Tech Mods: Missing the Point

  • The FTB Forum is now read-only, and is here as an archive. To participate in our community discussions, please join our Discord! https://ftb.team/discord

mcalpha

Active Member
Jul 29, 2019
249
-10
25
Minecraft 1,8 in that regard, might be just what we need. The massive increase in performance ...

May I direct you to the various 1.8 threads here that seem to disagree with that massive increase?[DOUBLEPOST=1410297485][/DOUBLEPOST]
the nerf to Mek's 3x+ is hardcoded and I can't change that

If you're referring to El. Separators, that's not true, change HydrogenEnergyDensity. Did it and works nicely in your pack :)
 

ThomazM

Phoenix Team Founder
Jun 11, 2013
1,308
2,514
473
The Immortal's Cemetery
This has been probably been said before, but honestly enough, I'm not in the right mood to read all the responses in the goal of finding the same opinion as mine; But I found extremely weird the fact that this post has been almost directly "aimed" at tech based mods. I didn't quite found the logic in saying that "exploration" and "building" are one of the only fun aspect of the game - of course, that can be your opinion, and we are all up to respect that, really.
But now, answer me: If building is one of the main fun aspects of the game (and with that, I agree), why isn't building a cool-looking, and better, functional factory, seen as a fun one well? Opinions, I guess.
I think I'm already derailing myself enough from the main focus of this post. What you stated is that, "tech mods are completely missing out the point of what they're trying to do". For starters, that phrase really startled me, it got me a bit confused; What exactly are tech mods trying to do? What are their common goal? Well, the thing is: That question itself is wrong! To understand this, we need to step back a bit, and realize that we're actually looking at mods, and not a full on game. So, removing some obvious examples out of the way, such as TerrafirmaCraft or Pixelmon (stand-alones), the majority of mods obey to stay within a certain pattern, which is nothing more, nothing less than the game's physics, gameplay, and for some of them, style. So, here's the exact reason that question was somewhat incorrect:

Minecraft has never been centered around a specific goal. It's about the way you play that make it unique.

Okay, one might say that the game's goal is to beat the Ender Dragon, and they would be somewhat correct, if the gameplay was linear, which most definitely is not. Derailing itself into incredible looking building, farms, crazy contraptions and whatnots. But there was never a goal. A specific spot in the game in which you dropped your mouse and said "I'm done, there's nothing more to do" (Then again, one might say that logically that point does exist and etc', but honestly, you get it). Tech mods aren't trying to set a specific goal, they are laying out tools for us to do whatever we want with.
Some tools help us build faster, but for that tool, we need a lot of resources! And if we want to maximize the production of our resources, we need to build machines that do that for us! But that machine requires loads of power! And to produce power we need some sort of power generators, and the list goes on; Keep in mind that this is only one line, there are way, way more! Not to mention that just in that specific line, there are unlimited variables, that can be changed from mod to mod...
Well, I think I stated myself pretty well here. To finish up, if any of your statements in your original post were straight up your opinion, that's fine and I'm completely sorry if I disrespected any of them; But also keep in mind that mainly everything in my post was also my opinion, so, not many actual facts in there.
Sigh', I hope this my point is at least decent and made you understand a slight different point of view. That's all.
 
Last edited:

Wagon153

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
3,148
-3
1
May I direct you to the various 1.8 threads here that seem to disagree with that massive increase?[DOUBLEPOST=1410297485][/DOUBLEPOST]

If you're referring to El. Separators, that's not true, change HydrogenEnergyDensity. Did it and works nicely in your pack :)
Funny, because they seem to be the minority.[DOUBLEPOST=1410361739][/DOUBLEPOST]
Wait, 1.6 million RF/t isnt enough to power RC machinery? o-O (never played RC so I am genuenly wondering).
Overclocking an extractor alone can take over 20krf/t.
 

mcalpha

Active Member
Jul 29, 2019
249
-10
25
Hmm, my last reactor (in 1.7.10, BR 0.4.0rc) was 8x6x6 and output about 15 kRF/t at powerProductionMultiplier=1.0. Scaling that up, 1-2 MRF/t are realistic if you consider that the core goes from 4x3x4 to 21x21x23.

(BTW, maxReactorHeight is 48 in the standard config, maxReactorSize is 32.)
 

Elessar

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
25
0
0
Though given those are pushing the limits of Big Reactors, whereas 1.5M RF/t is the equivalent of a single HP Reactorcraft turbine which can easily be achieved with a small to medium-ish reactor...
 

