Solid Boilers after 1.5.1. Wood source?

[PonyKuu]

Okay, perhaps I'm not making myself clear...

She was complaining because it couldn't fully furnish THREE 36HP boilers. The fact that she was apparently able to run TWO off of the same SC farm means there was a serious imbalance in the amount of wood the tree farm was delivering.

Honestly, I would just plain remove wood and wooden planks as an option for solid boilers completely. Back in the day, you couldn't get the heat you needed for a boiler out of wood. You needed good coal or coal coke. Not charcoal, and certainly not wood. They just didn't get it hot enough.

I'm a guy, not a girl ^_^'

Anyways, removing renewable fules from solid fuel list makes solid boiler useless. And I think I'll be able to run 5 boilers by 2 carts. But it is a pretty big area - tracks in E-shape about 20x16 blocks in size for each cart

 

[DoctorOr]

One cart will barely keep up with a 36 HP boiler.

You know, blatant falsehoods that anybody who has ever used a steve cart and a boiler know is complete BS don't help your case. What did you put the cart in a tiny little circle that only planted 5 trees?

 

[Malkuth]

I think whats been mentioned before by someothers. All this nerf does is bring people back to the simple nether lava powered stuff... Not sure how many people actually like hard.. But I don't want to spend days tweaking and getting a power source to run or keep running.. Once its up I have other things I want to do... The whole point of automation in FTB is to build it and forget it and move onto the next project... If I have to babysit 800 things because someone thinks its OP.. Then when do I have time to do other things.. You don't..

But it seems to me that even though it is a nerf.. And All I have to do is build another farm to compensate... The whole idea of adding yet another baby sit and repair thing to the game is getting a little silly.. IE repair the Cutters....

Pretty soon where going to need a mod.... To baby sit the mods.. Like Hire a work force to do the labor at your base... LOL.

It sounds horrible... But right now the amount of wood and saplings my Steves Farm creates is pretty insane.. So maybe it did need a nerf.. But Who knows... Still on the fence about it... I don't like the repair asset of the update though.

 

[Malkuth]

"Serious imbalance" relative to what? I can't run two boilers off one cart. These arbitrary assessments of what should or should not be possible are getting tiresome. For a fraction of the time, space, and planning I can pull the same amount of energy out of a self sustained lava system, so how is SC out of whack? I went the SC/boiler route for something different that seemed a little more interesting. So SC eats a pointless nerf. Depending on the cost of the Galgadorian cutter, the dev might as well just pull the option. No point implementing a system nobody is going to use.

Thats what I did Enigmius... Lava is easy.. The steves cart the boilers and everything took me a few days of work to get running... I don't get it either.. And I was new to both boilers and steves carts this play session... (used lava last time) The amount of time I spent on building the infstructure to make Boilers and the resources to fuel them (the tanks, all the time saving up... Coverting wood to charcoal...) I don't get it... The amount of time spent is well worth the investment I placed into the whole system for my first time... Yes If I do it again it will be easier (still not as easy as lava) but thats the whole point of FTB... Its not hard the second time.. The first time is a lot of trial and error.

But whatever let them have there nerf... They will cry about lava next time again. Cause god forbid... What people do in there own little world that has nothing to do with someone eles is a big problem for some people..

Its called tyranny...

 

[Enigmius1]

You know, blatant falsehoods that anybody who has ever used a steve cart and a boiler know is complete BS don't help your case. What did you put the cart in a tiny little circle that only planted 5 trees?

