I read some of the mean anti-Reika comments and reposted to this thread and its very terrible and childish behavior and I am certain people are going out of their way to annoy him intentionally. And I am certain that these new rules are only going to further fuel these attacks. This is just a symptom of an enormous social problem with young people that I dont see any hope of ever being solved by any means. The only thing you can do is try to is not get anyone angry enough to go after me personally.
RC/ReC/ElC/CC Policy Changes
- Thread starter Reika
- Start date
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Or just not give a shit about what some plebe on the internet thinks.
Anyone who has a poor opinion of me is clearly a poor judge of character and my intellectual inferior. Why should I care what that person thinks.
I am fairly sure that this is not the case, and you would only have to contact Reika if you made a change, or if you are starting a new pack. You are not expected to inform Reika about updates.
Yeah I agree there but when I say personal I mean like intruding into your social life, threats of murder and such. Theres a lot of little assholes out there willing to go to that extreme, sometimes they are very intelligent and its often hard to tell who is being serious. So I feel for Reika but I think this new set of rules will forever haunt him and motivate the trolls, the liars and the crazies to keep up the pressure til he quits modding. Maybe he should just make the mods SSP only.
Reika I do not hate you. You are the most in-touch with the community modder I know of and I love that. I like that you speak your mind. Your mods are interesting and really unique and your multiblocks are freaking awesome.
If this were just a bunch of idiot kids, I would not care about them as much as I do. The problem is, many of them are not. Many of the most vitriolic and hostile people towards me are adults - some will explicitly mention spouses, children, and jobs - and many are mod developers, streamers, pack makers, and so on. The problem is that even adults, and often ones supposed to positively represent the community at that, act the same way. Often times they will be a little more careful with word choice to avoid post removal or getting banned, but the connotations remain the same and, as before, when it comes to private conversation, or conversation with less moderation, things often get rather more strongly phrased.
And then we get this from less than 6 hours ago:
And liked by @SynfulChaot, meaning two people, at least one of which is an adult (and I strongly suspect both are), and both with good standing, share the sentiment and feel safe openly saying it.
More often, however, people with some standing do not come to me directly. They start using their power to influence their followers, to get them to mob me and drown me in a torrent of abuse. I know of three mod developers, two streamers, and five pack devs - all but one of which (one of the streamers) are well-respected members here - who have done - and in some cases still continue to do - that. Case in point: The former RR leads (in particular Velocitan) used to do this, and the rumors they deliberately started still persist two years later to the point where it forms the foundation of roughly half of the vitriol I currently get. Go to any reddit thread, including the currently active ones about this policy change, "why no RotaryCraft", or RotaryFlux, and you will find dozens of often-aggressive posts all going back to rumors about crashing with Minetweaker, rumors about my rationale for the rules I have, rumors about the performance my mods get, and so on. And then look at all those people using those as a basis to say things like "good thing I won't touch RotaryCraft and tell everyone on my server to do the same" or "no wonder noone likes Reika" or "can we get Reika permanently barred from the community?".
...?
The tools and abilities offered by Rotary/ChromatiCraft eclipse most other mods in terms of how powerful - or, if misused, how destructive - they are. No pack, short of removing the items entirely, can change that, meaning that the mods will be among the most powerful, and thus why breaking them is more dangerous than something like making endgame ThaumCraft available.
Few other mods are as complex; GT is the example everyone always goes to, and TC sort of compares, but is largely exempt from the "taking changes as native behavior" issue. Also, again, because of the power level disparity, breaking RC/CC/etc have much more severe consequences, often world-killing.
Under the new rules, that user could have come to me and requested "I want to replace bedrock ingots with compressed cobble in all recipes, because bedrock is too easy". Whereupon I would say two things. One, "have you tried?" - because most people who phrase things like that have not - and two "that will actually make things easier, not harder", and explain why. If he is reasonable, he will then back off from wanting to make that change, realizing that he is not going to get the result he wants. If he is not, and that guy certainly was not, he would probably make the change anyway and then whine at me when his server implodes.
I wish I could give more than one like.
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Why on earth are you question-marking this? You even say "most other." This doesn't even need qualifying because you're already pointing out that your mods aren't necessarily the absolute pinnacle of modding complexity.
"In most packs" means exactly that. At the extreme end of plausibility, if I want to, I can have a pack where a vanilla crafting table is more complex to make than a ReactorCraft Fusion Reactor. I'm not suggesting that this is likely or common, the point is that the policies in place assume that we're making packs like we did three years ago, when we were limited to using mods precisely how they were provided.
That's no longer the case, and as a result the packs we've seen have absolutely exploded in diversity and creativity. Some modders may still try to hold onto the older days of what-you-see-is-what-you-get, but as with all things, if there's a strong enough desire for a thing in the modding community, people will make it happen.
Its just a matter of which modders go with the flow and which drown trying to fight it.
