Yeah I love the creative node... oh man did I love it. I got absolutely sick of my aura nodes just disappearing every time a server I played on got a new protection plugin... I had to chain treese to my house, grow an aura node, only have it disappear again in the near future. Now it's an actual physical block that admins can place if need be...
Thaumcraft 4 is Released!
- Thread starter Pokefenn
- Start date
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Welcome to the loud mouth club lolI see good things for FTB 1.6.
Also, Ooh! I'm a Well-Known now~!
There's a tool for that. Look at Dire's first video in the 2-3/3 section.
So, something I've noticed about Researching that as I'm making my guide REALLY makes my life harder.
This is my finished research for the Silverwood Wand Core. As you can see I've used two types of aspect runes to bridge it, however there are actually three aspects you can use. The activated runes in this case are Instrumentum and Praecantatio. The one I haven't used, which uses the _\ . rune is Arbor.
So in theory, while you could unlock 3 activate rune types, you only need 2 to complete the puzzle depending on how it's generated and how you solve it.
I don't think I need to tell you how much of a pain it would be for me to go through every single damn aspect on every research, picking out which are inactive aspects, red herrings and actives and I've only just noticed this now, so what I have already is basically in question because I don't know if there's other possible aspects I haven't included.
I'm going to be honest guys... I don't wanna do all this damn research over again...
You've basically admitted what I mentioned in my earlier post, this mini game will get annoying after it's lost it's novelty, making players less inclined to dive into TC4 again on different servers/map resets/new worlds. That will result in the mod being less popular despite all the fancy graphics and toys.
I think the main problem, base on what I've watched, is there is a lot of clicking to unlock the research. Moving the runes around to connect the lines is a needless timesink. I'm thinking (and most likely wrong) it could have been done with a 3x3 grid, that works like the mastermind game, which tells you which colours (runes/aspects) are correct and those that are correct but in the wrong place. Apart from the more expensive research recipes like the above, the amount of clicking would be reduced but the aspect cost would be about the same.
I just feel that in time, this part of the mod is going to get another overhaul. It might be just me, as I'm not fond of mini-games within games. Another example is the IC2 nuclear generators. I'd rather build the components to make a large multiblock structure, then just place them in a pattern within a inventory.
You're grasping at straws. I haven't admitted anything.
I've noticed that as someone who's making the guide it's annoying how you can complete research without all the aspects.
In fact what I said if you actually read into it is it's better this way as a player because it's simpler to complete research than people think it is.
I'd rather much have it this way than TC3's way as it makes it look wasteful and slow in contrast.
It's like you're trying too hard to pick out things wrong with the mod. Seriously I did th research. Nearly all of it. If I hadn't spent time writing down notes for myself and the guide it'd have taken me an hour. Tops.
Besides it's not like time is so valuable to you to waste if you're spending it playing Minecraft anyway.[DOUBLEPOST=1381315506][/DOUBLEPOST]
Nodes. Lots of nodes.
If you take your thaumometer to everything possible you should be able to get them no problem.
Don't forget to research dropped items and creatures. They give research points too.
Click - Here - If you want to see some aspect combinations if you can't research some stuff. (Spoilers, just saying)
Also The Deconstructor.
Alright so I've woken up a bit more and I've thought about what you said.
Yes. You have a point.
The method and execution of research is new. Young. It's ineffiecient and if you're new like I was it's slow.
Will it be revamped? Well possibly. But I don't think it will. At least not much.
Y'see yes, it's all of the above but it still works, it's still being commended for it's inovative method and for actually seeming like you're researching something rather than just kissing goodbye to all your crap.
The thought behind this is here to stay and it's not going to change much if at all. It's just how it is. If Anazor cared for time he'd not have the infusion setup he does.
I bet you never even thought about new infusion yet.[/quote]
Well, not to get into an argument, but based on the tone of your post, with the multiple damns, it came across (to me) that you did not enjoy doing the research.
I've read your post a few times now, and I still can't "read into it" that it's a better system. That's the one problem with forums, it's so easy to misunderstand what someone is trying to say.