No, I've got quite a large number of trees growing. The cart fills up as fast as a cart can fill up, drops off the goods at a cargo manager and continues on. The saplings get sorted out for biomass, the logs go through sawmills. The planks and charcoal (from sawdust) go to a vanilla chest in front of the first boiler. When that's full, planks and charcoal continue down the line to a second vanilla chest in front of a second boiler. By the time another batch comes in, the first boiler is around 250 degrees and the second is usually below 100. So if I take the second boiler out and retune the delivery for the first 36 HP boiler, it would most likely cap out, but there's absolutely no way I'd get two boilers capped from one cart.[DOUBLEPOST=1366920315][/DOUBLEPOST]

Thats what I did Enigmius... Lava is easy.. The steves cart the boilers and everything took me a few days of work to get running... I don't get it either.. And I was new to both boilers and steves carts this play session... (used lava last time) The amount of time I spent on building the infstructure to make Boilers and the resources to fuel them (the tanks, all the time saving up... Coverting wood to charcoal...) I don't get it... The amount of time spent is well worth the investment I placed into the whole system for my first time... Yes If I do it again it will be easier (still not as easy as lava) but thats the whole point of FTB... Its not hard the second time.. The first time is a lot of trial and error.

But whatever let them have there nerf... They will cry about lava next time again. Cause god forbid... What people do in there own little world that has nothing to do with someone eles is a big problem for some people..

Its called tyranny...

I just don't like the trend, and I don't like to see mod devs buckle to the pressure created by the trend. 90% of the people crying about balance haven't got the first goddam clue what balance is all about but if the only people talking are the ones who don't know wtf they're talking about, we get stuff like this and it's unfortunate. The one good thing in this is that we got plenty of notice so I can start planning and executing the transition away from Steve's Carts before the nerf impacts me.

 

[PonyKuu]

No, I've got quite a large number of trees growing. The cart fills up as fast as a cart can fill up, drops off the goods at a cargo manager and continues on. The saplings get sorted out for biomass, the logs go through sawmills. The planks and charcoal (from sawdust) go to a vanilla chest in front of the first boiler. When that's full, planks and charcoal continue down the line to a second vanilla chest in front of a second boiler. By the time another batch comes in, the first boiler is around 250 degrees and the second is usually below 100. So if I take the second boiler out and retune the delivery for the first 36 HP boiler, it would most likely cap out, but there's absolutely no way I'd get two boilers capped from one cart.

You have to heat up your boiler first, so it will run at max efficiency. At 250 degrees it consumes fuel ~7 times faster.

 

[Revemohl]

All this talk about no energy sources being as good as lava even though they should be competing with it makes me feel like the idea for a huge, enormous, gigantic nerf to lava-based energy sources is going to hit every mod maker in the world's head at the same time, they will delete every version of their mods other than the one with that nerflied applied to it, then somehow force everyone to update their mods and invalidate all of their ways to roll back.

 

[KirinDave]

I just don't like the trend, and I don't like to see mod devs buckle to the pressure created by the trend. 90% of the people crying about balance haven't got the first goddam clue what balance is all about but if the only people talking are the ones who don't know wtf they're talking about, we get stuff like this and it's unfortunate. The one good thing in this is that we got plenty of notice so I can start planning and executing the transition away from Steve's Carts before the nerf impacts me.

I agree that it is curious. And I agree that some modmakers have outright weird concepts of game balance (e.g., SirSengir's new farms, CJ's boiler tweaks).

But to me, all this consternation is delicious to watch.[DOUBLEPOST=1366921513][/DOUBLEPOST]

All this talk about no energy sources being as good as lava even though they should be competing with it makes me feel like the idea for a huge, enormous, gigantic nerf to lava-based energy sources is going to hit every mod maker in the world's head at the same time, they will delete every version of their mods other than the one with that nerflied applied to it, then somehow force everyone to update their mods and invalidate all of their ways to roll back.

Yeah, good luck with that. IC2 proooobably isn't changing anytime soon and so long as that exists, Lava is viable. That said, Lava's tradeoff is that it's easy to set up, but needs perpetual maintenance. I personally think that Lava as it stands is much less work than getting like, a 1.5.1 forestry genetically-engineered-tree farm set up and perpetually running.

 

[Enigmius1]

You have to heat up your boiler first, so it will run at max efficiency. At 250 degrees it consumes fuel ~7 times faster.

