Tech mods: Why have a power system?

[skruis]

Just wanted to throw my $0.02 out there as a 'user' and not someone w/ tons of experience as the core commentators in this thread appear to have but the thing is, there are a lot of play styles. Currently, I'm not interested in managing power above making sure I have enough and getting it to where it needs to be. The concepts of pressure, rate, etc. are all cool ideas but sometimes, you're just not interested in managing that kind of stuff. Right now, I have a big reactor, some dimensional transceivers and of course, the machines they power. The power 'game' for me right now is just meeting demand and making sure it looks planned but the power game itself is only 2% of Minecraft for me. I'm not a quarry user and I'm not into auto-crafting, they have their uses but for how I like to play the game, they're OP. I still mine for my own stuff and use the crafting terminal to build components. It's just the 'right' difficulty/time ratio for me compared to the other stuff I like to do: mining, farming, building, exploring, etc. In my play style, power and equipment are a small part of what I want so, while I know some of you want a challenge when it comes to power generation, distribution and usage, keep in mind, that's just 1 play style. For people like me where power is only a partial challenge, RF is ideal because of it's vast mod support and IC2 or other systems are kind of annoying because you might have to build an entirely different generation/delivery mechanism for that. I grudgingly built a compressor to turn blaze powder from redstone'd glowstone into blaze rods and then used RedNet Power cables to connect that to my RF grid. That lack of uniformity (all of these ender IO cables and then 1 RedNet Power cable) irked me but like I said, that's 'me' and my play style. Some of the posts to this thread come off as kind of dismissive of RF and even the people that use it.

Also, you can probably increase the difficulty of RF if you add in a tertiary mod that checks the minimum RF/t for machines and if they overload (connect a cable that provides more than the minimum and actually supply more than the minimum) for X ticks, turn the machine off for a cool down period. Then that same mod adds in 'buffers' to allow you to scale down the RF/t to an adjustable amount. Have multiple sets of buffers that can handle certain amounts of RF each with a progressively more expensive recipe. It's not overly complex but it will require some additional logic, time and planning and you keep RF compatibility. That would be a nice progression thing for those of us that currently don't want to focus on power but eventually want to take the next step in that direction.

 

[jordsta95]

I've only read the first page and don't really have time to read through all of them, so hit me with a stick if this has already been asked/discussed:

What's stopping some modder from creating their own energy system, let's say with somewhat realistic/complicated properties, and then creating cables/pipes/whatever that connect to both EU and RF machines, detects those machines and only provides rf/eu power to them equivalent to the power in the pipes, or even special strenghts like a pulverizer needing a high current before it receives energy, or even explode them. If there was a mod sorely focusing around generators and wireing, with a neat config that let's users add rf/eu compatible tile entities to the list with custom strenghts, maybe even a public repository where people can submit these, I would definitely use it. I would remove any other wireing from my modpack instantly.

While it's not going to be the best solution, at least with something like that we could theoretically create a more complex/interesting (for those that want it) energy system while still retaining compatibility to the 2 major energy systems. It would have it's limitations like not being able to change the machines speed by increasing current/voltage, but at least we could set realistic limitations/restrictions on machinery. Power loss and such would be handled by the cables, so isn't something to worry about.

Rotarycraft adds a realistic/number-crunching power system

 

[Type1Ninja]

Rotarycraft adds a realistic/number-crunching power system

But Reika doesn't like people messing with the balance of his mod - whether that's good or bad is not something we should discuss here. RF, as I (and now @skruis) mentioned, has every utility imaginable, and Rotarycraft simply doesn't provide that.
Just to prevent anyone from arguing that Rotarycraft DOES, in fact, have every utility - Rotarycraft has no ways to create customized dimensions, but RFTools does.

 

[CreeperShift]

Rotarycraft adds a realistic/number-crunching power system

That's really not what I meant . I've played with all the mods that add their own energy systems, but what I meant is something different. Rotarycraft needs a block that converts these energy types (EDIT: RotaryCraft power to RF), I don't really want that.

I was rather talking about a complete replacement that still works for RF/EU. Doesn't even need to have realistic/number crunching. Just something that adds a little meaning, logic and thinking to how to plan your power system, instead of just, put block, put wire, there done forever.

 

[OreCruncher]

That's really not what I meant . I've played with all the mods that add their own energy systems, but what I meant is something different. Rotarycraft needs a block that converts these energy types (EDIT: RotaryCraft power to RF), I don't really want that.

I was rather talking about a complete replacement that still works for RF/EU. Doesn't even need to have realistic/number crunching. Just something that adds a little meaning, logic and thinking to how to plan your power system, instead of just, put block, put wire, there done forever.

