Tech Mods: Missing the Point

mDiyo

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Hello there, mDiyo here. I'd like to share something with all of you that I could only put into words recently.

I have rarely played with tech mods in Minecraft. They've either been too out of place in the world or have so little documentation that it takes an outside source of information - usually a wiki - to get anywhere. I thought that it just wasn't my style or that there was some sort of gameplay I was missing. "They just aren't for me", things like that.

Recently I stumbled across Factorio. For those who don't know what it is, Factorio is a game about building a factory. You spend the entire game building up your base so that you can research technology to make your factory better. This sounds incredibly droll. In practice, the technology serves as a meter for your progression. The factory becomes ever more complex as you need more machines to craft more parts and you'll need more raw resources to keep up with it. The whole thing gets bulky and you're going to have problems where you need to build something right in the space of something else, and you'll tear down the entire thing just to iron it out.

The act of building a factory is both a problem and a solution wrapped up in a bit of gameplay. You're given new things to build as you research, and they need to be put somewhere. The feeling of accomplishment when crafters start spitting out circuits made of 10 different materials and parts made from more materials is astounding. It unlocks a whole new line of things you can do, and yet it's only one step in the process.

There is a flow, there is a process, and there is a goal. This is the one thing Minecraft's tech mods lack. They're either haphazardly thrown together or rely on some other mod that is designed around working by itself, which is usually a collection of random toys to play with. "Have a sandbox of things" ends up as the goal. There's rarely any progression outside of awkardly forced crafting processes and any sense of flow is thrown out when you have three ways to pipe items around on top of vanilla hoppers and water channels.

Minecraft is supposed to be a creative game about rearranging blocks and making large, impressive builds, or about exploring the world to see what's out there. The tendency of tech mods to compress things down into a single machine block coupled with a cable system completely belies the way the game is supposed to play. Most of them tie you down to a single point that has the player dumping resources into ever more expensive blocks without actually giving any creative leeway. For a creative game, tech mods are remarkably uncreative.

To sum everything up: Minecraft's tech mods completely miss the point of what they're trying to do.

A notable exception goes out to older versions of Forestry. While it does still need a wiki, it has all of the gameplay elements that makes for a good game. Another mention goes to Mekanism for the same reason.
 

Geo Terra

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I agree on this completely. I was think about this a while ago (about a year ago, I believe) and was contemplating creating a mod where you'd would have to "research" technology in order to progress further down the path to continually improve what systems you have available to you. However, I lacked the modding expertise to start and I lost the stupid notes due a massive clean up of my physical & virtual files. If I'm remembering correctly, I planned it to use a research system somewhat similar to Thaumcraft but it would also include in-world experimentation to discover how things would "work" (which would hopefully be unique between worlds so people couldn't cheat and copy from others) and would use an age-based progression to the technology that would be a near direct copy of BetterThanWolves' tech tree progression, meanwhile pulling machinery from both reality and other mods into a more-or-less coherent system. I also planned to pull inspiration from TiCon and TerraFirmaCraft as well.

Suffice to say, it was a very ambitious project and was very much so beyond my experience, so it may have been for the best that I lost access to the notes, but if I still had them I would definitely hand them off to devs that could pull it off. Ah well...
 
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Golrith

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I've played Factorio too. Great game. Start simple, and eventually you'll get something very insane.

One big difference though that does affect gameplay is that you need a ton of resources in Factorio. It's recipes are something like x10-100 of minecrafts resources. In modded MC terms, it's the contents of what a max size quarry digs up to make a redstone furnace. As a result, you have a lot of ore processing, transport belts and chests filled with thousands of resources, and you are constantly looking for more. But there's so much to build from just the basic resources of Coal, Copper, Iron, Stone and Wood.

A tech/industrial mod should be a sprawling affair to my mind.

I think the biggest issue is that the crafting recipes are not really technical. Arrange these ingots in a certain pattern, get this high tech thing. Really those ingots should be shaped into components, and it's these components are what make up the machine, but it's a fine line between pointless grind and keeping things interesting. IC2 Exp does this a bit but it's close to the edge of "grind".

