Recent Events Discussion (RED) Thread

[trajing]

Actually I'll repeat that ad nauseum as that's the most important part of what I'm saying. If you don't like a mod or how a mod is in a certain pack then you don't use that mod or play said pack. And if a server uses that mod or pack then find one that doesn't or make your own. There are hundreds of mods out there. Hundreds of modpacks out there. Hundreds of servers out there. Find one you like and leave the others alone so long as they're not doing something stupid like breaking Mojang's EULA.

I'll go through the parts of this I disagree with.

If you don't like a mod or how a mod is in a certain pack then you don't use that mod or play said pack. And if a server uses that mod or pack then find one that doesn't or make your own.

I highly doubt that the average modded Minecraft player can start a server. Sure, quite a few can, but not everyone.

Find one you like and leave the others alone

For many, many players who already started playing those words are immensely annoying. Why? Because not everyone likes beginning game MC. I know I don't like it much, with certain notable exceptions. In addition, if you're playing with a specific friend, switching servers isn't always an option.

 

[NJM1564]

Remember, though, it is entirely within the modder's right to do so. The mod is their code, and thus it is their IP - they can do whatever they want with it, even if we dislike what they do with it.
And please don't go on with the "don't like it, don't play it" argument. A while ago I remember someone saying that not playing it isn't an option for people playing on servers, not if they want to remain competitive at all. It's really annoying to be the person behind everyone else in terms of progression.
TL;DR: It is legal, even if we disagree with it, and I quite dislike the "don't like it, don't play it" argument.

Competitive? Lol what. So if you are playing on servers it's a competition?
That's some real interesting thinking going on there.

Just for your info I don't think most are in this for a competition.
Some enter servers late. Some don't have 24/7 to spend on a game.
Some just want to build.
But most most just outgrew that kind of thinking.

 

[trajing]

Competitive? Lol what. So if you are playing on servers it's a competition?
That's some real interesting thinking going on there.

Not what I meant at all. The next sentence says what I meant by "competitive".
Anyway, I'm done arguing this, sorry if I offended anyone, it was unintentional if I did. This isn't something I really feel like discussion right now.

 

[NJM1564]

Hay has anyone played the new pack called Terra. It has the best balance ever. I don't think any player could ever complain about it's balance.

Though I did die 4 times in 3 minuets.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

'Don't like it don't play it' is too often a cheap way of dismissing someone without actually addressing the substance of the argument in itself. Theres a reason why [a lot of] people really despise that phrase.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Remember, though, it is entirely within the modder's right to do so. The mod is their code, and thus it is their IP - they can do whatever they want with it, even if we dislike what they do with it.

What is within their rights? Locking down their mod so that no-one else can mess with it, or opening up other people's mods so that players can mess with them? I'd be with you if you meant the latter, but not the former.

 

[RavynousHunter]

What is within their rights? Locking down their mod so that no-one else can mess with it, or opening up other people's mods so that players can mess with them? I'd be with you if you meant the latter, but not the former.

Why? If its their right, then its their right. You may not like how they exercise said rights, but that doesn't magically negate the fact that they have them and will, at times, exercise them in ways you don't like. Let me frame it in another argument:

I have made a new kind of energy drink, using similar ingredients (which, in America, are publicly available in the ingredients list to anyone that can read) to another energy drink, but with my own personal spin on it that makes it a protected, derivative work under US copyright law. People enjoy it, I enjoy making it, and that's fine. I decide to patent my idea, so people can't take my formula or otherwise infringe upon my rights as an intellectual property holder. In my patent, there's a clause that basically states that "if you modify my product, I hereby release myself from liability for any damages caused by consumption of the modified version of my product." Then, somebody cuts my drink with a part or two of hard liquor. One man, on his way home, crashes his car into a lamp post whilst driving under the influence. He attempts to place the blame on me for my creation, instead of his addition of intoxicating amounts of whiskey. Am I to blame for his experiences whilst using a modified version of my product?