An idea I had bubbling in my head are stationary bike like generators where a bunch of zombies peddle their hearts out generating power. Or treadmill stalls where you can put in a pig and attach a carrot on the stick to generate power.

 

[Type1Ninja]

An idea I had bubbling in my head are stationary bike like generators where a bunch of zombies peddle their hearts out generating power. Or treadmill stalls where you can put in a pig and attach a carrot on the stick to generate power.

Sync had the pig treadmills. They were meant to power the cloning thingies, but they also produced RF.

 

[keybounce]

That's really not what I meant . I've played with all the mods that add their own energy systems, but what I meant is something different. Rotarycraft needs a block that converts these energy types (EDIT: RotaryCraft power to RF), I don't really want that.

I was rather talking about a complete replacement that still works for RF/EU. Doesn't even need to have realistic/number crunching. Just something that adds a little meaning, logic and thinking to how to plan your power system, instead of just, put block, put wire, there done forever.

RotaryCraft DOES have outputs to all the other major power systems. The output to RF has no hazards or problems or risks of any kind -- it just works. For low-end engines, there is no loss or maintenance (even 4 RoC steam engines -- one DC engine running a pump, a few pipes, 4 steam engines, 4 netherrack, 4 flames, some shafts/junctions, and a dynamo)

Higher end, the RoC engines need fuel, and you'll either waste power or else need gears and automated lubricant.

Just to prevent anyone from arguing that Rotarycraft DOES, in fact, have every utility - Rotarycraft has no ways to create customized dimensions, but RFTools does.

And this is the thing that started me on the "How can I balance RF against RoC?" question.

I want to use RfTools in a pack where RoC is the only starting/early game source of RF (everything else requires deep resonance crystals only found in RfTools dimensions).

What I ran into -- and still don't have understood/solved well enough -- is that RF just freely adds all the power next to it. Put 5 generators next to a power consumer, and it gets 5 times as much power at no extra anything. Put 5 of those relatively lower-end RF systems next to a dimension builder, and you've got the equivalent of a full engine skip on the RoC side.

RoC wants to make power not just a "trivial" thing; RF seems to want to make it "mostly trivial". Consumables required, yes, but automated mining/processing of those consumables, generally easy to set up.

So I asked what I did not understand: if RF makes the power requirements "mostly trivial", why have power requirements in the first place?

I've seen people respond (so far) everything from "I don't like power systems, I want to play Mine, Craft, and Build, I like RF because it's simple and it doesn't really get in my way" to "I like the complexity of power systems and want more than just RF".

====

Someone (sorry, I did not add it to multiquote as I was reading) mentioned the idea of no power required, and just lots of processing blocks taking very little time. Doesn't minetweaker let you simulate that by giving the creative energy cell a simple recipe? Have you tried that, and how have you enjoyed it so far?

 

[Pyure]

So I asked what I did not understand: if RF makes the power requirements "mostly trivial", why have power requirements in the first place?

A sort of suspension of disbelief perhaps? A sense that you're actually accomplishing something, justified or otherwise?

The problem with asking your question is that it starts infringing on the philosophical: if we might as well just have powerless machines, why are we using the machines in the first place? Why are we building these houses in the first place? Why are we playing minecraft in the first place?

 

[CreeperShift]

RotaryCraft DOES have outputs to all the other major power systems. The output to RF has no hazards or problems or risks of any kind -- it just works. For low-end engines, there is no loss or maintenance (even 4 RoC steam engines -- one DC engine running a pump, a few pipes, 4 steam engines, 4 netherrack, 4 flames, some shafts/junctions, and a dynamo)

Higher end, the RoC engines need fuel, and you'll either waste power or else need gears and automated lubricant.

Yes it does, but it needs some type of converter which means you can't simply hook up a gearbox or anything from RoC to a regular RF/EU machine just like that. It also doesn't translate any requirements to the machine like I wanted to accomplish in my original post.

Besides, this is really beside the point of what I was saying in my original post. I don't want to use RoC. It has it's own charm but not everyone will be able to use it (it's very complicated to some), I was talking about something completely different. Replacing the energy net, and only that, with a dedicated mod that has features similar to rf and eu, but some meaningful logic, drawbacks and challenges.

 

[keybounce]

The problem with asking your question is that it starts infringing on the philosophical: if we might as well just have powerless machines, why are we using the machines in the first place? Why are we building these houses in the first place? Why are we playing minecraft in the first place?

I do ask philosophical questions. I've even asked "why play minecraft?", although I phrased it more as "What are we playing?".