I am not talking about complexity. I am talking about power. Show me how you can use TE, ThaumCraft, Twilight Forest, Blood Magic, Forestry, RailCraft (or even GT, come to think of it) to the scale RC/CC allow, things like wiping out entire forests with a couple swings of an axe, shifting entire sections of terrain around as a piece, killing any mob in the game in a single hit - and depending on the means, possibly leaving a giant flaming crater in its wake -, accelerating machines to 256x the original speed, turning 40 chunks into a sea of lava, wiping out an entire player's base with a single machine, or sending lightning bolts that wipe out more blocks than a fission reactor explosion.
I do have some code-level enforcement for the most sensitive of things, like the bedrock ingots. It is arguably the most controversial element of my rules!
Also, that very enforcement breaks the OreDict circumvention you explained.
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I run a custom pack for a server, and I found that Reika has been very responsive to all my queries and I had no problem with any of his terms because I wasn't trying to change his mod to suit my tastes. Later when I did want to make a full removal of flight options, I contacted him to ask if we could have a config option instead of Minetweaking or Baniteming the jetpacks. He added a config option in the next version after confirming I wasn't trying to sell jetpacks for money on the server. I thought it was perfectly reasonable.
I don't see why RoC couldn't be in another kitchen sink pack, aside from Reika's experiences with FTB Monster. Those are the packs least likely to try and balance or tweak anything, they just throw everything together and if it works ship it. I was introduced to RoC in Monster and loved it! Most of the tweaking I hear about is for themed packs where RoC really may not fit anyway.
Everyone hates documentation, or asking permission.
Uwah!
Darn it. My heart jumped when I saw news of this on the reddit. I wanted to do a little happy-dance in the middle of a crowded street car. I would finally possibly get RotaryCraft in a non-kitchen-sink pack! Something actually cohesive and interesting I could enjoy playing, in a Crash Landing/Regrowth/Etc style! I was always stymied from playing RotaryCraft by the fact that it just can't reasonably be slotted into packs that I spend time on, and I would be bored out of my mind playing it just on top of Vanilla.
But, no. I don't think I'll be getting that. My sadness is... rather epic.
It's not even the restrictions. It's the vetting process that encourages kitchen sinks and discourages themed packs. Someone with an idea for a great, fresh, well-meshed pack is probably going to take one look at that license and nope the heck off, figuring a battle-of-creative-will or some kind of lengthy bureaucratic style red tape process is not worth the time or effort. And poor Lumie will be left without cool spinning gears, possibly forever. Looking from the outside in. Double darn it. I have been waiting to get my grubby mitts on RC for years.
Darnitdarnitdarnitdarnitdamnit.
It's a good change, in the right direction from the previous I'llCutYouSoBadYou'llWishIDidn'tCutYouSoBad agreement. But don't forsee it meaning RC reaches my little niche of the modded Minecraft playerbase. This is one of those times where I hope I end up epically wrong. I'm just doubting it.
It's not hard to get permission to use. So he asked to verify changes to the items that could affect balance.
There is a distinct sense of entitlement I see frequently on the forums. Mod and mod pack authors, and even small server operators, do it because they enjoy producing content and playing these games. When the user fails to appreciate the time and effort that goes into producing the content, or respect the author, it's quite shameful because they got the benefit for free. Bite the hand that makes your favorite content.
I still appreciate the efforts, and I don't believe Reika is a drama queen or a paranoid seeing many of these forum posts. What I do think he's trying to do is make very clear rules about the use of his mod so he can justify his time supporting those users who respect his work. I don't know how he keeps up with it all, much less the negativity and vitrol. I'm glad he does though.
That's fine, but the comments you're replying to aren't. I said "In most packs" directly as a response to the complexity comment.
That said, its still irrelevant. In my pack called All Players Are Gods*, I want people causing all that imbalanced havoc on day one. My choices are to leverage an existing mod and tweak it, clone an existing mod and tweak it, or bitch and complain.
These are the options in preferable order.
* No, people, this is not a thing.
Celestialphoenix
Too Much Free Time
To be blunt; the option to use someone else's work [mod] in your own project [modpack] is a luxury that you have the privilege to use, not some service you're entitled to. Devs don't have to allow redistribution if they choose; that's why we ask for permission in the first place.
Demanding that every mod must adopt open permissions (which is what's being strongly hinted in certain posts) is a perversion of this very principle.
Demanding that every mod must adopt open permissions (which is what's being strongly hinted in certain posts) is a perversion of this very principle.
Obviously we all like it when devs say yes; which is kind of what Reika's new rules are- an additional way for him to say yes to people he'd otherwise have to say no to.
If you came to me, and said you wanted that result, then you would have a much easier time getting permission for it. But face the reality: Practically noone wants that, so when someone is making changes that cause that end result, it can be safely assumed they are not going to like the effects of their changes.