This is, according to my understanding, the main impetus behind "do not screw with this mod, or I will not help you" rules in mods' license agreements. They are the ones that cut the drink with the liquor, they are the ones responsible for their actions. Now, if I, either thru intent or neglect, allowed a harmful substance (let's say some form of cleanser I use to clean my equipment) into my product, then I'd be liable for any damages that occur as a result of the use of an unsafe product that I, myself, manufactured. Basically, if you screw with it, then its your problem. You didn't have to screw with it, but you did; you knowing whether or not your actions will harm your experience is irrelevant. You intended to modify the product, your intent led to action, and people should be held responsible for their actions.

 

[keybounce]

Sounds like you don't quite know how EMC works.

True.

I knew of the old equivalent exchange (even both Full Metal Alchemist series); I heard about UU matter being able to be converted into anything.

I know of automated producers that supply infinite amounts of anything given sufficient time, and chunk loaders that generate stuff overnight.

I know that the old EE had the problem of if you made something too expensive, it became the source of everything else instead.

And I saw people saying that you only had to make something once, and show it to the table, and you could make more.

I did not know that you had to explicitly assign a value to things; I thought it was "look at the crafting costs and auto-assign costs". So steel, made from iron, sand, gunpowder, and coal, is only that expensive. Etc.

So like, something that costs 10 diamonds and a stack of iron total to craft would be worth an EMC equal to the sum of 10 diamonds and a stack of iron.

Which means that it can turn into 10 diamonds and a stack of iron. For rotarycraft, that stack of iron might be far more valuable than the other item.

b. that is absolutely not how projectE works. The industrial coil would be empty on production, not full.

OK, full stop. I need some more information then.

Last time I checked (and it's been a few versions), an item could have a number associated with it. Vanilla used this number for damage -- as the number increased, the item was weaker. Other mods used it for power -- as the number increased, the item was stronger. Still others used it to identify different items that shared an item ID (although I understand that items now have NBT data for this purpose).

So, how does it know whether to duplicate the data, or zero it out?
What about items that have NBT data (think "Unique Artifacts" -- http://www.minecraftforum.net/forum...e-artifacts-powerful-randomly-generated-items -- where being able to make a duplicate of a rare, powerful find is game breaking).

c. if you even give bedrock dust an EMC value (which I personally wouldn't) it would be really high, somewhere from 5-7 digits. You won't be able to pull out a barrel's worth with little to no effort.

Which again becomes the problem -- I turn one bedrock dust into everything else that I use in my base. Sure, it takes me a while to get there. But once there, I have everything.

Loss-less exchange doesn't just violate thermodynamics.
The first FMA video series was very clear by the end where the real power was coming from (different world); the second series made it seem like "truth" (side question: what was that character's name in the original Japanese? It felt like the translators deliberately altered the name to appease religious Americans) was testing people (and don't forget Alphonse's final "exchange/sacrifice"), so the power/energy was coming from "him"(?).

d. I don't know what any of those are, or how to make them, but how the heck would you skip them with projectE? If you can't skip it without projectE, you can't skip it with. And super expensive items would be super expensive in terms of EMC, so yeah.

Again: magnets are items found in at least two mods for different purposes. I recall a bunch of quests where you had to turn in 8 level 8 magnets, and you made bigger magnets by combining smaller ones. So, being able to make lots and lots of little magnets easily would have been very useful. Other than that, there's reactor craft, that has a tokomok reactor that is ... big and expensive to make. (Probably holds the current record for largest effective multiblock structure). And yes, it uses magnets / solenoids / etc. (No, I don't play with it -- I'm learning rotarycraft survival in 1710 after experimenting with it in creative in 164).

e. If toxic waste isn't already used to grief, then they're expensive enough that if one did make an automatic production system for them, it would be really expensive and almost entirely not worth it. And besides that, any pack dev that decides to get toxic waste an EMC value is a fool.

... Mmm... fools ... bedrock tools for real world cash. Real server. Wall-o-shame material.

Would not surprise me if someone did.

I would personally only make values for items obtainable in-world. Without being processed by any machines. Like iron ore would get a value, but not ingots. That way, you can only use EMC to generate raw resources to be processed by machines, not the machines themselves.

That makes more sense.

 

[NJM1564]

True.
I know of automated producers that supply infinite amounts of anything given sufficient time, and chunk loaders that generate stuff overnight.