I doubt though it's taken you an hour to complete most of the research, there are a lot of research projects (from what I've seen in the thauminomicon). That would mean 1 minute or less to identify the aspects, move the runes around, read the research results (to unlock later research).
Time is a sensitive subject. For myself, time is quite valuable, and it seems that TC4 is going to take up a lot of my time on the research. I got quite frustrated with the slowness of TC3 (as you indicated) and this looks like it could be the same. Until I try it, it's all first impressions based on watching other people try out the mod.
I do like that there is no resource cost for the research. TC3 did hit you with a 3x cost to get it's items. First the research cost to get the aspects from materials, then the material cost to build the object, and again the material cost to get the needed aspects.
Just to be clear, based on first impressions, while the research system is more impressive, it appears to be more of a time investment and so turn people away from research again (and again) in new worlds.
Hopefully I'm proved wrong. I am looking forward to using the mod. Just the research system still seems the "weak" part of the mod.
Edit:
As you've replied as I was replying
I'm aware of the infusion crafting. I'm in two minds on that one. It's a nice system, but I'm not keen on having to babysit the crafting process to ensure that items remain on pedestals, replace destroyed items, etc.
Not so big a deal on items you might only need 1 one, but on some things that you might need a lot off, it would get frustrating
I've read your post a few times now, and I still can't "read into it" that it's a better system. That's the one problem with forums, it's so easy to misunderstand what someone is trying to say.
I doubt though it's taken you an hour to complete most of the research, there are a lot of research projects (from what I've seen in the thauminomicon). That would mean 1 minute or less to identify the aspects, move the runes around, read the research results (to unlock later research).
Time is a sensitive subject. For myself, time is quite valuable, and it seems that TC4 is going to take up a lot of my time on the research. I got quite frustrated with the slowness of TC3 (as you indicated) and this looks like it could be the same. Until I try it, it's all first impressions based on watching other people try out the mod.
I do like that there is no resource cost for the research. TC3 did hit you with a 3x cost to get it's items. First the research cost to get the aspects from materials, then the material cost to build the object, and again the material cost to get the needed aspects.
Just to be clear, based on first impressions, while the research system is more impressive, it appears to be more of a time investment and so turn people away from research again (and again) in new worlds.
Hopefully I'm proved wrong. I am looking forward to using the mod. Just the research system still seems the "weak" part of the mod.
Edit:
As you've replied as I was replying
I'm aware of the infusion crafting. I'm in two minds on that one. It's a nice system, but I'm not keen on having to babysit the crafting process to ensure that items remain on pedestals, replace destroyed items, etc.
Not so big a deal on items you might only need 1 one, but on some things that you might need a lot off, it would get frustrating
What we can take from this is that Thaumcraft is an inherantly slow mod. It's not a bad thing but in contrast to other quicker mods we probably got spoiled.
EE is a good example of a slow burning mod. At least in the beginning, but you have to remember that you only need to research once in one game. It's not as if this could follow you throughout your entire playthrough.
It's as I've said before. If people are too lazy then they have no business playing.
As some one who works 8 - 10 hours a day, does basic chores around my apartment, normal life stuff, etc, I don't have a lot of time to game, as I'm sure many will agree with me. It's not laziness that would stop us from doing all this research, it's the fact that we would rather be actually *playing* or doing something else. I love a lot of the new mechanics in TC4, but research is a needless time sync. In addition, I can't just cheat in a Thaum cheat sheet, and go at it anymore. I still need to research aspects and such, which means it doesn't save me much time at all.
I'd rather waste resources then waste my time. Please don't call that laziness.
Pretty sure the idea behind research is for you to slowly discover cool new things to play so you can enjoy each bit at a time. As opposed to
A) Having an entire wiki open and knowing exactly what the mod contains and immediately plotting out your Golem + Nuclear Reactor + Biogas Engine + Rolling Machine automation room and tossing everything else to the wayside in the name of efficiency.
B) Having no clue what the mod contains and just randomly fumbling with NEI or ignoring the mod entirely.
One of my favorite moments in TC mods is when I complete a research for something I've never seen before and get to marvel at it and play with it.