I had done that with the first boiler but it didn't stay at 1k degrees. Like I say, if I pulled the second boiler out of the distribution system and just gave all of the fuel to the first one I'm sure it could stay capped indefinitely, but I can't run two 1k degree 36HP boilers off one cart and that was my point. We're talking about a system that can provide enough solid fuel for one 36HP solid boiler with a bit of fuel left over and somehow that's seen as 'OP' in the eyes of some. And the solution is to nerf logging carts to make them either non-viable as a means of supplying boilers relative to alternatives, or so expensive as to be completely unattractive. It appears to be going from fine for most and OP for some to pointless for everyone, and that's a sign of both an ignorant vocal minority and a novice developer over-reacting.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I agree that it is curious. And I agree that some modmakers have outright weird concepts of game balance (e.g., SirSengir's new farms, CJ's boiler tweaks).

But to me, all this consternation is delicious to watch.

I like the multiblocks. Sure, it's a steep material investment now, but it also has a decent payout. Not the actual basic tree farm itself, but things like the Orchard.Seed oil? Chestnut tree orchard. Done. Produces more seed oil than any golem farm (due to limitations on the range of the brainy straw golems) off of a single tree. Apple Orchard provides plenty of apples, although you'll want a significantly sized one to keep up with a fermenter.

Heck, if you use IC2, the Rubber Orchard would be insanely useful. It taps the trees properly so it doesn't wear them out, and does so consistently. Even a minimum-size farm would have you swimming (literally, if you use BC pipes) in rubber.

Quite frankly, part of my problem with a SC tree farm is all the stacks and stacks of wood that I'll never need. So tree breeding up a good species for a very sappy sapling will be a great way to minimize the clutter and maximize the biomass production.

And it isn't *that* hard to do tree breeding. UNlike Bee Breeding, you can spend a bit of bronze to get a whole load of saplings when you get a new tree species, which will be more than enough to get you to the next step for the trees you want. You don't really *need* any bee breeding, regular forest/meadows bees will suffice quite nicely for tree breeding, however if you're wanting something faster, then either Industrious or Rural Bees will help. Rural is just Diligent + Meadows in a Plains biome. Either way, you don't have *too* much bee breeding to undergo to significantly speed things up. But hey, it's not like you can't have it going while you are down in your branch mine or off in a different dimension (assuming chunkloaded).

 

[KirinDave]

I like the multiblocks. Sure, it's a steep material investment now, but it also has a decent payout. Not the actual basic tree farm itself, but things like the Orchard.Seed oil? Chestnut tree orchard. Done. Produces more seed oil than any golem farm (due to limitations on the range of the brainy straw golems) off of a single tree. Apple Orchard provides plenty of apples, although you'll want a significantly sized one to keep up with a fermenter.

Yeah but compared to everything else in the pack, they're awkward, slow, and stupid, and require huge sums of dirt. It's weird that forestry is the LEAST environment friendly farm.

Quite frankly, part of my problem with a SC tree farm is all the stacks and stacks of wood that I'll never need. So tree breeding up a good species for a very sappy sapling will be a great way to minimize the clutter and maximize the biomass production.

Personally, I think the tree breeding mechanics are dumb and boring and bad gameplay. I probably won't ever do it. It's also biome-dependent in an even worse way that bees, which menas you can get RNG screwed really badly.

It's funny how the rest of Forestry is compared to how bad the farms are.

 

[Mash]

I find it weird that forestry multifarms require fertilizer and dirt.

In what universe do I have to use fertilizer on a sapling to get it to grow, and then have to replace the mysteriously-corrupted block of dirt that it grew on top of?

 

[Bigglesworth]

Pony tony pony? Pony, pony. Pony!~ Pony pony...

PONY 2013



Horse.[DOUBLEPOST=1366924547][/DOUBLEPOST]

Yeah, but do they grow that fast? Actually, config changes is the thing I don't like to do. Not because I cannot into Notepad++, but if modder decided that parameter should have a certain value, why should I change it? Isn't it some sort of "cheating"?

Because they are the ones that put the config in. They wanted it to be configurable.

But does that mean one is a dirty dirty cheater by doing so? Maybe.