And I saw people saying that you only had to make something once, and show it to the table, and you could make more.

I did not know that you had to explicitly assign a value to things; I thought it was "look at the crafting costs and auto-assign costs". So steel, made from iron, sand, gunpowder, and coal, is only that expensive. Etc.

Which means that it can turn into 10 diamonds and a stack of iron. For rotarycraft, that stack of iron might be far more valuable than the other item.

OK, full stop. I need some more information then.

Last time I checked (and it's been a few versions), an item could have a number associated with it. Vanilla used this number for damage -- as the number increased, the item was weaker. Other mods used it for power -- as the number increased, the item was stronger. Still others used it to identify different items that shared an item ID (although I understand that items now have NBT data for this purpose).

So, how does it know whether to duplicate the data, or zero it out?
What about items that have NBT data (think "Unique Artifacts" -- http://www.minecraftforum.net/forum...e-artifacts-powerful-randomly-generated-items -- where being able to make a duplicate of a rare, powerful find is game breaking).

Which again becomes the problem -- I turn one bedrock dust into everything else that I use in my base. Sure, it takes me a while to get there. But once there, I have everything.

Loss-less exchange doesn't just violate thermodynamics.
The first FMA video series was very clear by the end where the real power was coming from (different world); the second series made it seem like "truth" (side question: what was that character's name in the original Japanese? It felt like the translators deliberately altered the name to appease religious Americans) was testing people (and don't forget Alphonse's final "exchange/sacrifice"), so the power/energy was coming from "him"(?).

Again: magnets are items found in at least two mods for different purposes. I recall a bunch of quests where you had to turn in 8 level 8 magnets, and you made bigger magnets by combining smaller ones. So, being able to make lots and lots of little magnets easily would have been very useful. Other than that, there's reactor craft, that has a tokomok reactor that is ... big and expensive to make. (Probably holds the current record for largest effective multiblock structure). And yes, it uses magnets / solenoids / etc. (No, I don't play with it -- I'm learning rotarycraft survival in 1710 after experimenting with it in creative in 164).

... Mmm... fools ... bedrock tools for real world cash. Real server. Wall-o-shame material.

Packs are generally built around single-player not packs. So leaving things active overnight isn't considered. Generally it should be balanced based on a average player one that has homework or a job. They might only have at most 4 to 6 hours to play if even that. And no server to play on.

 

[goreae]

OK, full stop. I need some more information then.

Last time I checked (and it's been a few versions), an item could have a number associated with it. Vanilla used this number for damage -- as the number increased, the item was weaker. Other mods used it for power -- as the number increased, the item was stronger. Still others used it to identify different items that shared an item ID (although I understand that items now have NBT data for this purpose).

So, how does it know whether to duplicate the data, or zero it out?
What about items that have NBT data (think "Unique Artifacts" -- http://www.minecraftforum.net/forum...e-artifacts-powerful-randomly-generated-items -- where being able to make a duplicate of a rare, powerful find is game breaking).

meta data and damage should be thought of differently. Damage uses meta data, but meta data isn't damage. So black wool isn't almost broken wool, but an almost broken wooden pick is almost broken. projectE is smart enough to see if it's damage or meta values (mostly) and you can configure the values so it only accepts the empty one.

and with NBT data, you need to specifically whitelist the items you want it to keep NBT data for. For example, an agricraft potato seed with max stats (10/10/10) (agricraft is like the best example mod for NBT data ever I swear) will only be taught as a blank potato seed, not a 10/10/10 seed unless you tell it specifically in the configs to remember NBT data.

The first FMA video series was very clear by the end where the real power was coming from (different world); the second series made it seem like "truth" (side question: what was that character's name in the original Japanese? It felt like the translators deliberately altered the name to appease religious Americans) was testing people (and don't forget Alphonse's final "exchange/sacrifice"), so the power/energy was coming from "him"(?).

The original series bordered more on magic than science. I mean the power for alchemy comes from the life force of another world. Granted in brotherhood the power comes from the life force of the earth, but still. The power for alchemy did not come from Truth (which is actually his official name). Truth is simply the guardin of an alchemist's gate. Truth represents the cost of alchemy, everything one has given up for it. The power comes from different places. Alkahestrists tap into the earth's life force directly, while western alchemists use its residual energies.

