Quoting this myself because apparently this needs the Purple Text Treatment in order for people to pay attention to it. Be Nice.
Recent Events Discussion (RED) Thread
- Thread starter VapourDrive
- Start date
-
The FTB Forum is now read-only, and is here as an archive. To participate in our community discussions, please join our Discord! https://ftb.team/discord
I guess all you pro-EMC peeps never actually played EE2, since its effect on overall gameplay was massive. In Ye Olde days of Tekkit on 1.2.5, one of the most effective ways to produce raw materials was the EMC flower. There were tutorials based on getting the best space/collector/EMC ratio, only involving other mods as a way to fetch the diamonds. Energy production? Replace the diamonds with charcoal. The fact is, EE2 distorted the game to be about EE2, not the other mods.
If you have played EE2, and are suggesting it isn't a race to the inevitable singularity, you haven't considered how modded Minecraft has changed. Automation is much stronger than it was in 1.2.5, so reaching the tipping point is easier, no matter how big you make the numbers. Someone will find the magic combination of mods equivalent to Blaze Rod maceration, and now everything with a EMC value is now a post-scarcity resource. Heck, give RotaryCraft resources six digit EMC costs, and it becomes the EMC source, not the EMC consumer.
Anyway RotaryCraft doesn't have oregen. Every 'raw material' is a byproduct of some process, so really they shouldn't be transmutable.
If you have played EE2, and are suggesting it isn't a race to the inevitable singularity, you haven't considered how modded Minecraft has changed. Automation is much stronger than it was in 1.2.5, so reaching the tipping point is easier, no matter how big you make the numbers. Someone will find the magic combination of mods equivalent to Blaze Rod maceration, and now everything with a EMC value is now a post-scarcity resource. Heck, give RotaryCraft resources six digit EMC costs, and it becomes the EMC source, not the EMC consumer.
Anyway RotaryCraft doesn't have oregen. Every 'raw material' is a byproduct of some process, so really they shouldn't be transmutable.
I'm not even sure why people would want to EMC up Rotarycraft anyway. Doesn't seem like the fans of either of the mods would cross over a lot. If people want EMC support for reactorcraft or chromaticraft it'd make sense, but it ruins the exploration aspect of chromaticraft and it kinda makes sense for reactorcraft since you don't have to tear up the land for resources, but it's not like you can't just make some agricraft plants to grow those resources if you really don't want to mine or spawn stuff in.
I'm actually considering adding Project E to my new modded Infinity LP instance. By default, it won't make anything RotaryCraft or modded if it doesn't have an established EMC value for one of the item's constituent parts. For example, if PE doesn't know how much copper costs, then you can't use it to mass produce copper gears. Things like HSLA steel and the like, that are products of machine processing instead of crafted components (like pneumatic servos in TE), also have no default EMC value unless you give them one explicitly. At least, that's how I remember PE working in 1.6, and I don't see why it'd change that much. That leaves it as still something of a challenge: you can mass produce HSLA steel, but you have to produce its constituent components first, then feed it into a working blast furnace. The same goes for jet fuel: you can transmute everything but the ethanol (which itself could be the product of transmutation), but you still need the fractionator to make the actual jet fuel itself, and a grinder to grind up netherrack and soul sand.
In my mind, its not much different from using something like Magical Crops to farm mob drops or even an actual mob farm to get endless resources. Hell, if you want to make endless HSLA steel (using Infinity as a base), all you need is a couple MFR mob farms for creepers, zombies, and wither skeletons as well as a igneous extruder/pulverizer setup. Getting mob essence is as easy as setting up an essence ore berry farm and hooking it up to an autonomous activator/sewer combo. BAM. With nothing more than MFR and TE, you now have endless steel. One requires more work than the other, sure, but the end result is the same. Some people just prefer using the simpler route, and ya know what? That's okay.