Skyqula

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
568
-1
0
I highly doubt that that output from a BR reactor is viable in survival without tweaking the turbine output config settings to absurdity. More realistically, the largest (about 25x25x25) BR reactors have power outputs of about 150-300 kRF/t.

Actually, turbines are a big hassle and an even bigger pain to build then a single big reactor. That screenshot is of a 31x31x48 reactor wich is just short of the maximum of 32x32x48. Default configs btw(so no increased power settings)! The final nail in a turbines coffing is that such a big reactor dailed down to only 1% opperation is still going over the 50B/t steam cap. (Or if it could output at max capacity: over 2500 turbine ==> 62.5 million RF/t, default configs... GG).

Having seen that huge thing you can make with your mod its realy not that far fetched to make such a big reactor. Heck, building it is stupidly easy with a ExU builders wand and some buildcraft floadgates. The hardest part is getting enough fuel to actually fill it (62744 ingots) and keeping up with the fuel cost of 1.4 ingots a second.

Though given those are pushing the limits of Big Reactors, whereas 1.5M RF/t is the equivalent of a single HP Reactorcraft turbine which can easily be achieved with a small to medium-ish reactor...

Its pushing the limits of passive reactors yeah. Its also waaaay beyond what the current max active reactors do. But! There are plans for alternating coolants with "dense steam" or something along those lines. If this reactor could be run actively cooled at max capacity then it could output 62.5 million RF/t. Unless I am mistaken, that is well beyond RC.
 

Arkandos

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
349
0
0
Actually, turbines are a big hassle and an even bigger pain to build then a single big reactor. That screenshot is of a 31x31x48 reactor wich is just short of the maximum of 32x32x48. Default configs btw(so no increased power settings)! The final nail in a turbines coffing is that such a big reactor dailed down to only 1% opperation is still going over the 50B/t steam cap. (Or if it could output at max capacity: over 2500 turbine ==> 62.5 million RF/t, default configs... GG).

Having seen that huge thing you can make with your mod its realy not that far fetched to make such a big reactor. Heck, building it is stupidly easy with a ExU builders wand and some buildcraft floadgates. The hardest part is getting enough fuel to actually fill it (62744 ingots) and keeping up with the fuel cost of 1.4 ingots a second.



Its pushing the limits of passive reactors yeah. Its also waaaay beyond what the current max active reactors do. But! There are plans for alternating coolants with "dense steam" or something along those lines. If this reactor could be run actively cooled at max capacity then it could output 62.5 million RF/t. Unless I am mistaken, that is well beyond RC.
Nothing is beyond Reactorcraft.
 

mcalpha

Active Member
Jul 29, 2019
249
-10
25
Having seen that huge thing you can make with your mod its realy not that far fetched to make such a big reactor. Heck, building it is stupidly easy with a ExU builders wand and some buildcraft floadgates. The hardest part is getting enough fuel to actually fill it (62744 ingots) and keeping up with the fuel cost of 1.4 ingots a second.

Hmm, with that kind of power you can run lots of laser drills to replenish all that yellorium... and give you back a bit of the iron you used to make it too! :)
 

keybounce

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
1,925
0
0
*shakes head* This reminds me of one job where we got so many emails like that, that we modified the website's workflow to force users to search the FAQ before they could email us. ...didn't help much...

Oh god. Mystcraft at one point had so many repeated "How do I" / "What is" / "This broke" / etc., that I actually made an account, "Vogon Captain", and posted a information/FAQ post at the top of every page.

It did NOT stop the same questions -- TOP OF THE PAGE, and people didn't even read.

I got an infraction for spamming.
 

Reika

RotaryCraft Dev
FTB Mod Dev
Sep 3, 2013
5,079
5,331
550
Toronto, Canada
sites.google.com
Oh god. Mystcraft at one point had so many repeated "How do I" / "What is" / "This broke" / etc., that I actually made an account, "Vogon Captain", and posted a information/FAQ post at the top of every page.

It did NOT stop the same questions -- TOP OF THE PAGE, and people didn't even read.

I got an infraction for spamming.
The number of people who come to me asking for a download link (because my old thread says you must request one, despite being clearly marked as obsolete)
Notice: This thread is out of date and is no longer checked regularly! Please visit my new thread instead!
http://www.minecraft...mp-reikas-mods/
is depressingly large.
 
  • Like
Reactions: 1SDAN

keybounce

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
1,925
0
0
I observed, long before looking and Fabrico, that Minecraft seems to lack reasonable ore veins.

I mean that it would seem desirable (in a game about building) to be able to find enough mineral resources in a location that (even with just vanilla Minecraft) it would be advantageous to actually build a railway to the mine to carry all the materials out.