Anyways, the laws of thermodynamics doesn't really apply to mineraft. Charcoal is an infinite resource. You can get it from just saplings, a block of dirt, and a furnace. Burning that charcoal, there is infinite energy. That energy will never run or reach an equilibrium.

Again: magnets are items found in at least two mods for different purposes. I recall a bunch of quests where you had to turn in 8 level 8 magnets, and you made bigger magnets by combining smaller ones. So, being able to make lots and lots of little magnets easily would have been very useful. Other than that, there's reactor craft, that has a tokomok reactor that is ... big and expensive to make. (Probably holds the current record for largest effective multiblock structure). And yes, it uses magnets / solenoids / etc. (No, I don't play with it -- I'm learning rotarycraft survival in 1710 after experimenting with it in creative in 164).

The level 8 magnets you talk about? That's magic bees. Completely different from rotarycraft. There is no possible way to use mysterious magnets to make rotarycraft magnets unless you went out of your way to make a recipe for that conversion. So yeah.

... Mmm... fools ... bedrock tools for real world cash. Real server. Wall-o-shame material.

Would not surprise me if someone did.

Which is entirely the fault of whatever idiot did that.

That makes more sense.

Especially for rotarycraft. In a mod based around a tier progression, where you have to get raw resource A, process it into tier 2 material B, process that into tier 3 material C, it's much more fun to have a factory producing these materials with an EMC-fueled bank of raw resources than to just pull a fusion reactor out of the tablet.

 

[Reika]

Which is entirely the fault of whatever idiot did that.

Maybe, but he chewed me out and hinted at the potential of seeking damages.

In other news, I got asked this....
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forum...-worldgen-civilization-and-more?comment=19207

Reika do you have a significant other?

No. All attempts failed miserably, being met with either hostility ("who said you were someone I might be interested in?"/"PFFFFHAHAHAHAHAHA"), disgust ("maybe you should ask out a treadmill first" [which, while mean, is somewhat amusing of a reply, though it is rather inappropriate to say to someone who is only slightly above average]), criticism ("could you be any more sexist? I would have come to you if I was interested!"), condescension ("you having to ask me is pathetic!"), or some combination of the above.


I generally try not to think about it anymore.


...Why do you ask?

And someone else (without hostile intention) called me a "guppy":
http://www.minecraftforum.net/forum...-worldgen-civilization-and-more?comment=19219

At least he was only curious, and not another one of those people playing matchmaker; I do not need a repeat of the incident with the guy trying to set me up with LyraChan (exactly why he thought she would be interested is beyond me, and for all I know she is like 16)....

 

[goreae]

Maybe, but he chewed me out and hinted at the potential of seeking damages.

I will agree with the fact that the individual in question is pretty frakking stupid.

 

[PhilHibbs]

Maybe, but he chewed me out and hinted at the potential of seeking damages.

Is that an April Fool? Please, for the sake of humanity, tell us it's a fake!

 

[TomeWyrm]

However I feel a fair compromise would be if the [ssp] or a [smp] player could demonstrate a full auto setup in game [thereby fulfilling the skill requirement], then yeah, go for it.

(by example; the transmutation tablet absorbing a full stack [or more] of material to 'learn' how to replicate that item with EMC. [so RoC to EMC from the start is ok, but EMC to RoC take a lot longer to unlock.)​

Not a bad idea. It'd be really annoying for certain common things and a white/blacklist system for "expanded learning" would probably get obnoxious. Fun idea to play with though!

Well your buddy still had to set up that processing line. One of the neat things with SMP is being able to trade skills and resources- the key thing being that skill [the gating mechanic in RoC] still existing.

The overall tech tree and progression within that world is still intact, even if you've personally bypassed the lot.​

Allowing a method to produce those materials outside of RoC would break that progression, as everyone in that world could skip the skill gate to bulk produce said materials. (there is a significant step up between manually running a single cycle and automatic full production).