I think one of the big problems is that we've all watched videos, seen builds online, or just played TC enough times that we know what sort of things are coming and are too impatient to just get to the pieces we want than to stop and smell the research.
Can call it impatience instead.
A) Having an entire wiki open and knowing exactly what the mod contains and immediately plotting out your Golem + Nuclear Reactor + Biogas Engine + Rolling Machine automation room and tossing everything else to the wayside in the name of efficiency.
B) Having no clue what the mod contains and just randomly fumbling with NEI or ignoring the mod entirely.
One of my favorite moments in TC mods is when I complete a research for something I've never seen before and get to marvel at it and play with it.
I think one of the big problems is that we've all watched videos, seen builds online, or just played TC enough times that we know what sort of things are coming and are too impatient to just get to the pieces we want than to stop and smell the research.
Can call it impatience instead.
I suppose I can agree to that. =P Still, if I have the stuff... research just is a huge roadblock of time. I'm gonna avoid TC4, and leave it for my server mates. XDCan call it impatience instead.
-Sigh- Just let it go, Anna.
Nope, gotta have my damn say (as usual)
Look there's laziness and then there's prefering one thing over another. I get that. Really I do and I can see why people would prefer TC3's research setup to the new.
But when people say "I don't want to waste my time" about a game purely dedicated to killing time and being generally counter productive, they are contradicting themselves, and just so there's no confusion here I'm not saying you should do other things with your time. People like playing Minec- no, games in general. I like playing games. I'm a gamer. I get it. But I know when my time's being wasted. I have a doctorate, a wedding- my wedding to plan and work, whenever I have free time I'm always conscious that I'm wasting it because I'm so dang used to being busy.
So don't give me "The mod is making me waste my time" because it's not. It doesn't care about your time. Minecraft doesn't care about your time. FTB doesn't care about your time.
You're sitting here by your computer, just like me, using your time on stuff that is more or less irrelevant to your life as a whole. That's your doing. Our doing. Not theirs.
Now regarding laziness. Fine. I (happily) retract my statement. Lazy people do have a business playing games if they want to. But they have no business complaining that mod writers don't design their stuff with lazy people in mind because they won't. There's a word for mods that do, they're called cheat-mods. It ruins it for the people who aren't lazy and who actually want to put the time in and when it comes to TC4 there's nothing in it that requires much work. It's simple once you grasp the concept. Really. It is.
You guys argue over the semantics, I'm going to bed.
Nope, gotta have my damn say (as usual)
Look there's laziness and then there's prefering one thing over another. I get that. Really I do and I can see why people would prefer TC3's research setup to the new.
But when people say "I don't want to waste my time" about a game purely dedicated to killing time and being generally counter productive, they are contradicting themselves, and just so there's no confusion here I'm not saying you should do other things with your time. People like playing Minec- no, games in general. I like playing games. I'm a gamer. I get it. But I know when my time's being wasted. I have a doctorate, a wedding- my wedding to plan and work, whenever I have free time I'm always conscious that I'm wasting it because I'm so dang used to being busy.
So don't give me "The mod is making me waste my time" because it's not. It doesn't care about your time. Minecraft doesn't care about your time. FTB doesn't care about your time.
You're sitting here by your computer, just like me, using your time on stuff that is more or less irrelevant to your life as a whole. That's your doing. Our doing. Not theirs.
Now regarding laziness. Fine. I (happily) retract my statement. Lazy people do have a business playing games if they want to. But they have no business complaining that mod writers don't design their stuff with lazy people in mind because they won't. There's a word for mods that do, they're called cheat-mods. It ruins it for the people who aren't lazy and who actually want to put the time in and when it comes to TC4 there's nothing in it that requires much work. It's simple once you grasp the concept. Really. It is.
You guys argue over the semantics, I'm going to bed.