Some people liked the build game more. Some people liked the mine game more. Some people wanted the repetitious stuff done for them, some people felt that "there aren't enough hours to do everything as a single player, and I don't have helpers doing it for me". (At the time, I was asking about automation systems, the game playing itself, and what are we playing if the game plays itself. Since then, not only have I understood the lack of time / lack of people helping concepts, I've seen mods that try to give you NPC helpers to do the automation instead of machines -- either turning vanilla villagers into slaves, or Ancient Warfare that turns NPC's into food-powered automation.)

I no longer think of "Minecraft" as "one game"; I think of it as an engine for different people to play different games.

if we might as well just have powerless machines, why are we using the machines in the first place?

Why do you make enchanting tables or potion stands?

Why would you make something to kill mobs, collect drops, and sort them into chests for you?

Why would you make something that auto-farms pumpkins, wither skulls, and uses pistons to place blocks, create a trapped wither, and suffocate it automatically?

Why would you make a large, hidden railway of tracks, mob spawning/sorting/holding pens, randomly (at least, once a pressure plate detects the mobs) send an empty minecraft out to pick them up, run them around with random switches underneath the floor so that you only see their heads stick up, and then even automatically park the carts when the mob despawns?

Answer: Why not? Because you can? Because you came up with a different idea that no one else on YouTube has?

Some people like the game "Lets do silly things with mobs, and race carts around". Some people like the game, "How mean can we make a survivable trap?". Some people like the game "What can I build if resources are infinite", others like "What can I build if I have to earn resources"; those people find that "earn resources" only makes sense if the cost/effort for the resources makes some sense of balance. Vanilla offers one set of balance, mods give you different sorts of balanced building.

Lets say you wanted to use lots of sandstone for a desert-themed build in the desert. Vanilla, ... don't bother. But cobblestone generator to sand pulverizer to autocrafter to a chest of sandstone?

 

[Pyure]

I hope you didn't read my response, and particularly the word "problem", as a negative. Problems are fun.

And you nailed it with Minecraft=Engine. Its the primary reason I don't play anything besides minecraft anymore: the "game" keeps changing, faster than I can successfully get bored of it.

 

[Ecu]

I've read quite a few of the responses here (but perhaps not all), but one thing I see missing is: How are power systems more beneficial than just a "build X structure to progress" design? Simply put, I haven't seen a power system that accurately feels like a resource. Instead you need X power to do Y task and generate X power by constructing Z structure. In other words, if you remove power, but keep the structure...nothing changes.

All in all, I don't think any power systems really feel fun themselves, only the machines that use it. Even those, now days, are somewhat boring in a lot of cases. What do you use power for? Smelting, Grinding, etc. has been overdone to death and seems to just be a reason to get more resources, just to do what with? Make more power!

I think we need a new take on the technological mod concept, in general.

 

[jordsta95]

That's really not what I meant . I've played with all the mods that add their own energy systems, but what I meant is something different. Rotarycraft needs a block that converts these energy types (EDIT: RotaryCraft power to RF), I don't really want that.

I was rather talking about a complete replacement that still works for RF/EU. Doesn't even need to have realistic/number crunching. Just something that adds a little meaning, logic and thinking to how to plan your power system, instead of just, put block, put wire, there done forever.

Why do you need to convert? I don't understand your argument here... RotartCraft adds machines that ore-double, etc. The only thing it doesn't do is dimensions... which are NEEDED seeing as the overworld is infinite
But if you have reactorcraft, you can make a crap-tonne of RF by converting the tokomak's output, and converting it to RF... And then using that RF to power RFTools dimensions. And seeing as the tokomak takes a crap-tonne of resources to make, it makes it a lot more "balanced" for what it produces than a huge reactor from Big Reactors, especially as you have to make sure the tokomak is kept in working order

 

[KingTriaxx]

Trains. The answer is always trains. What's power for? To produce stuff to be hauled by trains. And to make the materials to make more trains. Thousands of blocks of train tracks.

 

[AtomicBlom]

I've read quite a few of the responses here (but perhaps not all), but one thing I see missing is: How are power systems more beneficial than just a "build X structure to progress" design? Simply put, I haven't seen a power system that accurately feels like a resource. Instead you need X power to do Y task and generate X power by constructing Z structure. In other words, if you remove power, but keep the structure...nothing changes.

All in all, I don't think any power systems really feel fun themselves, only the machines that use it. Even those, now days, are somewhat boring in a lot of cases. What do you use power for? Smelting, Grinding, etc. has been overdone to death and seems to just be a reason to get more resources, just to do what with? Make more power!

I think we need a new take on the technological mod concept, in general.

