The moment of truth has arrived...

[Inaeo]

If you missed the Modder's panel at MineCon livetweet this morning, a youngster asked the panel about the new version's effect on modding. Lexmanos answered that there is no shim like Forge available yet, but that MSoft engineers were "following him around" asking him questions about Forge

That was more in reference to:

News from Minecon, acquired via MCF, states that there are no mods yet on MC: Win10 Edition.

It hasn't released yet. Of course nobody has modded it yet. Give it time to unfold before succumbing to disappointment.

Edit to add: If MS was being sincere with their statements when the first acquired MC, they will work on a modding API with diligence. They had stated (I paraphrase) that they intended to use MC to increase interest in youth programming. Basically, they want to use this cultural phenomenon of a game to train the next generation code monkeys. If they succeed, the sky is the limit for what we can accomplish (both in MC, and in general).

 

[chakratos]

I HOPE they gonna let me make Mods in C#

 

[Strikingwolf]

Basically, they want to use this cultural phenomenon of a game to train the next generation code monkeys. If they succeed, the sky is the limit for what we can accomplish (both in MC, and in general).

That's scary. Like, very scary. I don't want MC to become a training ground for the code monkeys. I want it to be a training ground for the game designers and programmers of the future

I HOPE they gonna let me make Mods in C#

That would be nice. Or F# :3

But C++ is something I'm not opposed to. Although, if I had to choose a systems language I would choose Rust

 

[Inaeo]

You will have to excuse me, as I group those all together in my head. Yes, I mean they want to use MC as a platform to train modders, programmers, game designers, and the like whilst they are still in middle school. The idea is simple: the more kids we can get interested in programming now, the better crop we will have to hire from in a decade. If they can disguise education as a game, everybody wins.

 

[FyberOptic]

MCPE is written in C++ so I'm fairly confident you'll never see mods written in C#. I'm also fairly confident you won't see mods written in C++ either. At least not officially condoned ones. The possibility of malicious software is just too high, and it would be incredibly difficult to see what exactly they're doing. To be honest with you, I'd never run a mod made in C++ on my system unless it was open-source. It's part of why I don't mess with mods on MCPE currently, despite the more sandboxed nature of the phone.

Mojang dropped the idea of client-based mods a long time ago, outside of command block scripting at least. The plugin API, if that ever exists, will be server-side. You'll apparently just interact with vanilla clients. That could still be somewhat powerful if it allows sending dynamic command block scripts to clients. But you still lose some responsiveness when the client ends up being treated as a dumb terminal, as 1.8 demonstrates. I don't see why the mindset of avoiding client modifications would change for this version of the game either.

Anyhoo, I pulled the MCPE APK from my phone last night and disassembled it, and found that it does indeed contain symbols as I'd been told before. So while code analysis is incredibly hard compared to working with Java, at least you have a roadmap of where to be. Though this is working under the assumption that the dev team leaves symbols in the Win10 edition.

 

[Type1Ninja]

I know I'm a bit late, but:
If, in the future, this Win10 version catches on and gets compatibility with other platforms, AND MS has done a good job with the hypothetical modding API, then modding will become more universal and get more support and just have fewer issues. Hypothetically.
As for training the new generation - well, good for them for taking the initiative. I, for one, like coding, and more people to talk with is great.

 

[Strikingwolf]

You will have to excuse me, as I group those all together in my head. Yes, I mean they want to use MC as a platform to train modders, programmers, game designers, and the like whilst they are still in middle school. The idea is simple: the more kids we can get interested in programming now, the better crop we will have to hire from in a decade. If they can disguise education as a game, everybody wins.

Understandable. I'm just transitioning out of middle school and started my programming experience with Objective-C, but MC has been a big part of it to

MCPE is written in C++ so I'm fairly confident you'll never see mods written in C#. I'm also fairly confident you won't see mods written in C++ either. At least not officially condoned ones. The possibility of malicious software is just too high, and it would be incredibly difficult to see what exactly they're doing. To be honest with you, I'd never run a mod made in C++ on my system unless it was open-source. It's part of why I don't mess with mods on MCPE currently, despite the more sandboxed nature of the phone.