Posted on my Ponyphone

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yeah but compared to everything else in the pack, they're awkward, slow, and stupid, and require huge sums of dirt. It's weird that forestry is the LEAST environment friendly farm.

Huge sums of dirt? Ummm.... not really. Orchards don't eat up dirt. Managed tree farms do, but that's a whole 'nother kettle of fish.

Personally, I think the tree breeding mechanics are dumb and boring and bad gameplay. I probably won't ever do it. It's also biome-dependent in an even worse way that bees, which menas you can get RNG screwed really badly.

And I will have to say that it is far more simple and elegant than bee breeding.

It's funny how the rest of Forestry is compared to how bad the farms are.

It's funny how more people seem to say that without even trying it.

I find it weird that forestry multifarms require fertilizer and dirt.

In what universe do I have to use fertilizer on a sapling to get it to grow, and then have to replace the mysteriously-corrupted block of dirt that it grew on top of?

In what universe do I get infinite water by having a couple of buckets worth of water in a three meter trough? In what universe does cobblestone hang mid-air without any anchor point?

And honestly? It's called 'soil degradation'. Don't use fertilizer? Crop yields drop. Significantly. This includes trees. It was the reason crop rotation system revolutionized farming.

In an actual tree farm, you cut down the trees when they mature, you plow up the dirt, re-fertilize it, then replant. So seems fairly realistic to me.

 

[KirinDave]

It's funny how more people seem to say that without even trying it.

I've built several now. But compared to MFR or SC2 farms they've never been worth the effort or resource investment. They also seem to flip out after server resets. On more than one occasion I've found them in a state where I had to put down a block next to them to wake them up. But most importantly, they feel boring to me.

But either way, you can snark all you want about how no one tries them. No one really wants except when Forestry demands they do it. Even Direwolf20 seems reluctant to engage in them because Golem farms are so dang much better. He has one and he, one of the better large-build guys you can ask to meet, found them difficult and poorly documented. So, ah... I am glad they work for you. I submit they need design work.

It was the reason crop rotation system revolutionized farming.

I got no problem with fertilizer so long as I have SOME process to make that automated. MFR's system is really clever in my opinion. You need plant farms to help with animals and animal farms to help with plants. Seems good to me.

MFR's design is superior because you can engage with it and disengage with it at will and expect to to continue on relatively well. Forestry's system isn't "stable" in the sense that it requires constant human intervention. Look at most of the successful and popular solutions in Minecraft; people "build something" and then it works forever and they start working on the next project.

This is why Bees are great, trees are not awful I guess, and the farms suck. The farms require you to baby them forever, wheres bees or a properly built boiler system do not. You will be forever going back to an unsolved project because Apatite is just not common and requires unique mining. You can say that's more realistic, I suppose, but that's besdies the point. People play Minecraft to escape into lego projects, and part of the fun of Minecraft is the sense of completion.

Torches don't go out, right? Because that'd be tedious. Same principle.

In an actual tree farm, you cut down the trees when they mature, you plow up the dirt, re-fertilize it, then replant. So seems fairly realistic to me.

Please note above where you pointed out Minecraft is not realistic. It shouldn't be without a total mod conversion like TerraFirmaCraft.

 

[Mash]

In what universe do I get infinite water by having a couple of buckets worth of water in a three meter trough? In what universe does cobblestone hang mid-air without any anchor point?

And honestly? It's called 'soil degradation'. Don't use fertilizer? Crop yields drop. Significantly. This includes trees. It was the reason crop rotation system revolutionized farming.

In an actual tree farm, you cut down the trees when they mature, you plow up the dirt, re-fertilize it, then replant. So seems fairly realistic to me.

The Minecraft universe.

That's the point of my post. Minecraft trees don't work like that normally, so I feel absolutely no need to use arbitrary rules of tree growing whenever a mod introduces them.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I've built several now. But compared to MFR or SC2 farms they've never been worth the effort or resource investment. They also seem to flip out after server resets. On more than one occasion I've found them in a state where I had to put down a block next to them to wake them up. But most importantly, they feel boring to me.

