Recent Events Discussion (RED) Thread

[Celestialphoenix]

I think Squids mostly referring to the excessive amount of community pressure on devs to adopt the generic/standard RF function.

(rather than... oh I don't know- a power system thats actually appropriate for the mod design in question?)​

 

[RavynousHunter]

Aye, the current standard implementation is simplistic, but that isn't stopping anyone from making RF implementations that are more dynamic and complex.

 

[NJM1564]

Who said I wanted things to be harder? I can do that without your help.

Compatibility is surely a good thing in most cases. However, people are using RF just for the sake of using it, even if it doesn't fit the mod. RF is extremely limited. Many mods could've been way better, but RF is stopping them.

What mods is it not fitting into? And how. Give us examples don't just make generic complaints that can be takes a hundred different ways.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Honestly, you can do FAR more with RF than most people think they can. You can set up 'lossy' systems, you can set up engines that run even when there's no power to push, you can set up pipes that explode if they are over-filled, you can do energy loss per block... whatever you want to do, you can do it.

In other news, EnderIO now has a dev version up on their Jenkins which is compatible with Mek8 for their gas conduits.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

RF only has 1 variable. That's the limitation. All the things you said one could do with RF are done in the block, and could be done with any system.

Precisely my point!

It doesn't limit you by doing everything 'in house', which means you can do whatever the flock you want with your energy system. It's like complaining about your power line in your house not doing cable and being restrictive because you can't do cable TV with the power line.

RF is an energy API, not a mod. Do with it what you will.

 

[NJM1564]

And what if I want to do something like Rotarycraft does? I can't.

Then play fing roterycraft.

The point is it's not like complex power systems don't exist. (Take a look at the fallowing.) It's just that most people don't want to be forced to use them. You can hardly expect the minority to dictate policy.




Ðamien ℋazard @Damien_hazard · Mar 14

So i got a build of our mod to play with today! heres some screenshots

 

[Celestialphoenix]

We're not forcing the option onto people- we are asking for that option to be [more] available to people.

RF is an API. An API effectively is a toolset to make code development easier; so RF would indeed benefit from the option to run 2D [or 3D] complex power grids.
The question remains would the inherent jump in complexity, the extra weight and invested dev hours be of significant benefit to the overall userbase? or provide more benefit than those same dev hours sunk into a different limitation of RF.API?

(bearing in mind its theoretically possible to emulate the effects of a 2D powergrid within the existing API function)
​

That from Immersive Engineering? [Google isn't giving me too much- even search for this image gave sweet fa]
Looks epic all the same.

 

[goreae]

And what if I want to do something like Rotarycraft does? I can't.

What's stopping you exactly? From what I understand about rotarycraft's power system, it has torque and speed, which multiply together into power. You could make your machines and cables have torque and speed and set the RF level to torque*speed. Doesn't sound that difficult.

I agree with most everyone else here. RF isn't the problem. There is nothing bad about a universal power system. If I had the rotarycraft type mod described above, I could use that complex poiwer system to power TE machines, or anything else that accepts RF for that matter. I could disable all other power generators so what I have is a complex power system without limiting my play to just that one mod. I can install whatever machine-adding mods I want and they'd work with that power system.

 

[Eruantien]

We're not forcing the option onto people- we are asking for that option to be [more] available to people.

RF is an API. An API effectively is a toolset to make code development easier; so RF would indeed benefit from the option to run 2D [or 3D] complex power grids.
The question remains would the inherent jump in complexity, the extra weight and invested dev hours be of significant benefit to the overall userbase? or provide more benefit than those same dev hours sunk into a different limitation of RF.API?

(bearing in mind its theoretically possible to emulate the effects of a 2D powergrid within the existing API function)
​

That from Immersive Engineering? [Google isn't giving me too much- even search for this image gave sweet fa]
Looks epic all the same.

Unrelated but: why do your posts randomly have indented lines? Just curious.

 

[VapourDrive]

Getting mad at RF for not being able to directly replicate rotarycraft's tourque/speed system is foolish. For example, a simplification of the conversation:
Us: "Hey electricity is pretty neato, we like it"
CoolSquid: "I can't hold this battery to this screwdriver and have it turn this screw, the battery is limited".

Getting back to being serious here, lets compare the int in RF to be the number of electrons. You can say that a tile can only hold so many of these electrons at one time, you can say that a tile can only send/receive so many at a time. You can give your tile a heat value that increments when the flow is higher than and arbitrary value x and can then cause the tile to explode when it heats to a certain value. Or you can say that the flow gets bogged down slowly over time. Whatever. The api strips down energy to the most basic nature, which is why it could have been implemented into forge, just like the fluid system. The only limiting thing here is the lack of creativity that people have when implementing it.
But yeah at the end of the day, it simulates energy movement, not a turning stick.

 

[NJM1564]

That from Immersive Engineering? [Google isn't giving me too much- even search for this image gave sweet fa]
Looks epic all the same.

Ðamien ℋazard @Damien_hazard · Mar 14

Did you know you can copy paste from twitter and the heading's links will still work.
So for future reference you can just click on the red name to find the source twitter page and the date to find the specific post.

Lets see yah Immersive Engineering in dev by Damien Hazard.
https://twitter.com/Damien_hazard

 

[L0NExW0LF]

Ðamien ℋazard @Damien_hazard · Mar 14

Did you know you can copy paste from twitter and the heading's links will still work.
So for future reference you can just click on the red name to find the source twitter page and the date to find the specific post.