Might give a different style of gameplay if one in every 10 chunks contained a large iron ore vein, 1 in 40 containing a gold vein, etc. Would be like a factorio spread of resources, but mostly all hidden underground. That would also give a use to the BC Mining well, take a sample in a chunk, if it brings up some ore, somewhere down there is a rich vein to dig up.

It sounds like you want Custom Ore Generation. The clouds distributions were designed to be "You'll have to make a railway to the cloud to mine it out"; the veins give you those "rare chance of a large ore vein", etc. (And: Large ore vein: An iron vein that doesn't twist can stretch 10-12 chunks, easily.)

Note that it was designed around old (125-164) biome layouts; it broke badly with the 17x world layout. The lack of snow zones, and deserts, combined with the huge abundance of forests, ruin the balance.

It just means it is something I have to consider every time I add a mod to my pack. Especially if it has world gen, since the only fix I'd be allowed to make would be removing said mod. ... Given the world gen in many of them adding and removing mods with lots of world gen would leave the players with nasty looking worlds and isn't a very good option.

This very concern -- worldgen changes -- led me to a policy back in 125, that I softened a little in 147. No mod worldgen blocks in the overworld. At all. Period. No exceptions. (In 1.2.5, I did not allow any mod blocks, or any mod worldgen in the overworld. I changed my view with things like Rogue-like dungeons, which only uses vanilla blocks, just arranged a little differently. The dungeons still work without the mod.)

If I cannot load the overworld into vanilla minecraft, without it being ruined, then the mod does not go in.

Now, I'll tweak the mod with other tools. For example, I can use Custom Ore Generation to replace beehives in the overworld with dirt. (Sadface; I can't replace some with air, some with water, or others with rock; but dirt works well enough in all those cases). The result is good enough -- some odd lighted, glowing dirt blocks, but those clean up like other lighting bugs.

Equally, nothing changes Twilight Forest, except for putting in COG ores. (Did I mention that I hate vanilla ore gen layout? I've used COG since I first ran into it in 142.). Everything else for mod generation is in mystcraft ages.

The benefits? Well, first and formost, if a mod dies, or does not update, or worse, updates but fails to transition from 164 to 17x ("sorry, I expect all users to start a new world every version"), then only the disposable ages are damaged. The world itself can stay just fine. The second benefit? Everything has a purpose. Twilight forest is it's own play style. Overworld has dungeons. Ages have all the mod things to find (plants/flowers/bees/etc). And the more "biome-dependent" those are, the better -- the more and different ages to explore.

===

The observation that Twilight Forest is balanced around vanilla, and is destroyed by most tech mods? Sure. I'm aware that when Direwolf's playthrough gets to the forest, he strips himself of the high-tech stuff. I'm planning on setting up my server for 1.7.10 with us starting in the forest, and not getting to the overworld until ... Well, I don't know. I figured out how to "Gate" mystcraft out to the point of very unlikely to get to it from the forest -- require an emerald in the book binder's recipe. (No villages, and no extreme hills ...).

Machines that ruin balance? Reika even mentions that RoC destroys the balance of TF. Well, yes and no. The one, and probably only, design philosophy of Reika's that I disagree with at this point involves the bedrock breaking ability. Minecraft has one "admin" block, that doubles as the world border block. It defines the bottom of the map, that you cannot go through. RoC treats this as another resource, a very hard to acquire resource. But there is no distinction between the "natural, mineable" bedrock at the bottom, and any "admin blocks" that are walling off other areas. Now, with the changes in 1.7.10 -- doubling the power needed for the bedrock breaker, removing the bedrock ability from the borer, eliminating the "chain water engines to power anything" feature, etc -- this might no longer be a concern. I'm not even sure if you can get the resources for jet fuel in the forest.

RoC's tech tree? People who want to replace bedrock with compressed cobble? Sure, trying to change any portion of the tech tree will give you all sorts of headaches. But what about individual blocks? Would disabling the extractor be a problem? Would disabling the borer be a problem? Would disabling the gravel gun be a problem? How about limiting the maximum power that can be put into the gravel gun?

I've done a small amount of "semi-creative" testing in 164, on 21-25. Give myself a large but fixed supply of iron, and as much of the rest as I need. Peaceful mode, survival, and try to build. RoC consumes iron so bleeping fast it's ... it's like the mod assumes that you have an automated supply of iron (borer), and can increase your supply from that (multiple machines to multiply ore). So it's not just gating by what you've managed to build, unless I'm way off, it's also gating by resource acquisition and assuming you've got ore automation. And as soon as a mod assumes massive ore automation, suddenly every other mod's ore costs become artificially low.

*THAT* is my big "balance point" concern.