How does the server's progression matter in any way? From any one individual's perspective, having access to Reika's AE system is equivalent to cheating in the items with NEI. Or pulling out a stack of tungsten by dropping some bedrockium into your transmutation table. You did no work, and you get items that required processing. In any case, ALL progression related arguments fall completely apart when you enter SMP because players can (and usually do) help other players to completely bypass tech trees and research gates and resource obtainment and power requirements. Which honestly makes the ability for a mod to act as a shortcut or helping hand for easing the tedium after you've proven you can do something once? Really welcome in my eyes. Once again, me doing this on a server could easily be more unbalanced by having a RoC veteran give me unfettered access to his AE system via Quantum Bridge. There I do literally no work and get all the benefit. That's not even assuming I can't just ask him for a suit of bedrock armor and a fully charged gravel gun. I routinely made Gravity Suit and Quantum Armor for my server-mates because I was the "tech" guy.

The premise that PE lets you skip anything is provably false. The idea that only having to do something once and then obtaining a simpler (if not necessarily easier or faster, depending on cost) method of getting whatever-it-is being somehow unbalanced just perplexes me. I can already do that in a dozen ways, how is PE (or anything else) somehow special as compared to me having NEI cheat mode, a trade-o-mat, or a friendly player on a server?

<snip>
If you don't like it, don't play it. It's as simple as that. It's not our place to tell others how they should or should not enjoy modded Minecraft. We all play for different reasons, after all.

First this quote, I agree with what Celestialphoenix says

'Don't like it don't play it' is too often a cheap way of dismissing someone without actually addressing the substance of the argument in itself. Theres a reason why [a lot of] people really despise that phrase.

Now my response to SynfulChaot...

It doesn't work like that. Not in even close to all cases. My longtime friends and I play on a server, I'm the only player that dislikes the addition of gregtech during our scheduled map reset. Gregtech makes changes to EVERY MOD IN THE PACK (Yes I know, not greg's defaults, configs, other mod authors. I've heard every argument already. Adding GT to a pack pretty much inevitably warps the whole bloomin thing. I don't care WHY, just that it does). I can't "not play" GT. Asking me to abandon my friends is callous and frankly a Hobson's choice is the refuge of a kind of absolutist that I personally can't stand. Not everyone can find a new server. Not everyone can make a new server. Not everyone can afford a new server. I can probably list reasons why "Don't play" is inapplicable to a wide variety of situations until I hit the character limit for posts on this forum. The argument *is* invalid in enough situations that I'm going to ask you just like trajing did. Please don't use that argument anymore. The GT example was a bit extreme, but the lesser version of "I have access to wireless transport of infinite RF amounts..." why would I (not an engineer, no superstitions, no self-set challenges, or the like) use another option for power transport? They're blatantly sub-optimal, the Tesseract IS the objectively better choice. Can I not play with TE? Maybe, but why should I be forced into that difficulty, or have to make that decision? That's a COMMUNITY level decision. Each individual server and pack makes the determination on what goes into it, and only the uncaring or unthinking pack devs will not try to contemplate their audiences' desires. Which is when these kinds of arguments/debates finally start making some sense. Maybe I WANT a pack where these exploits are encouraged, so I can find ways to stop them for a more balanced pack/server. Maybe I disable the tesseract but make conduits cheaper, or add lasers to transfer RF long-distance... or tesla coils.

That's up to me an MY community. NEVER should it be something mod devs argue about. Blocking off user choice is terrible, and a tool that should be used sparingly IMHO. You're going to get idiots no matter what you do, so why hinder the people that know what they're doing because of idiots and trolls?

I knew of the old equivalent exchange (even both Full Metal Alchemist series); I heard about UU matter being able to be converted into anything.

I know of automated producers that supply infinite amounts of anything given sufficient time, and chunk loaders that generate stuff overnight.

UU is another mod, and now takes ****ed up amounts of time to scan items into the database, stupendous amounts of energy to produce the liquid UU, even more power to produce whatever-it-is, and is a destructive scan to get the pattern with no guarantee of success. I'm not a big fan of the "universal" nature of the new UU... the old one was quite useful with the limited recipe set.

Time is the only valuable resource in most packs/instances. Chunk loading breaking that assumption is a chunk loading issue, not an EMC issue. I can do the same thing without chunkloaders anyway, assuming I AFK. That's not really something anyone should design for. Adding "protections" just adds tedium, which is nearly never fun (Hi clockwork engine!). Or it artificially (and obviously) slows progression... which also isn't fun.