In my mind, its not much different from using something like Magical Crops to farm mob drops or even an actual mob farm to get endless resources. Hell, if you want to make endless HSLA steel (using Infinity as a base), all you need is a couple MFR mob farms for creepers, zombies, and wither skeletons as well as a igneous extruder/pulverizer setup. Getting mob essence is as easy as setting up an essence ore berry farm and hooking it up to an autonomous activator/sewer combo. BAM. With nothing more than MFR and TE, you now have endless steel. One requires more work than the other, sure, but the end result is the same. Some people just prefer using the simpler route, and ya know what? That's okay.
Back when I was using Energy Manipulator (which then became AetherCraft (which then broke too many things for my tastes)), I also defined all my own "EMC" values to be just raw materials (excluding alloys & special crafting ingots). Any craftable machines/blocks/items never had EMC values. This does help avoid massive "dupes/exploits" and avoidance of all mods "tech progression", but at least gives you the ability to recycle excess materials into materials that may be of more use. It's really the best way to deal with EMC in a mod pack, unless it's a themed pack where EMC is your only way of creating items (like in the original FTB map).
When did this turn into 'is PE+RC good or bad' to 'is PE good or bad'? It's my understanding that this discussion is about whether or not projectE breaks the progression tree of rotarycraft, not if it's balanced or not. We're talking about its validity when used with rotarycraft, not with other mods. Yes,s projectE can make resources really easy, that's a given. but do they break rotarycraft progression one little bit?
And if it doesn't have worldgen, then that's even better. No need to define values at all. I can get right into it with EMC values just on vanilla items. However, reactorcraft I know for a fact has worldgen. I'd still want to add EMC values to those items. I use EMC as an alternative to the grind that mining can be. Instead of making an end-tier resource with EMC, I can make a factory to make it from the raw vanilla resources in some antimatter condensers. I personally dislike mining. I prefer to make my own resources rather than gather from the world. EMC helps to do that in a way that's balanced to my tastes.
This is just my two cents on the issue but ...
When did it become a thing, at least among some modders, to try to force their sense of 'balance' on other mods? And when did we, as a community, start agreeing that this was a good thing? I mean seriously. I mean ... what makes one mod so sacrosanct that it overwrites the rights of every other mod out there? I ask because this seems to be cropping up more and more in the past year. I understand the frustration of people using other mods to 'break' progression, but that's the very nature of an environment with multiple mods when they're not all made by the same author. The only way to truly avoid that is by breaking your mod free from Forge entirely. If your mod is separate then people *can't* add in all the other mods and break your progression. But if it's a part of the Forge ecosystem then one has to understand that people will add all sorts of other mods and things will get tweaked whether one likes it or not.
Don't get me wrong. I respect that modmakers have a vision for their own mods, but I fail to grok why that vision is somehow seen as greater the vision of every other modmaker, as well as the visions of the plethora of modpack creators who utilize these mods to create something entirely new.
My thoughts on the matter? Create! Make cool things! And share them with others! But don't get offended when someone mixes together mods in a way you don't like. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean others aren't allowed to. And don't try to stop them from sharing what they enjoy either. Just because you don't want them to share what they like doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to. Some people will like certain mods. Some people won't. Some people will like certain modpacks. Some people won't. But just freaking let people like what they like, people! It's not that hard!
*sigh*
When did it become a thing, at least among some modders, to try to force their sense of 'balance' on other mods? And when did we, as a community, start agreeing that this was a good thing? I mean seriously. I mean ... what makes one mod so sacrosanct that it overwrites the rights of every other mod out there? I ask because this seems to be cropping up more and more in the past year. I understand the frustration of people using other mods to 'break' progression, but that's the very nature of an environment with multiple mods when they're not all made by the same author. The only way to truly avoid that is by breaking your mod free from Forge entirely. If your mod is separate then people *can't* add in all the other mods and break your progression. But if it's a part of the Forge ecosystem then one has to understand that people will add all sorts of other mods and things will get tweaked whether one likes it or not.
Don't get me wrong. I respect that modmakers have a vision for their own mods, but I fail to grok why that vision is somehow seen as greater the vision of every other modmaker, as well as the visions of the plethora of modpack creators who utilize these mods to create something entirely new.