Mojang dropped the idea of client-based mods a long time ago, outside of command block scripting at least. The plugin API, if that ever exists, will be server-side. You'll apparently just interact with vanilla clients. That could still be somewhat powerful if it allows sending dynamic command block scripts to clients. But you still lose some responsiveness when the client ends up being treated as a dumb terminal, as 1.8 demonstrates. I don't see why the mindset of avoiding client modifications would change for this version of the game either.

Anyhoo, I pulled the MCPE APK from my phone last night and disassembled it, and found that it does indeed contain symbols as I'd been told before. So while code analysis is incredibly hard compared to working with Java, at least you have a roadmap of where to be. Though this is working under the assumption that the dev team leaves symbols in the Win10 edition.

Yeah, malicious code is very easy if you have client access...maybe a custom language designed for embedded scripting? Or a sandboxed language? I'd prefer that we have some client access and have full control over files, but still have safety if file access is limited to say, one sandboxed folder and things of that nature

 

[Inaeo]

I know I'm a bit late, but:
If, in the future, this Win10 version catches on and gets compatibility with other platforms, AND MS has done a good job with the hypothetical modding API, then modding will become more universal and get more support and just have fewer issues. Hypothetically.
As for training the new generation - well, good for them for taking the initiative. I, for one, like coding, and more people to talk with is great.

Let's not kid ourselves. There is a high probability that this blows up in their face, in one way or another. The method they are using is completely self serving, which is fine with me, so long as they are OK with admitting to it.

Honestly, I feel like MC has been a big reason that so many people have explored Java programming. Sure, there is a ton of other applicable uses, but MC has been a gateway drug for a lot of people. It's safe to assume that MS saw this as well, and realized that if they could move the codebase to something more universally useful, they could train a small army of young coders.

 

[Psychicash]

Let's not kid ourselves. There is a high probability that this blows up in their face, in one way or another.

I hope that this doesn't completely destroy the game. Minecraft is unique in this area. I don't know of another game with such a broad community. People ask if I play minecraft. My answer is "which one?" There's many choices out there.

My main concern is that though C++ is more universal and will probably address the memory leaks inherent in java, it may not... be as mod friendly. The one thing that really just makes me shake my head is the dreaded abuse of the GOTO command. But hey I love Italian.

 

[FyberOptic]

My main concern is that though C++ is more universal and will probably address the memory leaks inherent in java, it may not... be as mod friendly.

If anything, mods in C++ would be more prone to memory leaks. That's part of the charm of Java, that a modder can be sloppy or just overlook something and the design of the language tolerates that to a degree through virtue of the garbage collector and no direct memory access. C++ isn't forgiving in a lot of ways, memory allocation being only one of them.

C++ is also just a pain to work with once you get comfortable with Java. Header files, circular dependencies, no code hot-swapping, less friendly debugging and profiling, no truly good Visual Studio alternative (Eclipse comes closest, ironically), cryptic error messages, etc, etc. It's not that I don't like C++, I've used it for far more years than Java and for more platforms. But modding is a fun hobby and I enjoy it being done in a language that isn't such an annoyance to use, and that by its nature allows modification more easily.

 

[Strikingwolf]

I say if MC does go the c++ route it needs to use a scripting Lang for modding that can go down to c++ if it absolutely needs to

I do not fancy hundreds of Modders all addressing their own memory. As well as all of them with the spaghetti code that c++ can produce in he wrong hands

 

[Type1Ninja]

I say if MC does go the c++ route it needs to use a scripting Lang for modding that can go down to c++ if it absolutely needs to

I do not fancy hundreds of Modders all addressing their own memory. As well as all of them with the spaghetti code that c++ can produce in he wrong hands

"Welcome to computers. This is a wonderful place where- DON'T TOUCH THAT IT'LL-" *poof*
It seems like everything having to do with programming is *really fragile,* no matter which language you use. Not sure what side of "C++ vs. Java" that puts me on, but it seems pertinent.

 

[chakratos]

If there´s an Modding API in C++ i will make an C# API from that (DLL Calls FTW!)
And because C# ist near on Java i think that will help many modders.