That's something I'm partially addressing myself in my own pack, most machines I'm making require circuit boards, and there are a number of different ways of different efficiencies of making those circuits. So one requirement is to get a system in place for circuit board manufacture.
 

bochen415

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In practice, the technology serves as a meter for your progression. The factory becomes ever more complex as you need more machines to craft more parts and you'll need more raw resources to keep up with it. The whole thing gets bulky and you're going to have problems where you need to build something right in the space of something else, and you'll tear down the entire thing just to iron it out.

I'm an engineer and the above quote is the only thing keeping me in modded Minecraft. I love the situation when I need to rebuild half of my base because there's no place for a single machine. The final look of my base/factory/power system is not my goal. The goal is *making* the plan and *building* the factory and making another plan for a larger factory in the process. This is what drives Me. When the process is finished this all goes away and I'm bored to death with walking around 2000 blocks just to see a new biome.

TL;DR I personally love tech packs made the way they are now.

Edit: The *creative* and the *reality* aspect is differently understood by mod devs but one hit the jackpot with both - a big Thank You - AlgorithmX2
 
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SilverRam

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I allways liked multiblock-machines over single-block machines. I never played Factorio, and might give it a go, but I have played with Mekanism and GT. The last mod add a bit of a challenge to make all the machines and made IC2 a bit more interesting. And it has the awesome fusionreactor.
Rorax is working on a multiblock mod named steam and steel which looks interesting. However its in the early steps of development, but in her videos she mentions that she is a big fan of multiblock-machines. I hope mod-devs change their direction from single-block systems to multi-block systems.

The tech-tree idea is also an idea I like. What I dont like is an obsolite item not having function in later game. There should be a way to upgrade the obsolite item or block. As for a multiblock it can be adding a cpu or adding more blocks on the mulitblocks. Kinda like TC where you can add more blcks to get more drains or more items in your smeltery.
 

WhatGravitas

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I think a big problem with many tech mods is the lack of actual new abilities in the game. One huge offender is, for example, ore processing: it doesn't change the game, it just gives you more stuff you essentially already have. It's just a time saver nothing more.

Now, time savers are cool, but there needs to be a reason to save time. In an open sandbox game, time isn't exactly the rarest resource.

A lot more interesting are things that introduce genuinely new mechanics. A good example was actually RedPower2: block breakers, frames, computers. All of them unlocked things you couldn't do before instead of just being better versions of what you already have. Thermal Expansion actually isn't too bad in that regard, terrain smashers, autonomous activators and (to some extent) aqueous accumulators are really useful blocks that don't do much on their own but are tools enabling you to build cool sprawling machines.
 

buggirlexpres

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I have rarely played with tech mods in Minecraft. They've either been too out of place in the world or have so little documentation that it takes an outside source of information - usually a wiki - to get anywhere. I thought that it just wasn't my style or that there was some sort of gameplay I was missing. "They just aren't for me", things like that.
And you're saying magic mods don't? Sure, quite a few document their ideas in-game, but is it a bad thing that they don't? One of the charms of when I first played vanilla Minecraft was discovering things. There were no guides, only an open world. You had to figure out these things yourself. That's why I liked the early versions of Buildcraft and IndustrialCraft - you could build them, and use them, without ever having to go to a wiki or outside source. Maybe some mods would be better off without an in-game guide, playing Minecraft like how it was originally played.

There is a flow, there is a process, and there is a goal. This is the one thing Minecraft's tech mods lack. They're either haphazardly thrown together or rely on some other mod that is designed around working by itself, which is usually a collection of random toys to play with. "Have a sandbox of things" ends up as the goal. There's rarely any progression outside of awkardly forced crafting processes and any sense of flow is thrown out when you have three ways to pipe items around on top of vanilla hoppers and water channels.
Minecraft lacked a goal for a very long time, and it was still an incredibly popular game. But there is a goal, of sorts. To build up everything to it's most powerful, highest tier. And if that isn't a goal, then your argument against tech mods should apply to almost all mods in general. Magic mods are equally guilty of not having a goal. What is the point of Blood Magic? Upgrade to the highest tier Altar. Botania? Get the strongest mana production and consumption going. Ars Magica? Get the highest tier of spell power, augmented.