My thoughts on the matter? Create! Make cool things! And share them with others! But don't get offended when someone mixes together mods in a way you don't like. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean others aren't allowed to. And don't try to stop them from sharing what they enjoy either. Just because you don't want them to share what they like doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to. Some people will like certain mods. Some people won't. Some people will like certain modpacks. Some people won't. But just freaking let people like what they like, people! It's not that hard!
*sigh*
The problem I see with arguing is that you'll never change anyone's opinion, no matter how hard you argue. It's only going to cause tension and bad stuff like that. So, if we could stop this debate and move on to some neat recent events, that'd be great.
Celestialphoenix
Too Much Free Time
My thoughts exactly.
For those of you who were playing the EE way back in the day when I was on sabbatical from MineCraft (I only came back to mods in late 1.2.5, only played the Pyramid on Insanity, & then went right to 1.4.7), did Xeno ever try adding in a... processing tax?
Smelting is worth the EMC of 1/8th of a coal, or 1/12th of a blaze rod, or 1/1000th of a lava bucket... whichever was highest. So... Coal's EMC is 256 (probably wrong, but whatever). A Raw Beef is worth 32. Beef (cooked version) would be worth 64 in this example. Maybe crafting would be worth 5% over the raw resources, or some-such?
The two biggest problems I have with EMC conversion is the ability to pull OUT crafted materials, and the multiplicative power generation. I still haven't figured out good ways to fix one of those, and the other requires code access, and I'd invalidate my build being compatible with anyone else's... maybe a reversible blacklist for the TransTable/TransTablet/Condenser. So you can do either blocking individual "exploit" items, or just use the whitelist if you only want raw materials.
The powergen is easy. Remove the multiplication on relays. I've never understood why that was a good idea in default. It encourages nothing good in the game... just AFK near your solar flowers or use a chunk loader. Tadah! Infinite resources that just keep getting faster. Collectors/relays by themselves aren't too bad. They take IRL hours to break if there's only one going through a relay into a condenser. It's the multiplicative effect that lets them be used for "real" resource generation. Yes infinity is infinity, and renewable is renewable... but TIME is the most valuable resource in any video game (and most activities in general actually), and if it is more TIME effective to go search the world for an Oil Ocean biome rather than search for a single bedrock oil spring which is infinite but only produces a bucket per MC day (or some other rather insignificant amount), what do you think literally any reasonable person would do? That's why the power flowers were so reviled. They did bring the game just that one step closer to creative, and not in a good way. At this point I could probably beat the resource generation speed of a solar flower by using one of the faster quarry methods and condensing the low-EMC items with ExU to not clog up the condenser... but that's not a problem for me. It's not the raw EMC that's my issue, it's my ability to generate it with nearly no effort, never having to leave my base, and exponentially duplicating a simple build.
But seriously, I don't get how people think EMC suddenly allows you to skip stuff other than having to explore or mine for materials more than once. Obviously assuming the Alchemical Tome is disabled (which it is by default, and "First rule of configs: 90% of people won't see your configs. 95% of people won't change them." - via immibis), because yes, teaching your Transmutation Table/Tablet the ENTIRE EMC registry is a bit skippy
.I see literally no downside to EMC allowing you to squeak by and jury rig a build to make one tungsten and then endlessly duplicating it with EQUIVALENT material worth as compared to my buddy just handing me a stack of the stuff whenever I want, thereby COMPLETELY bypassing Reika's tree entirely with no learning whatsoever. At least my MacGyver taught me something about the mod. And the first person to suggest that maybe my buddy EMC'd the tungsten is totally missing the point. Why does my ability to skip the tech tree (which I can't even DO with ProjectE unless someone explicitly allowed it, or cheats in an item) become ok as long as SOMEONE, SOMEWHERE on the server can theoretically know how to get there "legit"? I mean that makes no sense to me, at all.
Actually debate CAN change people's opinion. Even those who you are debating with. That's why it was taught in schools for centuries, after all. And even if this entire thing doesn't sway the thoughts of anyone participating in it? It's giving two sides to the debate for anyone lurking, so they can form their conclusions with info from both sides.