I don't disagree with you on principle Ecu, I'm all for seeing something unusual and different. Having said that, as some one who appreciates mods that are somewhat grounded in reality, my personal opinion is that if you remove the power, I would *expect* the structure to not work. If you're someone who can appreciate self-powered machines or some other mechanic (or something that doesn't even use machines perhaps), I'd be curious to see it, but I feel it would be pure sci-fi (which is a concept that I struggle to be original with).

One alternative is to make the power system itself part of the game, where balancing it is a challenge. This is the path I want to take with my stuff, but I do so knowing full well that not everybody appreciates that challenge.

When thinking about the question of "Why have power at all?" I would think is to create the impression of finite resources, which of course is often a broken concept where mod-interoperability is concerned. Tree farms with growth accelerators that feed into power systems that run the tree farm are kind of rediculous (though fun to build).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that people expectations are easier to meet when your implementation of an idea is grounded against what people expect. Fresh ideas that break the mould are to be applauded for originality, but they're so few and far between that it seems that this revolutionary idea is quite hard to formulate, balance or otherwise make fun in and of itself.

--Steven

 

[Ecu]

I don't disagree with you on principle Ecu, I'm all for seeing something unusual and different. Having said that, as some one who appreciates mods that are somewhat grounded in reality, my personal opinion is that if you remove the power, I would *expect* the structure to not work. If you're someone who can appreciate self-powered machines or some other mechanic (or something that doesn't even use machines perhaps), I'd be curious to see it, but I feel it would be pure sci-fi (which is a concept that I struggle to be original with).

One alternative is to make the power system itself part of the game, where balancing it is a challenge. This is the path I want to take with my stuff, but I do so knowing full well that not everybody appreciates that challenge.

When thinking about the question of "Why have power at all?" I would think is to create the impression of finite resources, which of course is often a broken concept where mod-interoperability is concerned. Tree farms with growth accelerators that feed into power systems that run the tree farm are kind of rediculous (though fun to build).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that people expectations are easier to meet when your implementation of an idea is grounded against what people expect. Fresh ideas that break the mould are to be applauded for originality, but they're so few and far between that it seems that this revolutionary idea is quite hard to formulate, balance or otherwise make fun in and of itself.

--Steven

Perhaps you misunderstood. I'm not thinking of having machines power themselves. More, that 'power' doesn't have numbers backing it beyond perhaps a strength value (which is not consumed by machines, only used to allow for tiers of power). Something more akin to what Better Than Wolves does with it's power. You'd still have generators, connections, and machines...however, instead of consuming power, they just need a certain tier and than they just work.

 

[OreCruncher]

Perhaps you misunderstood. I'm not thinking of having machines power themselves. More, that 'power' doesn't have numbers backing it beyond perhaps a strength value (which is not consumed by machines, only used to allow for tiers of power). Something more akin to what Better Than Wolves does with it's power. You'd still have generators, connections, and machines...however, instead of consuming power, they just need a certain tier and than they just work.

Further the example, a Tier 3 generator can put power into a Tier 3 or greater cable to power a Tier 3 or less machine. Just by virtue of the connections the machine will work. (This assumes Tier 1 is the lowest power capability.) It's an interesting idea, though it definitely needs to be ironed out. I should point out that such a system could help minimize potential lag issues on server because things work by virtue of connection, not based on all the power flow calculations between each conduit and power storage blocks.

 

[CreeperShift]

Why do you need to convert? I don't understand your argument here... RotartCraft adds machines that ore-double, etc. The only thing it doesn't do is dimensions... which are NEEDED seeing as the overworld is infinite
But if you have reactorcraft, you can make a crap-tonne of RF by converting the tokomak's output, and converting it to RF... And then using that RF to power RFTools dimensions. And seeing as the tokomak takes a crap-tonne of resources to make, it makes it a lot more "balanced" for what it produces than a huge reactor from Big Reactors, especially as you have to make sure the tokomak is kept in working order

Wow... again. NOT talking about using Rotarycraft at all..... Can we please stop this? I don't know who started associating my post with rotarycraft, but I don't mean anything with it.

 

[malicious_bloke]

Wow... again. NOT talking about using Rotarycraft at all..... Can we please stop this? I don't know who started associating my post with rotarycraft, but I don't mean anything with it.

What about Rotarycraft?

 

[jordsta95]

What about Rotarycraft?

That it is a mod with a power system that is complex, and actually has reason to using, compared to RF/EU?

Wow... again. NOT talking about using Rotarycraft at all..... Can we please stop this? I don't know who started associating my post with rotarycraft, but I don't mean anything with it.

You are asking about "what's the point of power when it is pretty useless (in terms of gating)" in essence, and Rotarycraft adds a power system which requires attention, and isn't just plug+play