RC/ReC/ElC/CC Policy Changes

[1M Industries]

Hmm, interesting topic, a note to all: This is tricky territory, tread carefully ​

Yeah, this could rapidly head into bad territory due to the sheer amount of hate that Reika attracts for no good reason. And if someone wants proof that Reika attracts an inordinate amount of hate, I can PM you some of the stuff from the issue tracker and some of the other stuff as well.

 

[Reika]

Hmm, interesting topic, a note to all: This is tricky territory, tread carefully ​

As long as the discussion remains civil, I see no reason not to allow it to continue. Personally, I am even fine with it getting heated, so long as it remains within the forum rules.

 

[VapourDrive]

As long as the discussion remains civil, I see no reason not to allow it to continue. Personally, I am even fine with it getting heated, so long as it remains within the forum rules.

I'm definitely not saying it shouldn't continue, it's a good thing to discuss, my mod post was a helpful reminder that moderators do watch things and I personally don't like handing out warnings so I try to stay ahead of "the game".
*Personally* I hope you are open to listen to proposals from people that aren't quite as conservative in their tweaking, can lead to cool things. Either way I'm truly glad you're putting the effort into this.

 

[psp]

........Seriously? This reminds me of a discussion from a few days ago, where someone said "noo mod that tells me what I can and cannot do with their mod is going to be in my packs"; though they in fact misspoke to only mean things like gameplay-type rules, someone else came forward and openly said that I had no right to stop anyone from doing anything, and explicitly mentioned my forbidding selling mod content as "sticking [my] nose where it doesn't belong". Are you also of that sort of opinion?

That could be interpreted in many ways.
I support you in most things Reika.

Just keep this in mind:
There is literally nothing anyone could do to stop me from robbing my neighbors house. If I decide to rob it, I can. No-one can stop me. No-one. If I choose to break and enter someones house, I can. I can do anything I want, anyone can do what they want. It is on the high side of impossible to stop someone from doing something. Just keep this in mind. If someone wants to do something, they will do it.

The saying, "Where there is a will, there is a way", is a two-sided sword, Reika.

 

[Pyure]

Also, the "what if everyone did this" argument does not apply.

Consider this argument carefully. By saying this you're somewhat privileging yourself. Its important to consider what would happen if all modders assume a particular policy.

This analogy is purely for my amusement, but I compare it to drivers who purchase minivans/SUVs because it gives them a clearer view over the peon drivers. But the strategy only works until they all begin doing the same thing, and then nobody has a special view anymore.

Its not a 100% airtight analogy but an SUV blocked my left-hand turn with his hugenormous vehicle today so I'm bitter.

 

[Reika]

That could be interpreted in many ways.
I support you in most things Reika.

Just keep this in mind:
There is literally nothing anyone could do to stop me from robbing my neighbors house. If I decide to rob it, I can. No-one can stop me. No-one. If I choose to break and enter someones house, I can. I can do anything I want, anyone can do what they want. It is on the high side of impossible to stop someone from doing something. Just keep this in mind. If someone wants to do something, they will do it.

The saying, "Where there is a will, there is a way", is a two-sided sword, Reika.

Just because enforcement is difficult does not mean disallowing it is futile. As the fact you will promptly go to jail will demonstrate.

Consider this argument carefully. By saying this you're somewhat privileging yourself. Its important to consider what would happen if all modders assume a particular policy.

This is only a valid argument if either there is a reasonable chance the majority would take such an action, or where even a handful doing it becomes significantly detrimental. As it currently is, I see the usage in this instance as more like "what if everyone else had special models for all their blocks? The game would lag horrifically"/"What if everyone else added overworld structure worldgen to their mod? The world would be a mess"/"What if every other mod added a 5x ore multiplier, it would be so OP" - i.e. very misleading.

Its not a 100% airtight analogy but an SUV blocked my left-hand turn with his hugenormous vehicle today so I'm bitter.

Just remember the like 40% gas taxes here and have the last laugh.

 

[Iskandar]

No. Just no. For one, as we have discussed before, much of, possibly even most, of this community hates the very things my mods are designed to be, and the only way to make them happy is to totally destroy it and remake it as another RF-powered magic box clone. Secondly, much of this community also wants to do things like sell mod content. Thirdly, much of this community hates me, and will jump at the chance to cause me more headaches unless I prevent it.

What? No, seriously, WHAT?

Most of the community wants to sell mod content? WHAT? Are you HIGH?! No. Have you SEEN what happens when someone turns up a server that is selling mod content? They tend to get piled on. Now, if you leveled this at, say Technic, who just don't seem to care, but FTB? There is being cautious and just being wrong-headed paranoid.

