "what's in the box" is unbalanced and unfair. Villager trading is probably the classic example in vanilla -- unless you want emeralds for decorations, there's no point to trade with them. So something that makes trading better is worth adding, even if it replaces all existing villager trading.

But where's the end? Do you make diamonds trivial? At what point do you make the balance for villager trading?

Answer: Cheap enough that it is worth using, but not so cheap that you don't bother ever mining. Find some sort of balance with the other means of getting stuff. If you never mine, trading is too powerful; if you never trade, it's too weak. Where's the "both are worth using" point?

This -- TC -- is a way to make tools with built-in enchantments. And, you can make them last longer, even forever, at no XP cost or RNG chance taking. So how powerful should they be?

Do you think that the vanilla enchanting mechanism is so broken as to be useless? Prior to the anvil and the enchanted book, I would have agreed. Now, I disagree. Is the balance in vanilla perfect? Probably not, but it's reasonably close. (*) Does this mod even come close to being in balance with vanilla? No.

Dropping down to one base slot makes it only slightly better than vanilla.
Dropping it down to zero base slots make it on par with vanilla -- there's now reasons to use both systems.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

TiC tools are no more unbalanced than IC2 tools which never break and run on energy. And worlds less powerful than MPS tools.

This is a Modded Minecraft environment. Vanilla tools aren't really anything that most of us use anymore.

 

[Drijen]

I just don't understand why you are drawing a line in the sand and comparing different things to that line. This isn't a competitive game or one with an objective set of rules and goals. If my only options were good trades or shitty trades I'd prefer the better set. Likewise with tools. But those are not your only choices nor are they a set of forced prescriptions you have to abide by. Because you are playing with other people's building blocks it is far more reasonable to police yourself and adhere to a playstyle that you agree with than ask the guy making the blocks to make them differently for you.

This isn't the first time this response has come up when I've commented on abusable systems. What would you say, for example, to a villager trade mod that allowed you to trade a stick for an emerald, or two emeralds for diamond gear? Or both at the same time in a default config?

I'd not care. Unless having another player that uses that trade negatively effects me (as in, he wins and the game ends or we are competing for a limited set of gears with no cooperation or possibility for recourse and I need the gears in order to play) I'd happily let that hypothetical player get all the diamond gears he wants because I don't have to and if I did it only matters if I let it. This isn't a competition and we don't have a fail state.

I get that you have an internal rulebook and set of balance ideas that you would greatly desire that mods follow but that isn't a reasonable position to take unless you are willing to make your own mod/s/pack that reflects those rules.

 

[Loufmier]

would you feel better if TiC disabled vanilla tools?

 

[Jadedcat]

would you feel better if TiC disabled vanilla tools?

Thats a config option already in there

 

[SatanicSanta]

would you feel better if TiC disabled vanilla tools?

B:"Remove Vanilla Tool Recipes"=true

Now, onto the OP
Just because someone makes a mod that makes better stuff to add to Vanilla does not make it OP. It makes it have more content. If everything had the equivalent to a GT Stone Pickaxe the game would get really lame, really fast. The whole point of a mod is to add more stuff to do. And about the whole repairing with a Tool Forge, that can become quite expensive when you start making Manyullyn tools. To me it sounds like Vanilla + IC2 and GT would be your kind of play, or just plain Vanilla.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Thats a config option already in there

You know... that would actually be pretty interesting. Normally I end up using a wooden and stone pickaxe before going to a TiCo pick with either iron or (if I can get it) steel... but if those were disabled, I could still do it, but it would require a bit more wooden infrastructure first.

I think I'm gonna have to try this next time. Thanks for the tip!

 

[RedBoss]

How many people are even using vanilla tools at all past a certain point in modded minecraft? It's almost a central understanding that mod's provide better tools that actually last versus the annoying vanilla tool system. Why are you even using mods if you don't like better options than vanilla?

 

[Mero]

I play modded minecraft because I'm entirely sick of vanilla. As in, to the point that I would not be playing minecraft at all anymore if it weren't for mods.

I completely expect mods to change/obsolete as much of vanilla as possible. Otherwise I would be playing vanilla.

Also, I have no problem whatsoever using or not using any part of any mod. I use a minium as a portable crafting bench only. I personally have no issue not using any part of a mod I consider too "op".

 

[PeggleFrank]

How many people are even using vanilla tools at all past a certain point in modded minecraft?

Diamond tools. Better than most things until you get started with MPS/higher tier TC tools.

 

[SatanicSanta]

Diamond tools. Better than most things until you get started with MPS/higher tier TC tools.

With a Diamond Drill and a Nano Saber diamond tools are meaningless. Also, Manyullyn isn't even that expensive, nor is Steel or Alumite and they are still far superior to Diamonds.

 

[Democretes]

Given that a TC tool is superior in every way to the corresponding vanilla tool, why ever make a vanilla tool?