Just because it doesn't have a goal does not mean that it is bad. Just because it's not documented in-game does not mean that it is bad. Minecraft is a sandbox game, it should allow it's players to set their own goal, and uncover their own things.
 

Omicron

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Hello there, mDiyo here. I'd like to share something with all of you that I could only put into words recently.

I have rarely played with tech mods in Minecraft. They've either been too out of place in the world or have so little documentation that it takes an outside source of information - usually a wiki - to get anywhere. I thought that it just wasn't my style or that there was some sort of gameplay I was missing. "They just aren't for me", things like that.

Recently I stumbled across Factorio. For those who don't know what it is, Factorio is a game about building a factory. You spend the entire game building up your base so that you can research technology to make your factory better. This sounds incredibly droll. In practice, the technology serves as a meter for your progression. The factory becomes ever more complex as you need more machines to craft more parts and you'll need more raw resources to keep up with it. The whole thing gets bulky and you're going to have problems where you need to build something right in the space of something else, and you'll tear down the entire thing just to iron it out.

The act of building a factory is both a problem and a solution wrapped up in a bit of gameplay. You're given new things to build as you research, and they need to be put somewhere. The feeling of accomplishment when crafters start spitting out circuits made of 10 different materials and parts made from more materials is astounding. It unlocks a whole new line of things you can do, and yet it's only one step in the process.

There is a flow, there is a process, and there is a goal. This is the one thing Minecraft's tech mods lack. They're either haphazardly thrown together or rely on some other mod that is designed around working by itself, which is usually a collection of random toys to play with. "Have a sandbox of things" ends up as the goal. There's rarely any progression outside of awkardly forced crafting processes and any sense of flow is thrown out when you have three ways to pipe items around on top of vanilla hoppers and water channels.

Minecraft is supposed to be a creative game about rearranging blocks and making large, impressive builds, or about exploring the world to see what's out there. The tendency of tech mods to compress things down into a single machine block coupled with a cable system completely belies the way the game is supposed to play. Most of them tie you down to a single point that has the player dumping resources into ever more expensive blocks without actually giving any creative leeway. For a creative game, tech mods are remarkably uncreative.

To sum everything up: Minecraft's tech mods completely miss the point of what they're trying to do.

A notable exception goes out to older versions of Forestry. While it does still need a wiki, it has all of the gameplay elements that makes for a good game. Another mention goes to Mekanism for the same reason.

I think that the issue here is partly that many modders are game designers only by hobby, if at all, and the fact that you can't really compare Minecraft and Factorio in the first place.

I mean, on the surface there's a fairly similar feel about tech modded Minecraft and Factorio, in the sense that you're building processing lines. It's just that in one game you do it in first person view while in another from bird's eye view. But conceptually they're very different games. Factorio has an extremely streamlined progression, whith every detail modeled, down to the items traveling along the conveyor belts. Minecraft... not so much.

Minecraft by itself is not progression-centric at all. Mojang kind of shoehorned the Ender Dragon in there as a boss to beat, but that was mostly because it's harder to sell a game that has no end than it is to simply invent an ending. If you ignore the Ender Dragon's existance, Minecraft is surprisingly horizontal. Yes, you can head out to explore and get better materials to make better armor and better gear... but really, how long does it take an experienced player to kit himself out in diamond tools? About five to ten minutes, give or take, to start digging the tunnel at y<16 with an iron pick in hand, plus whatever time the random number generator decrees must pass until actually encountering a vein. And once you find it, you're done. The entire "progression" of vanilla Minecraft is a four-step process: punch a tree, collect cobblestone, collect iron ore, collect diamonds. Done. In addition to that, Minecraft is somewhat abstract. You get the act of punching a tree block by block as a stand-in for the realworld act of felling a tree, and you carry around hundreds of cubic meters of solid rock as if it was nothing. Things are not modeled down to the detail level in Minecraft.