And we don't hate you. Well, not that I've seen. And we don't want to do bad things to your mods. The biggest problem is that very few of us knows that much about your mods, mostly because mod pack devs, quite rightly, don't want to get involved of all this mess.

Let me break this down to you, as a mod pack dev. I'm ALWAYS on the look out for amazing new mods with different mechanics. Trying to give players a fun and interesting experience is tough if you always stick to the same old mods, you have to shake it up a bit, find a new tack, a new theme. But I'm dealing with 50+ mods at once and there is only so much hassle I'm willing to go through for any one mod. So, let's say, realistic example, if I am trying to choose a relatively unknown magic type mod for my new pack. I could choose Aura Cascade or Chromaticraft. Aura Cascade has open permissions...Chromaticraft? Wow, that is a LOT of hoops I gotta jump through. Eh, maybe next time.

And THAT is what happens, and THAT is why no one really uses your mods.

 

[Pyure]

This is only a valid argument if either there is a reasonable chance the majority would take such an action, or where even a handful doing it becomes significantly detrimental. As it currently is, I see the usage in this instance as more like "what if everyone else had special models for all their blocks? The game would lag horrifically"/"What if everyone else added overworld structure worldgen to their mod? The would would be a mess"/"What if every other mod added a 5x ore multiplier, it would be so OP" - i.e. very misleading.

Actually, its valid regardless if the majority could take an action but don't for their own reasons (e.g potentially reasons of personal ethics)

Just remember the like 40% gas taxes here and have the last laugh.

Small consolation but I take what I can get...

 

[Reika]

Most of the community wants to sell mod content? WHAT? Are you HIGH?! No. Have you SEEN what happens when someone turns up a server that is selling mod content? They tend to get piled on. Now, if you leveled this at, say Technic, who just don't seem to care, but FTB? There is being cautious and just being wrong-headed paranoid.

I never specified FTB. I mean the community as a single entity. FTB, Technic, private servers, Curse, me, a particularly talented cat... ( )

Depressing as it is, it really does seem, based on my experiences, that a large fraction, possibly most, of this whole community is like "lol f u" to rules against things like that and will happily go about breaking them right up to the point they end up paying for it.

And we don't hate you. Well, not that I've seen. And we don't want to do bad things to your mods. The biggest problem is that very few of us knows that much about your mods, mostly because mod pack devs, quite rightly, don't want to get involved of all this mess.

You may not (fortunately). Many, many do. Just look at what happens on reddit or the not-very-long-lived posts on my forum threads. There are hundreds of instances over the last year.

 

[1M Industries]

I am going to create a small website that will serve as a complete compilation of the hate that Reika gets later, but for now:

Spoiler

Sad thing is, this is very mild stuff. On a scale of 1 to 10, this is about a 3. Think of what a ten would be, now think about that statement, because that directly says that some people do directly hate Reika, and for no good reason.
EDIT: This is close to a..7?

Spoiler

 

[Iskandar]

I never specified FTB. I mean the community as a single entity. FTB, Technic, private servers, Curse, me, a particularly talented cat... ( )

Depressing as it is, it really does seem, based on my experiences, that a large fraction, possibly most, of this whole community is like "lol f u" to rules against things like that and will happily go about breaking them right up to the point they end up paying for it.


You may not (fortunately). Many, many do. Just look at what happens on reddit or the not-very-long-lived posts on my forum threads.

Shrug. I've fought against the same thing in terms of selling mod content. I quit Technic because of their attitude, actually.

There are servers out there who break the rules, yeah, but they aren't the majority. And it isn't like any rules here effect server operators. They just use the modpacks us devs create after we jump through the hoops. Making more hoops won't change a thing on that end of things.

As far as the hate goes, look at the Gregtech community. There is a fair amount of hate that goes that way, but there is also a fairly sizable community that swears by it. I think there is a niche for you as well, given a chance.

 

[Iskandar]

I am going to create a small website that will serve as a complete compilation of the hate that Reika gets later, but for now:

Spoiler

Sad thing is, this is very mild stuff. On a scale of 1 to 10, this is about a 3. Think of what a ten would be, now think about that statement, because that directly says that some people do directly hate Reika, and for no good reason.

Gregtech gets as much hate, if not more, does he not?

 

[Pyure]

Gregtech gets as much hate, if not more, does he not?

He used to when his design policies crossed into pack designer territory (effectively producing total conversion mods). Lately? Not so much.

 

[1M Industries]

Gregtech gets as much hate, if not more, does he not?

Yes. This was in response to you saying:

And we don't hate you. Well, not that I've seen. And we don't want to do bad things to your mods.