As long as it stays reasonably civil (which I'm rather impressed that this has stayed as civil as it has. Impassioned, yeah, but no outright explicit attacks that I noticed. Closest (that I noticed) was mine when I was all "Reika, how are you missing this") debate is a GOOD thing, IMO. It gives bystanders more information, and theoretically makes you examine your own stance on things.
That said, arguing (where you use personal attacks and break all the rules of debate)? Yeah that's a bad idea.
Edit:
Actually you can, just use DynIMC and have it sort after Reika's mods in the load order and various initialization stages. ProjectE only uses the last IMC message. You should also be able to use the commands in-game. The devs were reasonably sure the in-game commands over-rode the IMC assignment when I asked a while back, though I've never tested.
Obviously assuming Reika gives permission, which is... not likely at current time.
Last edited:
Celestialphoenix
Too Much Free Time
Fair point on that last paragraph.
Well your buddy still had to set up that processing line. One of the neat things with SMP is being able to trade skills and resources- the key thing being that skill [the gating mechanic in RoC] still existing.
Allowing a method to produce those materials outside of RoC would break that progression, as everyone in that world could skip the skill gate to bulk produce said materials. (there is a significant step up between manually running a single cycle and automatic full production).
However I feel a fair compromise would be if the [ssp] or a [smp] player could demonstrate a full auto setup in game [thereby fulfilling the skill requirement], then yeah, go for it.
Well your buddy still had to set up that processing line. One of the neat things with SMP is being able to trade skills and resources- the key thing being that skill [the gating mechanic in RoC] still existing.
The overall tech tree and progression within that world is still intact, even if you've personally bypassed the lot.
Allowing a method to produce those materials outside of RoC would break that progression, as everyone in that world could skip the skill gate to bulk produce said materials. (there is a significant step up between manually running a single cycle and automatic full production).
However I feel a fair compromise would be if the [ssp] or a [smp] player could demonstrate a full auto setup in game [thereby fulfilling the skill requirement], then yeah, go for it.
(by example; the transmutation tablet absorbing a full stack [or more] of material to 'learn' how to replicate that item with EMC. [so RoC to EMC from the start is ok, but EMC to RoC take a lot longer to unlock.)
To fetch the diamonds? Ah I remember that logic. Way back in the early days of moding where people brought the vanilla logic of diamonds are the end all be all of everything.
You should know that the "Ye Olde days of Tekkit on 1.2.5," had a fraction of the mods that exist in current ME.
With mod systems like ender quarrys, big reactors, gendistry, vein miner, digital miners, fraims, solars, Slowpokes sterling lava gen, moo fluids, magical crops, fluxed crystals, mystcraft/ rf tool dems and any number of them that I can't think up off the top of my head. Ore and power gen is a pointless thing to complain about. PE is just another option.
I'll tell you my experiences with ProjectE
The first time I used ProjectE I automated emc production with a trillion tones of cobble.
It was good it was fun it was interesting. I'll never used that system again.
Second time I brute forced EMC flowers.
It was good it was fun it was interesting. I'll never used that system again.
Third time I used the EMC tablet as a junk store any only pulled out what I needed or did not want to make dozens of copies of. As a replacement to auto-crafting. As while AE auto-crafting is interesting the entire system is boring.
It was good it was fun it was interesting. I will use that system again.
The point is Re-playability. The ability to play the same thing over and over again. Often by playing it in different ways.
Adding PE adds another way to play. It adds a choice in play styles. A choice.
Wait are we talking about RotaryCraft or ProjectE here? Since any EE-type mod is going to distort the game towards itself. The ability to transmute materials to other materials affects any mods that use said resources, since you know, everything is now wood or sunlight or whatever you store your EMCs in. Arguably, wanting to opt out of EMC-shananigans is trying to avoid your mod be rebalanced by outside forces, not the inverse.
Also people agreed that destroying mods in the named of balance was okay back in 1.2.5 days. It's why EE3 was a stone that turned things into other things, and EE2 had actually content.
Incidentally when I refer to retrieving 'the diamonds' that's more a catch-all for any high level resource. Diamonds just happen to be the default shiny. You could be retrieving the Dark Matter or Red Matter or Collectors or whatever.
