Poll: RFTools Dimension Builder Penalties

[Bruigaar]

The reason instability is in mystcraft is because when you can tailor a dimension it unbalances ever aspect of the game . Past ,present , or future!
The instability makes it so the more unbalanced the age the less you wanna be in it. And in some cases it makes it so your machines have a breaking point so you can't just go in and set-up an automation to do the work for you.
The only step around not having stability issues is having a timer of sorts set on the broken dimensions. Make a battery that is the only thing that can power the dimension block that cannot charge while the dimension is in use. And have the dimensions power cost per tick correlate with its size and makeup. So say your battery holds 1 million RF and you use it to power a 9x9 chunk dimension of cobblestone. That dimension costs 10 RF per tick so you could keep it open for X ticks. The bigger the dimension the higher base RF/tick cost. And the ores as well as their density could be modifiers for that tick cost. So the bigger and more dense a dimension is the less time you can interact with it. And when it is not powered nothing in it works so you cannot automate things in it.

Another thing that would be awesome for void ages is to make a full sized void age cost only 10 RF per tick. Because you can never get anything out of a void age you have too put stuff in them. Plus if the age isn't open nothing in it works anyways.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hambeau]

My concept is that a dimension requires a small amount of power to maintain... as long as you aren't importing or exporting resources. I suggest a "sliding-scale" of power costs dependent on the material type and quantity being transported in either direction.

If someone wants to destroy a dimension wholesale for material resources they should only be transferrable at retail costs

 

[Henry Link]

@Bruigaar I don't buy into your arguments. I am a server own that doesn't believe in banning items or not letting players play the pack as it was intended. To that end about 1/2 of my player base prefer to live in void ages. In addition, I prefer my players to tear up a digger age rather then leave random gaping wholes in the overworld. So I don't agree with you about mystcraft unbalancing the game. Hell modded minecraft by its nature unbalances the game. My main dislike for Mystcraft is the inability to create stable worlds because of the random garbage that gets added plus the instabilities. I've created perfect books that have had all of the needed symbols in the correct order to make good ages. Sun, moon, weather, terrain, etc. and wind up with instability because mystcraft added a random unstable block like diamond. When I go back and look at the data file for the age I specified about 55 pages. Mystcraft randomly added 60 more pages to that book. Stuff like a second sun that I didn't want even though I specified one sun.

 

[Someone Else 37]

I'm not sure how much I like kicking people out of the dimension because it ran out of power... but then again, it would be a good way to keep people from using Mystcraft books to get in and out of your dimensions.

Here's what I could see happening:
1. You collect a bunch of dimlets, combine them, and run the resulting Dimension Tab through a couple more machines.
2. You place this fully-processed Dimension Tab into some sort of portal.
3. You feed the portal a huge amount of energy, and eventually it opens. This would, of course, take much more energy for a dimension with diamond ore everywhere than for a void age.
4. You have to keep supplying the portal energy to keep it from closing. The initial burst would take an amount of energy equivalent to a few hours of continuous operation.
5. If the portal ever runs out of energy, it closes, kicks all players out of the dimension, and you'd have to start over from step 3- supply several hours' worth of RF.
6. The portal has a smallish RF buffer and can be powered from either side. This way, if your Overworld base isn't chunkloaded, you can still set up an energy cell inside the dimension before you get kicked back out. The more complex the dimension, the less time you have.
7. If you're finished with a dimension, you can put the dimension tab into a machine that will return all your dimlets and make a note in the log that the dimension is now inaccessible. Perhaps you could also make an admin command that actually deletes the inaccessible dimensions, and/or keep a list of inaccessible dimensions in some file somewhere, so that the admin doesn't have to look through several weeks' worth of logs.

 

[McJty]

I'm not sure how much I like kicking people out of the dimension because it ran out of power... but then again, it would be a good way to keep people from using Mystcraft books to get in and out of your dimensions.

Here's what I could see happening:
1. You collect a bunch of dimlets, combine them, and run the resulting Dimension Tab through a couple more machines.
2. You place this fully-processed Dimension Tab into some sort of portal.
3. You feed the portal a huge amount of energy, and eventually it opens. This would, of course, take much more energy for a dimension with diamond ore everywhere than for a void age.
4. You have to keep supplying the portal energy to keep it from closing. The initial burst would take an amount of energy equivalent to a few hours of continuous operation.
5. If the portal ever runs out of energy, it closes, kicks all players out of the dimension, and you'd have to start over from step 3- supply several hours' worth of RF.
6. The portal has a smallish RF buffer and can be powered from either side. This way, if your Overworld base isn't chunkloaded, you can still set up an energy cell inside the dimension before you get kicked back out. The more complex the dimension, the less time you have.
7. If you're finished with a dimension, you can put the dimension tab into a machine that will return all your dimlets and make a note in the log that the dimension is now inaccessible. Perhaps you could also make an admin command that actually deletes the inaccessible dimensions, and/or keep a list of inaccessible dimensions in some file somewhere, so that the admin doesn't have to look through several weeks' worth of logs.