I know that the old EE had the problem of if you made something too expensive, it became the source of everything else instead.

And I saw people saying that you only had to make something once, and show it to the table, and you could make more.

Yep, that's precisely how it works now and worked then. I still can't see any issue with the way it works now except in an enforced scarcity situation.

I did not know that you had to explicitly assign a value to things; I thought it was "look at the crafting costs and auto-assign costs". So steel, made from iron, sand, gunpowder, and coal, is only that expensive. Etc.

If it's a normal crafting/furnace operation, yeah that's basically it. It does a lot of automatic calculation to find the least advantageous/loop-abusable method of obtainment in an EMC value and uses that. But you can assign any value you want to any item, and it can't determine custom processing methods like TC4 Infusion or the RoC Blast Furnace on its own.

Which means that it can turn into 10 diamonds and a stack of iron. For rotarycraft, that stack of iron might be far more valuable than the other item.

And? Mystcraft Iron Ore Tendrils. Extra Utilities EnderQuarry. Funky Locomotion Frame Bore. RotaryCraft Boring Machine. Arbitrary amounts of iron at insane rates. Why does my ability to turn a Golden Apple I found in a chest, or a bunch of HSLA scraps into something useful to me suddenly break the game as compared to nearly everything else in modern modded Minecraft?

Which again becomes the problem -- I turn one bedrock dust into everything else that I use in my base. Sure, it takes me a while to get there. But once there, I have everything.

Only as much as that bedrock dust is worth. Same goes for diamonds, red matter, bedrockium, or anything else. Very soon after you have that bedrock dust, assuming you have the storage capability to HOLD these items (so AE probably), with RoC you could have everything ANYWAY. RoC is a mod BUILT around "turning the dial to 11". Literally a core feature of the mod is that pumping more energy into stuff makes it run better/faster. How is PE any different from that, except that it'll let you bypass crafting and processing, and exchange that gold you weren't using for 8 times the iron? Less thought involved? Because I'll fully admit it's easier... that's kinda the point of EMC conversion

Not touching the rest of the post, someone else already did a perfectly good job.

Also


Happy April Fools (No the contents of the post aren't an April 1 joke.)

 

[NJM1564]

Adding "protections" just adds tedium, which is nearly never fun (Hi clockwork engine!).

Though some tedium can be fun if done in the right way.
There's a clocktwerk engine that gives 50rf a twerk (crouch).

 

[Reika]

Is that an April Fool? Please, for the sake of humanity, tell us it's a fake!

No, that was very real.

 

[ljfa]

I do not need a repeat of the incident with the guy trying to set me up with LyraChan (exactly why he thought she would be interested is beyond me, and for all I know she is like 16)....

seriously? someone did that?

 

[Muse Euterpe]

Seriously no mod dev has the right to dictate how other devs make there mods. Or the right to say how players use there mods. (Seriously ProgectE has always bin the to hell with balance mod cause not even EE2's original dev could make it balanced. If you have that mod in your pack you do not care about balance. Not all pack devs give a freck about balance. Some of them want pack that are, shocking, supposed to be just fun.)
Once you distribute it you lose that sort of control. You are giving the mod out saying go have fun and do whatever.

Devs can in fact decide how other software interact with their software. AFAIK there was even a court sake about it.

 

[ljfa]

Devs can in fact decide how other software interact with their software. AFAIK there was even a court sake about it.

In the case of Minetweaker or ProjectE there is no real interaction though. No one of them changes the behavior of Rotarycraft or anything like that.

 

[Reika]

In the case of Minetweaker or ProjectE there is no real interaction though. No one of them changes the behavior of Rotarycraft or anything like that.

Changing recipes counts as changing behavior, and I have said numerous times before why these sorts of changes and/or skips are so much of a headache for me.

seriously? someone did that?

Yes, though fortunately she never found out about it...that would have exploded in my face. You were there to see when I told a story about a coworker trying the same, to pair me with another coworker IRL, which resulted in her threatening to report me to HR, right?