That's not me complaining, by the way; that's me pointing out how it is. Minecraft is not a progression-centric game, and if you're after a progression-centric game, then Minecraft is not the right game to look at. The point is not to progress, the point is to explore and build. Why explore, why build? Because <set your own goal here>.

Enter tech mods. Technology by definition is inextricably linked to research and advancement in videogames. Every game we've ever played - from shoot-em-ups that have you upgrade weapons, over games like Civilization with its massive tech trees, to MOBAs that make you work all match long for that top tier Mithril Spork Of +5 Noobstomping, the rule is the same: you want the shiny toy? Follow this specific progression path. Naturally, tech mods will do the same. It's how games are supposed to be, after all! What point is technology without a tech tree?

And all of a sudden, it feels awkward: you have a dissonance between the base game and the mod attempting to sit on it. This isn't an unsolvable issue, but it's quite difficult. And the point is: you can't just add an arbitrary progression element to Minecraft, because Minecraft isn't built to be progression-centric. You need to invest a whole lot more effort into your mod - aside from doing your own thing, you also need to supplement those areas of the base game that are not useful for your redirection of the game concept. And it gets worse: if you want your mod to coexist with other tech mods, well, you now have a world where everyone is sort of trying to weld their own progression system to the not-progression-centric base game. Some will fail to do it properly, some will do it properly but in a way that only works for them but not others, and some will try to piggyback on someone else's implementation to get around this, and so on. It's really difficult to really nail down how you want your mod to work in the same space as others while at the same time changing up the entire gameplay concept, and this is where it becomes extremely apparent when someone has only little game design experience.

You tout classic Forestry as one of the mods that "got it right"; I find that choice extremely interesting (and perhaps telling), because classic Forestry wasn't progression-centric either. It was completely horizontal - if you had the required resources, which were acquired the same way and quantities as vanilla ones, you could build any machine you wanted, in any order you wanted. Of course some machines only worked when paired with others, but that's not a vertical progression. Also, the entire point of Forestry was vanilla automation. Not the automation of its own content - no, the automation of the base game. As such, classic Forestry didn't suffer from this game direction dissonance with vanilla Minecraft. Only later, with bee and tree breeding, did Forestry get vertical progression elements.

So why are tech mods popular anyway, despite this dissonance they almost invariably carry? In my opinion it's because the freeform building aspect of vanially Minecraft attracts people who enjoy designing systems, and tech mods scratch that itch in ways the base game cannot. And well, perhaps there's also a craving for progression-centric gameplay that they attempt to fulfill. If you play a progression-lass game for long enough, maybe you start to wish for progression. And when the various mods fail to be very good at supplying that - perhaps due to the dissonance with the base game, due to lacking experience in game design, or due to difficulties operating together with other mods - then people start looking at other games. Like Factorio.

Factorio is different from Minecraft. It takes vertical progression-centric free-form building and turns it up to eleven. It scratches exactly that itch that Minecraft tech mods may attempt but not be able to, due to the base game's very nature. As such, Factorio is a great game for anyone who loves Minecraft tech mods... or is fed up by them. But it's best to keep in mind that Factorio has a huge leg up on these mods, because it is built from the ground up as what it is, with no concessions made anywhere.
 
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epidemia78

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Mdiyo, I partially agree with you. Back when I first started adding mods to my game, I hated industrialcraft, forestry and railcraft because they seemed so...obtuse and unfocused. I still think IC2 is totally not worth the effort, practically useless and definitely ugly. But on the other hand, I didnt see how I would gain anything by depriving myself of them because theres at least one cool thing in each. The fact that tech mods (aside from IC2) can all work together and share a common power source was a big selling point. Once I finally decided to just go ahead and throw all of the popular tech mods into my pack and start playing, I came to appreciate them much more.