Yes, there comes a time when you've basically "won" the game. Heck, even vanilla has beacons. Got the ability to do just about anything? Fine, here's an "almost creative" play mode for you now. No problem. And, the truth is, from what I've seen, the "what it takes to run the extractor quickly, what it takes to make a borer that produces lots of stuff for the extractor, what it takes to get the output from the borer, to the extractor, and to sorted storage", you're at "end game" by the time you get a large output from that stuff. It's the point where you don't have it all quite operating fast and smoothly, but are still on the 3 times, or a manually switched 5 times that requires either baby sitting or a smart redstone controller (hmm, I just realized I never played with a comparator and the extractor -- what does it detect/report out?)

And note that even without that "late end game", you still have the whole "I have to go now, instead of closing the game, I'll just AFK in my base until I get home" factor. More than anything, this is why I dislike automated mining / why I think it doesn't fit vanilla minecraft. You go from "earn X resource every Y units of play" to "Here, have infinity, or at least a double chestful." It's like a server with chunkloaders, only in rotarycraft's case, the borer will chunkload a full chunk itself -- and how hard is it to get all the processing into that one chunk?

Does it make sense to say "I no longer want to be concerned with mobs"? Bedrock armor, massively charged gravel gun, heck, the bedrock axe changes certain terrain features from scary/spooky to "beh, nada". Is that "late enough" that you have to "win the game" before you can get there? Can those things be pushed earlier or later in the tech tree to balance what a given server / player wants? Are they currently balanced based on what/how Reika wants to play, and does that balance match how other people want to play? (Reika has said he searched for a rainbow forest biome -- and designed them as non-mob, farm-animal rich -- because that was how he liked to play, without having to deal with mobs all that much because he did not like vanilla's combat system)

For example, if magic bees gained the ability to produce jet fuel, or magic crops gained a bedrock dust crop,

Well, maybe, maybe not. You have bees that produce lubricant, and require canola plants as their flower. I don't know jetfuel well enough, but it does require pretty much everything -- something in there could probably be made into a "well-gated flower". Perhaps using jetfuel to light fire-resistant netherwart on fire to make a new flower for the bees? Bedrock dust ... ok, it's harder. Anything that requires bedrock can be obtained just by digging a hole, there is no distinction between "player placed bedrock" and "natural bedrock". Unless maybe you had to sprinkle bedrock dust on a vanilla plant to make a bedrock plant ...

Point is, mod isolation may be one answer, and it may be the easiest answer; it might not be the only answer.
 

Celestialphoenix

Too Much Free Time
Nov 9, 2012
3,741
3,204
333
Tartarus.. I mean at work. Same thing really.
Would disabling the borer be a problem? Would disabling the gravel gun be a problem? How about limiting the maximum power that can be put into the gravel gun?

Even disabling items at the 'end' of a tech tree branch- something optional to play, that doesn't unlock any other functionality/items ect...
Well it may not seem to cause any problems, but I'm guessing you've heard of the slippery slope phrase?
This almost certainly applies here, and it's also a lot easier for Rekia to say 'no' to everything and give a list of changeables via his config.
 

Strikingwolf

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
3,709
-26
1
Even disabling items at the 'end' of a tech tree branch- something optional to play, that doesn't unlock any other functionality/items ect...
Well it may not seem to cause any problems, but I'm guessing you've heard of the slippery slope phrase?
This almost certainly applies here, and it's also a lot easier for Rekia to say 'no' to everything and give a list of changeables via his config.
Good post is good
 

Reika

RotaryCraft Dev
FTB Mod Dev
Sep 3, 2013
5,079
5,331
550
Toronto, Canada
sites.google.com
Even disabling items at the 'end' of a tech tree branch- something optional to play, that doesn't unlock any other functionality/items ect...
Well it may not seem to cause any problems, but I'm guessing you've heard of the slippery slope phrase?
This almost certainly applies here, and it's also a lot easier for Rekia to say 'no' to everything and give a list of changeables via his config.
This is one of my main reasons, combined with the fact that no matter what I say is a good idea to disable and what not, nobody listens and I end up getting harassed over the mistakes of morons.
 

RavynousHunter

New Member
Jul 29, 2019
2,784
-3
1
Even disabling items at the 'end' of a tech tree branch- something optional to play, that doesn't unlock any other functionality/items ect...
Well it may not seem to cause any problems, but I'm guessing you've heard of the slippery slope phrase?
This almost certainly applies here, and it's also a lot easier for Rekia to say 'no' to everything and give a list of changeables via his config.

...You literally just invoked a known logical fallacy, by freaking name. You realize that, right?