That's practically how I see it working. You're pretty close

 

[McJty]

Anyway, for all you people worried about balance, I'm a big fan of configurability (which you can see if you open the current rftools.cfg). I will make almost everything in this new system also configurability. That includes (but is not limited too):

• Rarity of the dimlets
• Additional energy usage that every dimlet adds to the total cost (both creation as well as maintenance)
• Base energy usage for creating any dimension (even void)
• Additional time needed for creation of a dimension for every type of dimlet

So if you like OP you can disable all energy costs and get free dimensions.
If you like it hard you can go the other way too.

By default I want to make it as balanced as I can.

 

[egor66]

Inside a day on most any server that has it I could have a mid to large big reactor running full tilt, I just dont see how power usage is a balancing agent.

 

[McJty]

Inside a day on most any server that has it I could have a mid to large big reactor running full tilt, I just dont see how power usage is a balancing agent.

Not everyone plays with Big Reactors or other easy ways to generate power. In my current mod pack I only have RotaryCraft + ReactorCraft as big power producers. Not as easy in this aspect.

Also it will most certainly move usage of my dimension builder mod into later game while Mystcraft is (relatively) easy to start with even in the beginning. Just need some ink, leather, paper and wood and you can basically get going.

 

[McJty]

Some new progress. Here is a screenshot of the GUI for the third machine needed for the dimension building. This machine is responsible for actually creating the dimension itself AND also for maintaining power to it. In addition it will also allow the teleportation system to hook into this so that you can actually get into the destination dimension. Here is the GUI showing a 'dimension tab' item which corresponds to a dimension and a dimension that is fully build:

 

[Senseidragon]

The only major concern I have is the power part. The idea of maintaining a portal to another dimension on just a couple survival generators seems really low, even for just a void age. I don't think it should be a nuclear reactor level requirement, but something in at least the hundreds of RF/t.

Also, build chunk-loading into the portal device. While it is powered, it also acts as a chunk loader, keeping the overworld chunk (and thus the portal) open. When the machine loses power, players are ejected and the dimension is unloaded, and the portal device no longer functions as a chunk loader, so it would be more server-friendly.

Maybe stick with a simpler version of dimension generation -- not sure having multiple suns, pink clouds, purple grass and tendrils all over the place is really a huge benefit, at least in early development.

Good idea though, I'm certainly interested in watching this progress more.

 

[McJty]

Well I don't see how a void dimension is giving a lot of benefits to the player? It is just a place to build with less lag then in the overworld. You can't get any ores there nor any other materials.

The *only* reason I like to use void ages in my plays is typically for performance reasons. Otherwise I would simply use a much prettier normal dimension or a far away place in the overworld even.

I'm not sure yet about the chunkloader idea for a few reasons. First having multiple chunkloaders at the same spot can possibly create problems and perhaps people want to put their own chunkloaders there in any case. Secondly server admins like to control how many chunkloaders a player can have. If this block acts as 'yet another chunkloader' then that's another worry for the server admin.

This last thing brings me to another 'problem'. On servers where chunkloaders are not allowed my system as it is currently designed is not going to work very well as the player will not be able to power his dimension for very long. So I think two things should be done in any case.

• I think the dimension itself should have an internal power buffer so that even if the power provider block isn't chunk loading it should be able to run for a while. I plan to implement an item in any case that monitors how much power the dimension you are in still has so you as a player will be able to monitor how much time you have left in that case.
• Perhaps I should also provide a way to actually power the other dimension from the dimension itself.

Ideas?

Edit: and yes, I plan to start small. The very first dimension that I will create will be a void one

 

[LivingAngryCheese]

I think that having it instantly kill you is too harsh, but getting just kicked out is not dramatic enough.
My idea is that when you run out of power, you are transported to a clone dimension, where the sides are slowly disappearing, in the center will be a portal home, and it would be a race against time to get there before you fall into the void.

 

[Henry Link]

@McJty Let me know when you are ready to test this. I'll create a DW20 1.7.10 server for this and remove Mystcraft and insert this mod. I have a small player base and I know a couple of them would be interested in trying it out. I also host a TS3 server if needed as well.

 

[McJty]

I think that having it instantly kill you is too harsh, but getting just kicked out is not dramatic enough.
My idea is that when you run out of power, you are transported to a clone dimension, where the sides are slowly disappearing, in the center will be a portal home, and it would be a race against time to get there before you fall into the void.

Hmm interesting. And what would happen if you run out of time there?

Anyway, I plan to make this configurable anyway (like everything I make ). Basically I see three options:

1. Kill the player in the other dimensions (items, gravestone, whatever will be left there). Player respawns in his normal spawn point.
2. Respawn the player to his spawn point but apply a bad effect (damage + wither + whatever) for some time. i.e. this simulates the idea of being desoriented by forcibly being kicked out of your dimension.
3. Just respawn the player to his spawn point.

 

[McJty]

@McJty Let me know when you are ready to test this. I'll create a DW20 1.7.10 server for this and remove Mystcraft and insert this mod. I have a small player base and I know a couple of them would be interested in trying it out. I also host a TS3 server if needed as well.