But either way, you can snark all you want about how no one tries them. No one really wants except when Forestry demands they do it. Even Direwolf20 seems reluctant to engage in them because Golem farms are so dang much better. He has one and he, one of the better large-build guys you can ask to meet, found them difficult and poorly documented. So, ah... I am glad they work for you. I submit they need design work.

Eh, I just think people are thinking about them in the wrong perspective, and using them for the wrong dynamic.

I got no problem with fertilizer so long as I have SOME process to make that automated. MFR's system is really clever in my opinion. You need plant farms to help with animals and animal farms to help with plants. Seems good to me.

Umm... it's called a 'fabricater'? Or an automated crafting bench and a couple of wooden pipes with autarchic gates? Seriously, it's not that hard to automate. Your mining operation picks it up by the stack-load, you convert it into fertilizer, you keep your farm filled with any of a half dozen methods ranging from RP2 Managers to using gates and pipe wires. If it's in a remote location, use item tesseracts to keep it linked in.

MFR's design is superior because you can engage with it and disengage with it at will and expect to to continue on relatively well. Forestry's system isn't "stable" in the sense that it requires constant human intervention. Look at most of the successful and popular solutions in Minecraft; people "build something" and then it works forever and they start working on the next project.

Mine doesn't seem to need any human intervention. It's fairly trivial to automate, given the Hatch's design purpose was to do precisely this.

This is why Bees are great, trees are not awful I guess, and the farms suck. The farms require you to baby them forever, wheres bees or a properly built boiler system do not. You will be forever going back to an unsolved project because Apatite is just not common and requires unique mining. You can say that's more realistic, I suppose, but that's besdies the point. People play Minecraft to escape into lego projects, and part of the fun of Minecraft is the sense of completion.

Wait... bees don't require you to baby them? SINCE WHEN? They require nothing BUT manual hand-jiving until you have the species you are wanting fully established.

Apatite is found in nearly every chunk with terrain high enough to find it. And when you find some, it produces STACKS of the stuff. I've had no trouble keeping it maintained with my automated mining.

Torches don't go out, right? Because that'd be tedious. Same principle.

In what way is that a remotely similar principle?

The Minecraft universe.

That's the point of my post. Minecraft trees don't work like that normally, so I feel absolutely no need to use arbitrary rules of tree growing whenever a mod introduces them.

Never heard of bone-mealing saplings, then?

 

[Mash]

Never heard of bone-mealing saplings, then?

I have.

What I haven't heard of is a system in vanilla Minecraft that requires fertilizer, but doesn't significantly decrease the growth time of the tree.

Furthermore, bonemeal doesn't ruin the dirt.

Anything else I haven't heard of?

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I have.

What I haven't heard of is a system in vanilla Minecraft that requires fertilizer, but doesn't significantly decrease the growth time of the tree.

Umm... I don't know about your version of Minecraft, but in mine, that's what bonemeal does. It is fertilizer which significantly decreases the growth time of the tree.

Anything else I haven't heard of?

If you are still working with vanilla concepts, there's likely quite a bit, but I don't have the time to go over all of them.

 

[DoctorOr]

By the time another batch comes in, the first boiler is around 250 degrees and the second is usually below 100.

Warm up is not the same thing as operational. The presumption is that you store a quantity of fuel before turning on the boiler. The error occurred between keyboard and chair.[DOUBLEPOST=1366933541][/DOUBLEPOST]

Your mining operation picks it up by the stack-load

What mining operation? Why does my farm require a mining operation?[DOUBLEPOST=1366933611][/DOUBLEPOST]

Umm... I don't know about your version of Minecraft, but in mine, that's what bonemeal does. It is fertilizer which significantly decreases the growth time of the tree.

You didn't even read what you're replying to.

Bone meal does significantly reduce the growth time. Forestry fertilizer does not.
Bone meal does not destroy the dirt, turning it into sand. Forestry fertilizer does.