Research isn't a huge roadblock of time, quite a few people find it interesting and fun. If you're having fun, are you wasting time? I beg to differ. You as a person may not enjoy the research there but many others will, and saying that the other form of research is better than this due to its lesser time sync isn't particularly true. Once you get the hang of the new research system, it takes less than a minute to actually complete the research and requires no material investment in the process. It also doesn't require perfection when entirely uninformed of the process. In TC3 research, figuring out all the aspects yourself was, quite frankly, a pain. Most of the time, you'd miss one aspect and would have to spend dozens of items trying to find the one aspect you'd forgotten. Now, you only need roughly half of the aspects required making it by far more simple to achieve research.
And if you're really to impatient to actually do the research, despite it being an excellent mechanic, Azanor will probably make a cheat sheet sometime in the near future.
This is a comparison to our arguments.
-------------------------
New in TC5, you have to play and win at a Pac Man mingame to get your research finished!
"Oh wow, how fun, this will never get boring!"
"Well what if some of us don't like Pac Man or are inherently bad at Pac Man type minigames?" * I myself am bad at this research mechanic. It just doesn't click for me, as well as a few of my server mates *
"OH well, it's easy, it's a fun mechanic, it's quick to do, etc."
" So I have to play through at least ~50 mingames that to play with more advanced stuff in the mod?"
" It's easy, if you don't want to do it, you must be lazy"
-------------------------
Obviously PacMan is a bad example but....
Just because some people find it fun, and non time consuming, doesn't mean other's do not find it extremely tedious and lengthy.
Honestly, TC3 research was only a pain the 1st time around, after that, you could fly through it on other worlds. With TC4, it's possible that each play through can take longer, or the same amount of time and tedium.
I like that Azanor is thinking outside the box, but I don't think this is the right direction.
@ Democretes
It already has the research cheat sheet, but it doesn't unlock the all the various aspects for you. Probably just a bug in the version, but it still means that I currently have to run around the world scanning everything, which itself in a huge time sink.... That you need to do on every world/server. I digress though, because he probably will fix that or implement it shortly.
-------------------------
New in TC5, you have to play and win at a Pac Man mingame to get your research finished!
"Oh wow, how fun, this will never get boring!"
"Well what if some of us don't like Pac Man or are inherently bad at Pac Man type minigames?" * I myself am bad at this research mechanic. It just doesn't click for me, as well as a few of my server mates *
"OH well, it's easy, it's a fun mechanic, it's quick to do, etc."
" So I have to play through at least ~50 mingames that to play with more advanced stuff in the mod?"
" It's easy, if you don't want to do it, you must be lazy"
-------------------------
Obviously PacMan is a bad example but....
Just because some people find it fun, and non time consuming, doesn't mean other's do not find it extremely tedious and lengthy.
Honestly, TC3 research was only a pain the 1st time around, after that, you could fly through it on other worlds. With TC4, it's possible that each play through can take longer, or the same amount of time and tedium.
I like that Azanor is thinking outside the box, but I don't think this is the right direction.
@ Democretes
It already has the research cheat sheet, but it doesn't unlock the all the various aspects for you. Probably just a bug in the version, but it still means that I currently have to run around the world scanning everything, which itself in a huge time sink.... That you need to do on every world/server. I digress though, because he probably will fix that or implement it shortly.
I'm not exactly enjoying research, but at least I get it now. Check out Haighyorkie on YouTube. He's a really good teacher when it comes to Thaumcraft. He also warns you when there will be research spoilers.
++ He has his own mod packs on ATLauncher so if you want a ready made and supported 1.6.4 pack besides Resonant Rise, he offers one as well.
++ He has his own mod packs on ATLauncher so if you want a ready made and supported 1.6.4 pack besides Resonant Rise, he offers one as well.
I think you're selling Minecraft (and other games) a bit short here. Doing something that you enjoy doesn't feel like (and isn't) a waste of time, and is not about "killing time". So if a player feels like something is wasting their time, it simply means they have stopped enjoying it.
A mod is never making anyone waste their time, that is true. It's optional to use it. However, if it *feels* like it is wasting your time, that can be indicative of poor design. In my experience, very few (non-children) players, are looking for "push-button-win-game" mechanics. So when they feel like a game is wasting their time, something might be wrong.
Given that this is the mod discussion forum and a thread for Thaumcraft, I think it's a bit strange to try and discourage players from presenting their opinions about the mod in question.