The base machines are ready but I haven't actually started with the most complicated part yet and that's the actual creation of the dimensions. It is complicated for me since I haven't done this before so I have to learn a bit here.
I hope to have a preliminary testable version in perhaps a week or so from now.

BTW, no need to remove Mystcraft. Mystcraft and RFTools should not conflict with regards to dimensions. And if they do then that's a bug I need to fix.

 

[LivingAngryCheese]

Hmm interesting. And what would happen if you run out of time there?

You would fall into the void because it all disappeared

 

[imPlayin]

My Ideas:

Really simple dimension like Void shouldn't require any power unless they have special things in them like eternal day, pink sky or 20 suns all going at different speeds.
You should be abled to modify dimension details like Suns or color after creation.
If a dimension loses power it gets "broken" and it needs too be "repaired": When you enter it the next time, it will use a HUGE amount of power (comparable to the power required on creation).

 

[Overmorrow]

Perhaps individual dimensions could be limited in side, and surrounded by bedrock (similar to the Dimensional Doors mod's dimensions), but with randomly generated terrain. That way you could get additional dimensions to mine and whatnot using the biomes you need (Need quartz but don't want to go to the nether? Just generate a few chunks of it in one of these dimensions!).

Another option, which I think would be nice fitted with the above idea and generated terrain dimensions, is that the RF cost will be dependant on which blocks you have in the biome. Perhaps something like Equivalent Exchange's EMC to calculate the costs, if you have a bunch of diamond ore blocks in the world then it'd take more power to keep the dimension running, so you'd have to be fast when mining in it.

 

[Someone Else 37]

Well I don't see how a void dimension is giving a lot of benefits to the player? It is just a place to build with less lag then in the overworld. You can't get any ores there nor any other materials.

The *only* reason I like to use void ages in my plays is typically for performance reasons. Otherwise I would simply use a much prettier normal dimension or a far away place in the overworld even.

I'm not sure yet about the chunkloader idea for a few reasons. First having multiple chunkloaders at the same spot can possibly create problems and perhaps people want to put their own chunkloaders there in any case. Secondly server admins like to control how many chunkloaders a player can have. If this block acts as 'yet another chunkloader' then that's another worry for the server admin.

This last thing brings me to another 'problem'. On servers where chunkloaders are not allowed my system as it is currently designed is not going to work very well as the player will not be able to power his dimension for very long. So I think two things should be done in any case.

• I think the dimension itself should have an internal power buffer so that even if the power provider block isn't chunk loading it should be able to run for a while. I plan to implement an item in any case that monitors how much power the dimension you are in still has so you as a player will be able to monitor how much time you have left in that case.
• Perhaps I should also provide a way to actually power the other dimension from the dimension itself.

Ideas?

Edit: and yes, I plan to start small. The very first dimension that I will create will be a void one

Void worlds make it easier to see things that normally spawn underground, like Buildcraft oil wells, which Mystcraft hadn't managed to suppress last I checked. So I think that a void world should require at least a little power, but not much.

I would say not chunkload for the reasons given, and do both of your bullet points. I think that the energy buffer should not scale with the complexity of the dimension, meaning that an early-game void world should keep itself running for several hours, while something with oceans of oil and diamonds everywhere should only last a couple seconds without chunloaded power from the Overworld.

Hmm interesting. And what would happen if you run out of time there?

Anyway, I plan to make this configurable anyway (like everything I make ). Basically I see three options:

1. Kill the player in the other dimensions (items, gravestone, whatever will be left there). Player respawns in his normal spawn point.
2. Respawn the player to his spawn point but apply a bad effect (damage + wither + whatever) for some time. i.e. this simulates the idea of being desoriented by forcibly being kicked out of your dimension.
3. Just respawn the player to his spawn point.

I'd vote #2, with Nausea for a few minutes, and maybe some damage, but not enough to kill the player (Poison, then?). After all, being instantly killed upon re-entering the Overworld would negate the effects of the nausea.

Also, suggestion: Some way to move the dimension tab into the dimension itself and close the portal from the inside without actually closing the dimension itself in the process. This would create an isolated dimension that cannot be reached form the Overworld- there's a risk that you run out of power and can never get back in because you don't have the dimension tab, but at least you're safe from griefers.

Hmm... In a dimension that's out of power, would chunkloaded automation still work? In that case, players who want to isolate themselves could build system to remove the dimension tab from the machine and move it into an enderchest if the dimension ever does go belly-up, then put it into a new portal in the Overworld to get back in.

 

[McJty]

Hmm... In a dimension that's out of power, would chunkloaded automation still work? In that case, players who want to isolate themselves could build system to remove the dimension tab from the machine and move it into an enderchest if the dimension ever does go belly-up, then put it into a new portal in the Overworld to get back in.

I don't know if I will be able to actually prevent chunkloaders from working there but the conceptual idea at least is that the dimension is simply not there (technically it is of course). So if I can disable chunkloaders then I think I will do that.