Lets see yah Immersive Engineering in dev by Damien Hazard.
https://twitter.com/Damien_hazard

Actually Immersive Engineering is being developed by @BluSunrize. Damien Hazard is making the models for it.

 

[Equitime]

Can I just stick my head above the parapet and risk being shot to pieces. People (CoolSquid being one) need to remember that there are new people trying to learn modded minecraft. There are other people who just want to play it to relax and not be overly complicated. Yes things can get more and more complex because you can code them that way. But how does that help the general rank and file? It doesn't. If you want something extra code it but please remember that without the new people modded minecraft will eventually grind to a halt. If people find it too difficult or not rewarding enough they won't use it.

 

[FyberOptic]

That from Immersive Engineering? [Google isn't giving me too much- even search for this image gave sweet fa]
Looks epic all the same.

I was just going to skim the thread until I saw that. It looks awesome. I want to play with that.

Anyhoo, as for RF, I just kind of shrug. I still come from the "we'll find a way to convert it" mentality so I personally don't mind having more than one power system. Not to mention, so many mods can share fuels these days that I feel that it hardly even matters about the power system itself. But I recognize that we're in a different time now for mods. There's so many more mods in modpacks nowadays, and modpacks are so prevalent, that the potential for confusion as to what works with what is a lot higher. Rather than having just a couple or so large mods that use power, you might have a couple dozen now. It was inevitable that mods would try to find better ways to work together with the direction things have gone.

I never even looked at RF until I wrote Flux Ducts, and I came to appreciate the API's simplicity. I was able to implement the power transfer in any way that I wanted. In fact I ended up rewriting that whole part of the mod when I came up with a better way to do it than my first go around. I would consider using it again if I ever make anything else that relies on a power system (as if I need yet another project!) just because it's one less thing to worry about.

If you ever wanted anything much more elaborate, there's really no reason why you can't create some kind of power transfer block which uses your own mod's mechanics to bridge RF power in, out, or both, depending entirely on how you want to do it. Or hell, don't use RF at all, even Lemming said it wasn't meant for everything. Your mod doesn't actually have to work with other mods. It all comes down to what you want, not other people.

But I've been modding versions lately from before anyone even came up with a power system, so what do I know!

 

[Celestialphoenix]

Unrelated but: why do your posts randomly have indented lines? Just curious.

Mostly for readability; It helps break up the wall of text.

Quite useful for putting footnotes at the end of a paragraph.​

Actually Immersive Engineering is being developed by @BluSunrize. Damien Hazard is making the models for it.

Ah- brilliant, thats the info I'm looking for. Thanks.

 

[King Lemming]

And what if I want to do something like Rotarycraft does? I can't.

You absolutely can. RotaryCraft is mechanical power. Just like machines in real life, once you've moved from shaft power to electricity, it's all electrons.

Fundamentally - AC, DC, doesn't matter - it's all a count of electrons. Yes, you can model it with differential equations, synchrophasors, V=IR, V=I*Z, however you like. But this is Minecraft and we need something Minecrafty and server friendly.

That's RF. And it lets us move energy between tiles. But you can do other things with it. TE dynamos have a torque-speed curve. TE machines likewise scale speed based on available energy. These features emulate some fairly advanced mechanics found in real power systems. You can do a LOT with RF.

And, you're under no obligation to use it. The community probably shouldn't push people to adopt it, but at the same time, having a standard that all mods can interact with is a good thing. That's part of the sandbox glory that is modded Minecraft.

 

[ljfa]

That's RF. And it lets us move energy between tiles. But you can do other things with it. TE dynamos have a torque-speed curve. TE machines likewise scale speed based on available energy. These features emulate some fairly advanced mechanics found in real power systems. You can do a LOT with RF.

At the end of the day RF is only one number though. Dynamos produce x amount of RF per tick. Machnies recieve x amount of RF per tick.
I don't see any place there for a two-variable system like torque and speed. And I think dynamos or machines scaling their speed based on the energy buffer doesn't have much to do with that.

 

[NJM1564]

At the end of the day RF is only one number though. Dynamos produce x amount of RF per tick. Machnies recieve x amount of RF per tick.
I don't see any place there for a two-variable system like torque and speed. And I think dynamos or machines scaling their speed based on the energy buffer doesn't have much to do with that.

I'm pretty sure you can run several sets of verifiables using the RF api.

 

[VapourDrive]

You absolutely can. RotaryCraft is mechanical power. Just like machines in real life, once you've moved from shaft power to electricity, it's all electrons.

Fundamentally - AC, DC, doesn't matter - it's all a count of electrons. Yes, you can model it with differential equations, synchrophasors, V=IR, V=I*Z, however you like. But this is Minecraft and we need something Minecrafty and server friendly.

That's RF. And it lets us move energy between tiles. But you can do other things with it. TE dynamos have a torque-speed curve. TE machines likewise scale speed based on available energy. These features emulate some fairly advanced mechanics found in real power systems. You can do a LOT with RF.

And, you're under no obligation to use it. The community probably shouldn't push people to adopt it, but at the same time, having a standard that all mods can interact with is a good thing. That's part of the sandbox glory that is modded Minecraft.

Good to know I pretty much hit the nail directly on the head

 

[Padfoote]

I'm not saying RF is bad. I'm just saying that it has certain limitations, and doesn't fit all mods. Some mod authors might feel pressed to implement it, which is a bad thing.

And? If it doesn't fit the mod and the author actually has a sense of direction for their mod they won't use RF.

There's pressure on everyone to do things certain ways. This is no different.