They completely changed minecraft into something else. As much as it bugs me sometimes that lots of people dont seem to even try to build nice looking things and instead focus on tech, I cant really fault them for it because playing with machines, pipes and wires is a very unique experience that you just cant get anywhere else.

On the other hand, any mod that has horrendous textures and adds zero building blocks seems misguided to me. Ive always noticed a lack of creativity on the part of certain tech mod authors. I wont name names. Its all about function, no emphasis on form. Theres plenty of great texture artists out there who cant do code. I wish the two would collaborate from time to time so the mods dont turn out looking so plain and grey. And stop recoloring vanilla textures. Those textures were never good to begin with.
 
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Democretes

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You do have an excellent point mDiyo, and it would be awesome if tech mods worked that way. There's a major difference between Factorio and Minecraft, and that's the resources available, particularly space. In Factorio, you're dealing with strictly 2D space. You can "tunnel" under certain objects with some conveyor's, but otherwise is all 2d. Minecraft on the other hand has 3D space, obviously. Space isn't an issue, and nothing "bad" is going to happen if you have a massive base. Even if all machines were 3x3x3 cubes, or even larger, finding the space to fit all these machines would be a trivial matter.

Honestly, the closest thing to what your describing is GregTech, but that gets rather grindy after a while. It follows the space idea, complexity, and a long streamlined progression. Minecraft just isn't meant for this. It's just not the style of the game due to how "horizontal" the progression is.
 

CaptPanda

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I'm not quite sure on how to interpret your post, what your trying to establish. However, if I do understand you correctly, try Galacticraft.

Yeah, I know I'm trying to preach tech mods, however it does have a pretty straightforward goal of 'Mun or bust'. It has progression that isn't sitting on a metric-ton of resources, it's definitely an exploration mod at heart. Dunno if there's anything else I'd recommend, honestly that's the only mod I can think of that would suit your needs.
 

midi_sec

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Different mods have different goals and accomplish them in different ways and with various degrees of success. There is no "the" point to modding.
True, but I've always said that modding isn't all that different from DM'ing dungeons and dragons, besides the whole programming java and all that. It's tough to create a balanced game that will entice people to come back week after week.

That said, I'm going to have to agree with mDiyo and say that a lot of modders simply do not get it. Game design almost feels like an afterthought, and it's only for the reason that mDiyo stated; that for the most part they are game designers only as a hobby. Coding can be learned in a relatively short period of time, all of the rest can only come with experience.

fwiw, I enjoy your mods.
 

Azzanine

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I'm starting to think you haven't played with RotaryCraft yet.
Pretty much this, I was going to dispute it a bit but RoC really does funnel you in to it's own content quite well at the chagrin of the free-form players style.
Of course you kind of need to do a lot of external research to make it work, RoC has it's manual but at least for me I didn't quite find it all that illuminating it was however a good starting point.
 
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ChJees

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Related to this topic i got a vision of future Technological mods utilizing a new brand of multiblock where each block you add to it fulfills a function in the processing of a material.

I.e to make a macerator\pulverizer you need a few blocks making it possible; A buffer holding in the items, for example a vanilla hopper, a thresher block that gets it power from a gear axle, axle motor either powered from a electric grid or portable stirling generator & a collector mechanism.
newera_multiblock.png

I think this way is way more engaging than using "magic blocks" and allows for fancier looking factories where there is a reason to build in a specific way.

In a future mod i will most likely implement the concept of freeform multiblock structures. But for now i need to pay attention to my fairies :D.
 
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Golrith

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True, but your sketch can already be done already. Just replace the Axel Thresher with a Pulverizer, and the Electric Motor with a Dynamo.
When trying to break down a magic block into components, you tend to find the result is the same.

But, your idea will be visually more impressive.
 

ChJees

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True, but your sketch can already be done already. Just replace the Axel Thresher with a Pulverizer, and the Electric Motor with a Dynamo.
When trying to break down a magic block into components, you tend to find the result is the same.

But, your idea will be visually more impressive.
Not really a original idea, but "rule of cool" for the win ;),