Exactly! Why ever make a vanilla tool? You can make the same tool out of wood that's better, in every way shape or form, so why waste the time? TiC is basically an entire rework of the vanilla tool system. Take advantage of it! It's what the mod was made to do! Complaining about how it replaces vanilla tools is like complaining about every other mod that makes a better ore processing. Mods mix things up and make them better. To say that the mod is unbalanced is slightly unfair, as each too has less balance than another and certain items have an advantage. It's actually quite interesting what kind of combinations you can make with it. Instead of flashing a red light on something that's different from what is normally played, actually play with the system and see if you maybe even like it better than the old one.

 

[RedBoss]

Diamond tools. Better than most things until you get started with MPS/higher tier TC tools.

Steel mines at cobalt level and is simple to acquire. I never waste time with vanilla diamond tools.

 

[SatanicSanta]

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT

No. But something that adds an entire class of stuff that completely outpaces all vanilla items with no downside?

That doesn't make it OP.

Given that a TC tool is superior in every way to the corresponding vanilla tool, why ever make a vanilla tool?

Exactly.

And if it completely obsoletes a vanilla section of the game, can it be considered balanced?

Yes.

Reducing it to one extra slot normally means that while a vanilla tool can get 4 enchantment slots on it, you have to spend a little more to get that 4th slot on these tools. (Remember, most will start with efficiency and unbreaking). Given the infinite life / no XP to maintain, it's still stronger than vanilla, just no longer obscenely stronger.

That would suck and result in having a billion different picks, and you can choose enchantments in Vanilla via books.

And dropping to no extra slots for "hard challenge" packs, such as UHS, makes the vanilla tools serious contenders again.

That doesn't make it hard, that just makes it annoying.

This isn't the first time this response has come up when I've commented on abusable systems. What would you say, for example, to a villager trade mod that allowed you to trade a stick for an emerald, or two emeralds for diamond gear? Or both at the same time in a default config?

What does that have to do with this post?

This -- TC -- is a way to make tools with built-in enchantments. And, you can make them last longer, even forever, at no XP cost or RNG chance taking. So how powerful should they be?

Just about every single mod that adds tools adds this functionality, it's not just TiC.

Do you think that the vanilla enchanting mechanism is so broken as to be useless? Prior to the anvil and the enchanted book, I would have agreed. Now, I disagree. Is the balance in vanilla perfect? Probably not, but it's reasonably close. (*) Does this mod even come close to being in balance with vanilla? No.

Vanilla Enchantment was never broken, ever. It is a magical thing, it doesn't even have to be balanced.

Dropping down to one base slot makes it only slightly better than vanilla.



Dropping it down to zero base slots make it on par with vanilla -- there's now reasons to use both systems.

No, that makes it worse. An Unbreaking 3, Efficiency 5, Fortune 3 diamond pickaxe is WAY better than a Manyullyn pickaxe, or a manyullyn pickaxe with Fortune 3. You can repair Vanilla tools, why would you not be able to repair TiC tools? Also, it's a whole new machanic, which is why it's even in the modpack.

So after playing around with Tinkerer's Construct a little, I'm a bit thrown by balance.

TC tools can be made from better materials, giving built-in efficiency.
Many have built-in unbreaking as well.

I believe one specific set of pieces gives unbreaking, which is extremely expensive. The rest do not give built in anything except for the things that make sense for the material (eg. Reinforced for Obsidian, Stonebound for stone, Spiny for Cacti).

While you cannot toss them at enchanting tables, you can craft (guaranteed) things like silk touch, or improved efficiency; you can add fortune, etc.

Oh, you mean like the Enchanting Books? Also, things like Fortune 3 cost boat loads of Lapis.

And things you can't get in vanilla: Auto smelt.

Welcome to modded Minecraft, where we have new mechanics. It's kind of the whole point.

And then there's self repair (moss), or work-station repair (more materials); no XP cost to make, upgrade, or maintain. The tool never goes poof.

With no downside.

The downside is material loss.

For balance reasons, can the default number of "extra slots" on tools be dropped to either 1 (normal play), or zero (ultra hard mode play); extra slots would come from paper, thaumium, or adding mineral blocks to buy slots.

Make an addon yourself.

Simply put: There is no reason to make a vanilla tool at all with this mod installed.
That alone tells me that there is a serious balance problem.

That's kind of the reason for the mod.

Equally, the 2 to 1 bonus of using the smeltery results in no real reason to ever use a vanilla furnace, except to make one. Simply put, that bonus is too high. No, I don't know what to do for balancing that.

You mean like a Quartz Grindstone? The smeltery requires lava, while the grindstone requires it to be crafted and cranked. Guise dis so op it need nerf.
Gimme a break.

 

[PierceSG]

Players who have issue with how modded content overshadows vanilla content should not play with most mods.

 

[SatanicSanta]

Players who have issue with how modded content overshadows vanilla content should not play with most mods.