Given the chance, people like these:

Spoiler

and these:

Would have a chance to do whatever they want, which, as you can see, is not always a good thing. See what I mean?
EDIT: This will be the last I say on this topic, but this page has under 5% of the stuff that Reika has ever gotten, and even then most of the more...inflammatory stuff, such as personal insults, politically charged posts, etc, has been trimmed off: https://sites.google.com/site/reikasminecraft/things-not-to-say

 

[Reika]

Given the chance, people like these:

Would have a chance to do whatever they want, which, as you can see, is not always a good thing. See what I mean?

I was more thinking of this guy:

Spoiler

As far as the hate goes, look at the Gregtech community. There is a fair amount of hate that goes that way, but there is also a fairly sizable community that swears by it

For one, I do not see Greg getting anywhere near the hate I do, at least not anymore. Also, he largely pulled away from the community. I do not want to do that.

I think there is a niche for you as well, given a chance.

I am already in that niche; I want a bit more of the community to A) at least try my stuff, without having fundamentally altered it first, and B) not spaz out every time my name is mentioned.

 

[Pyure]

Given the chance, people like these:

Would have a chance to do whatever they want, which, as you can see, is not always a good thing. See what I mean?

1M, is there something in particular you mean by "whatever they want"?

I'm a bit reluctant to go through the entire screenshot rant, so I may have missed something particularly obnoxious, but the highlighted bits I saw were extremely reasonable in principal (even if clearly expressed in a teenage-angst manner.)

If users want to "mod minecraft", that's what the community is about. I mod enderio, railcraft, forestry, etc every day. I alter recipes, add things, take things away, until I have an experience that suits me. Sometimes I really need to make a pack where players can fuel their microturbine on pam's harvestcraft strawberries because that's what happens in that particular pack. I don't care about the original modders brilliant sense of balance and scaling because it doesn't suit my needs.

Most modders get this. If people want insane strawberry fuel, whatever, who cares. Reika is concerned about the complaints he'll get if that happens, but its a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the flak he gets for not allowing it.

 

[Henry Link]

I'm a small whitelist server owner/operator. As such I just wanted to through my two cents in. I've seen some of the forum posts and pictures for the mods Reika produces. I like the concepts behind what has been made. But to date, I haven't played a single one of Reika's mods. Because on my small server I stick to what I know people can easily download and use. So I always run main stream packs like Direwolf20, Infinity, Agrarian Skies, etc. To me it is just sad that we can't find a balance between what the pack developers and Reika want so these mods can make their way into mainstream packs.

 

[1M Industries]

1M, is there something in particular you mean by "whatever they want"?

I'm a bit reluctant to go through the entire screenshot rant, so I may have missed something particularly obnoxious, but the highlighted bits I saw were extremely reasonable in principal (even if clearly expressed in a teenage-angst manner.)

If users want to "mod minecraft", that's what the community is about. I mod enderio, railcraft, forestry, etc every day. I alter recipes, add things, take things away, until I have an experience that suits me. Sometimes I really need to make a pack where players can fuel their microturbine on pam's harvestcraft strawberries because that's what happens in that particular pack. I don't care about the original modders brilliant sense of balance and scaling because it doesn't suit my needs.

Most modders get this. If people want insane strawberry fuel, whatever, who cares. Reika is concerned about the complaints he'll get if that happens, but its a tiny drop in the ocean compared to the flak he gets for not allowing it.

It is the upper photo mainly, with the lower one being the guy who wanted Extrautils bedrockium to be equal to bedrock ingots. See the issue?

 

[pixlepix]

And you are simply and completely wrong. How do I know? It has already happened. More than once. And these were people with name recognition on a level that I cannot even mention them here or this thread will be locked because of a drama war.

But it's not like those people will come to you for permission anyway. Either way, they violate your rules.

 

[Reika]

But it's not like those people will come to you for permission anyway. Either way, they violate your rules.

No, because I can stop them, partly through in-code enforcement protecting a few sensitive recipes, partly through making packs remove my stuff (or having launcher admins do it), that sort of thing.


Also, on the topic of hate, I mean stuff like this (warning, somewhat vulgar language):
http://i.imgur.com/SOLggGM.png

or this:
http://imgur.com/a/DCPtJ

Now imagine 18 months of this.

I'm a small whitelist server owner/operator. As such I just wanted to through my two cents in. I've seen some of the forum posts and pictures for the mods Reika produces. I like the concepts behind what has been made. But to date, I haven't played a single one of Reika's mods. Because on my small server I stick to what I know people can easily download and use. So I always run main stream packs like Direwolf20, Infinity, Agrarian Skies, etc. To me it is just sad that we can't find a balance between what the pack developers and Reika want so these mods can make their way into mainstream packs.

Unfortunately, you then will likely never get to try them, and not because of the rules, but because the mods are sufficiently niche-interest that the general community and packs for it will never really include them.