 

[Azzanine]

Code discussion aside, as far as the players are concerned I don't think it will take on untill at least 100% of the popular mods are ported.
I know I wont play the MS version untill Thaumcraft and its suite of addons are ported over and not a moment sooner.
Modded players wont want to go without their toys for any amount of performance benefit. I mean if we can already make the java version much faster by removing mods. Vanilla MC actually runs hella smooth these days, but that could just be me being used to heavy mod packs dragging performance.
All I am saying is the performance increase would have to be unreasonably blisteringly fast for me to jump over.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

 

[Hambeau]

You will have to excuse me, as I group those all together in my head. Yes, I mean they want to use MC as a platform to train modders, programmers, game designers, and the like whilst they are still in middle school. The idea is simple: the more kids we can get interested in programming now, the better crop we will have to hire from in a decade. If they can disguise education as a game, everybody wins.

They want to also use MC as an example for other training as well. Problem solving is pretty common with any application, even Outlook and Powerpoint

I've seen mention that MSoft is giving thought to use MC to teach Database concepts in early education and perhaps elevating Excel from the most common use as a sortable list (phone #'s, to-do, etc.)

 

[Hambeau]

"Welcome to computers. This is a wonderful place where- DON'T TOUCH THAT IT'LL-" *poof*
It seems like everything having to do with programming is *really fragile,* no matter which language you use. Not sure what side of "C++ vs. Java" that puts me on, but it seems pertinent.

My thought on this is that, in general, the more a language handles things for you the less concise a programmer will be produced. I feel a good C++ programmer who picks up Java will most likely be better than a programmer who starts with Java, primarily because the C++ programmer has had to be more careful while coding since C++ doesn't hold your hand as much as Java does. This is not to say there are no Great Java programmers out there who could be better, however.

<old_man_ramblings>

In my opinion anyone who is really serious about programming should pick up a bit ([Edit] I just saw what I did here ) of machine code experience, where there is very little help from the language to prevent problems. Learn how the Status Register is used by the various branching instructions to control program flow, How to avoid page boundary issues that cause programs to fail, how to optimize a program by finding the most cycle friendly execution loops, how to conserve resources like memory, that sort of thing.

</old_man_ramblings>

 

[Type1Ninja]

My thought on this is that, in general, the more a language handles things for you the less concise a programmer will be produced. I feel a good C++ programmer who picks up Java will most likely be better than a programmer who starts with Java, primarily because the C++ programmer has had to be more careful while coding since C++ doesn't hold your hand as much as Java does. This is not to say there are no Great Java programmers out there who could be better, however.

<old_man_ramblings>

In my opinion anyone who is really serious about programming should pick up a bit ([Edit] I just saw what I did here ) of machine code experience, where there is very little help from the language to prevent problems. Learn how the Status Register is used by the various branching instructions to control program flow, How to avoid page boundary issues that cause programs to fail, how to optimize a program by finding the most cycle friendly execution loops, how to conserve resources like memory, that sort of thing.

</old_man_ramblings>

Still, though. Miss a single letter in ANY language, and the whole thing blows up in your face.

 

[Strikingwolf]

My thought on this is that, in general, the more a language handles things for you the less concise a programmer will be produced. I feel a good C++ programmer who picks up Java will most likely be better than a programmer who starts with Java, primarily because the C++ programmer has had to be more careful while coding since C++ doesn't hold your hand as much as Java does. This is not to say there are no Great Java programmers out there who could be better, however.

<old_man_ramblings>

In my opinion anyone who is really serious about programming should pick up a bit ([Edit] I just saw what I did here ) of machine code experience, where there is very little help from the language to prevent problems. Learn how the Status Register is used by the various branching instructions to control program flow, How to avoid page boundary issues that cause programs to fail, how to optimize a program by finding the most cycle friendly execution loops, how to conserve resources like memory, that sort of thing.

</old_man_ramblings>

I disagree, I think you can become a great programmer in any language, and this is coming from a LISP fan

 

[Type1Ninja]

I disagree, I think you can become a great programmer in any language, and this is coming from a LISP fan

I think @Hambeau's point was that C++ produces the best overall programmers the easiest; not that all other languages teach bad habits.

 

[Hambeau]

Still, though. Miss a single letter in ANY language, and the whole thing blows up in your face.

True, but Java tends to tell you where that letter was missing. Try forgetting a semicolon at the end of a line in a C/C++ program...