Honestly, it sounds like you keep assuming pack devs would come to me just saying "I want to change X" and never provide any sort of justification. Frankly, if someone is making a highly nonstandard pack and they do not mention that, I have reservations about their competency to begin with, especially if they fail to mention anything when specifically requesting changes.
Also, another example of the kind of thing I meant earlier. This is happening continuously.
I don't actually expect you to keep track of everyone's individual stance on this thread. I'll just remind you that I understand that. I'm not making an effort to shit on your policy, I'm only disputing various minor points that are raised along the way to justify parts of it. I do this because I get -- and most people get -- that the justification behind the policy is difficult to support on logical or ethical grounds.
In this case, a player wants to wreak havoc on the balance of his or her modpack. You have a policy requiring them to explain this to you. Fine, that's your call. I'm satisfied that this is still much better than it was a month ago, and thanks for reminding me. However, the justification for it -- in this case that players should be prevented on the grounds that they're not going to like the effects of their changes -- is not well thought out. Its their business.
Fortunately your policies don't really require justification. That's your business. I just worry about people deciding that an OpenDragon API might be a positive contribution to the community.
I 100% agree with this stance. As I alluded to above however, what I worry about is modders being elbowed out of their own niche.
If people WANT that open mod badly, they'll make it happen. If fifty thousand players want fully tweakable RotaryCraft, there's absolutely no ethical grounds to stop them from making one. There's no scenario where a modded minecraft creativity idea cannot be made to happen.
That privilege is a sword with blades at both ends, which is why I support diplomatically nudging these projects into a more open direction and don't consider myself abusing a privilege.
Because such a large shift in the experience of the mod impacts the expectation and reputation of the mod maker.
Remember, the mod and how it is used IS his reputation.
and these:
So when this happens, or this:
http://i.imgur.com/ItMuSuk.png
You get unlimited devastation and destruction.
Just like that. Just because so often people have no clue about the progression. They make changes that destroy servers, and then point to RC, and RC becomes known as that mod that destroys servers. Directly harmful to Reika's reputation.
Take a moment and think about how bad the side effects can be...
So, given how bad things can get, what is there that can be done?
That idea? Give a list of the things which shouldn't be modified for progression breaking reasons. That list is actually pretty small. The bedrock breaker, all the native engines, the fermenter, the blast furnace, the grinder, the extractor, the furnace heater, tungsten, bedrock dust, and jet fuel. That's pretty much the extent of "don't touch this without really good reasons and being very careful or you're GOING to break the mod", right? Basically everything else could be disabled in most packs without breaking All The Things. I wouldn't suggest disabling the Dew Point Aggregator if you're planning on ReactorCraft either
I think a little more needs to be done. Charting out the power tiers, listing the products of each tier, showing what's required to progress to each point. Demonstrating with examples that a change like the removal of the extractor (listed on the website in the link) breaks 70% of the mod.
Offhand, each of the big no items could use an explenation and examples. Show just how bad things can be if bedrockium is bedrock ingots. Show how bad things can be if jetfuel is BC FUEL. Show how important the sinctured tungstun is as a gating mechangism.
Don't just tell. Show.
That's the bedrock axe
... what does that?
Well, TiC can be overpowered, and I've seen massive weapons elsewhere ... but a giant flaming crater???
Your machines? Sure. Friction heater on a furnace? Ok. Anything else??
?? What does that?
... An overloaded bedrock coil?
???
Ok, some of these I don't have the slightest idea how to do, or even that you could do.
I think you have misunderstood me. The whole point of the coming-to-me process - aside from me being able to maintain the lists - is so that I can weed out people doing things they only think they want. If you make it clear you do intend to make a crazy pack, then that is a non-issue, provided you also agree that I am not responsible for any damages.
Half of those are ChromatiCraft, including the World Shift and Bolt of Power abilities and the Tile Accelerators. As for the giant flaming crater, load a few explosive shells in the railgun and stand back. You might also want to try aiming it at someone's base, or the Sonic Borer, or the EMP...
Celestialphoenix
Too Much Free Time
The railgun and/or laser gun -if sufficiently powered- could do that.
and ninja'd by a dragon.
While I agree with that last point, I wouldn't say it's ethically acceptable to ignore and override someone's licence by wholesale copying their work and publishing the result. I also think it's somewhat hypocritical if the result is then used by a community that prides itself on respecting those same permissions and licences.
Agreed. If such things become generally accepted, any claim this community has that it respects the mod devs becomes an obvious facade, and the real mentality of "GIMME GIMME GIMME! NO GIVE? F YOU" becomes obvious.
Obviously not everyone subscribes to it, but a large fraction do, and if the major launchers/pack teams and similar start using mod ripoffs, they will become part of it.
This is a good question, actually. Can someone name one other mod where the reputation of the mod or the author has been tarnished by people modifying the mod?