I named no mods or individuals nor will I name any mods or individuals as this isn't just one or two mods or mod creators. This is a trend I've noticed rising in the past year or so in the community. And your post here highlights that problem exactly. Why should it matter if people want to tweak things a bit to their liking? Why shouldn't players, mod creators, and modpack creators be able to balance things around an entire pack containing far more than just one mod? And why shouldn't players be free to share said pack, then, with others?
Remember. Just because one person thinks that a mod or tweak destroys balance doesn't mean that it actually does. On the flip side, so what if it does destroy the balance? If you don't like it, don't play it. It's as simple as that. It's not our place to tell others how they should or should not enjoy modded Minecraft. We all play for different reasons, after all.
Last edited:
Remember, though, it is entirely within the modder's right to do so. The mod is their code, and thus it is their IP - they can do whatever they want with it, even if we dislike what they do with it.
And please don't go on with the "don't like it, don't play it" argument. A while ago I remember someone saying that not playing it isn't an option for people playing on servers, not if they want to remain competitive at all. It's really annoying to be the person behind everyone else in terms of progression.
TL;DR: It is legal, even if we disagree with it, and I quite dislike the "don't like it, don't play it" argument.
And please don't go on with the "don't like it, don't play it" argument. A while ago I remember someone saying that not playing it isn't an option for people playing on servers, not if they want to remain competitive at all. It's really annoying to be the person behind everyone else in terms of progression.
TL;DR: It is legal, even if we disagree with it, and I quite dislike the "don't like it, don't play it" argument.
While not naming people/mods is a nice gesture, people are going to assume that you are talking about specific things based on the context. Such is words on the internet.
It shouldn't matter, but it does. If you know what you're doing, Minetweaker is great for pulling mods together and eliminating arbitrary randomness. However, when you don't know what you're doing, you can break a bunch of stuff. Reika's policy against Minetweaker exists more to cut down on bug reports from Tweaker-casued issues, than it does to maintain balance. The fact of the matter is that packs don't exist in a vacuum.
Unfortunately, while this is a solution to the problem, it doesn't work. There are plenty of posts complaining about how X item is OP or how Y mod is literally creative mod. People like complaining.
It would be great if everyone could be happy playing virtual legos their own way, but in the end, modpacks and servers make this harder as well as easier. Tekkit was a gateway into modded 1.2.5, and FtB packs are gateways now. And they can't be everyone's cup of tea.
True. It is within their rights. I've never denied that. Just as other modders and modpack makers are within their rights to disagree with and decry said antagonistic policies and behaviours.
Actually I'll repeat that ad nauseum as that's the most important part of what I'm saying. If you don't like a mod or how a mod is in a certain pack then you don't use that mod or play said pack. And if a server uses that mod or pack then find one that doesn't or make your own. There are hundreds of mods out there. Hundreds of modpacks out there. Hundreds of servers out there. Find one you like and leave the others alone so long as they're not doing something stupid like breaking Mojang's EULA.
Dislike the argument all you will, that doesn't mean that the argument doesn't have any weight.
That's the risk of any tool. In good hands it's a boon. In bad hands it's a danger.
And no, packs don't exist in a vacuum. Neither do mods. It'd be nice if people stopped treating them as if they did.
Yes, people do like to complain and offer nothing but negative criticism. But we don't have to listen to them or give their argument any weight.
How do modpacks make letting people be happy play the game their way any harder? It's easier. Across the board. Period. Yes, gateway mods aren't everyone's cup of tea. That's not their role. They are, as you put it, gateway mods. People start with them, then often go onto different things.
I'll openly admit I started with a DW20 pack in 1.4.7, then continued using it up through 1.5.4. Since 1.6, though, I've crafted my own packs and ran my own servers for me and my friends. Why? Because I didn't care for any of the other non-challenge packs. Because I thought I could do better (YMMV, of course). And mostly because I wanted something that noone else had. Do I decry others that enjoy the modpacks I don't care for? No. Do I decry others that enjoy mods I refuse to run for various reasons? No. Why? Because they have as much of a right to enjoy their version of Minecraft as I have to enjoy mine. My enjoyment is not dependent on what they are doing in any way, shape, or form.