Nerfing the Nerfs!

[TheLoneWolfling]

The source of my irritation is thelonewolfing, who appeared to be trolling from my perspective.

I am not attempting to troll. That being said, me saying this is a moot point, as if you assume I'm trolling you'll just assume this post is trolling also.

The guy doesn't even know what the term nerf even means and decided to dominate the thread with ignorance, so my response was pointed at him. Nerf is associated with balancing, not bug fixes and exploit fixes.

If you want to get technical about it, "In video gaming a nerf is a change to a game that reduces the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element." (Wikipedia)

All of the changes I outlined above were nerfs, as per the definition. They all reduced the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element. I am not commenting on whether or not they were justified, I was answering the OP's question: "Which ones have you guys noticed that seemed to have nerfed for the worse?"

 

[RedBoss]

Nerf, balance, Meh. In terms of MC mods this is always going to be a point of contention. It also highlights the difficulty of mod pack compilers. With so many mods that are developed independent of each other, or only loosely affiliated via energy network compatibility, there's always going to be an issue.

KirinDave introduced an analogy of mod packs being like mix tapes. If the mods are the songs, modpack compilers are the DJ's. The configs are how the DJ mixes the mods to flow together. But every now and then, a favorite artist makes a bad song yet the DJ still puts it I to the mix for better or worse. You can either pump up the volume or skip the track.

Ultimately nerf or balance will never be universally agreed upon. But some things will be glaring. For example, how many ghast tears do you need to chop down trees? The popular answer is an axe.

 

[OmegaJasam]

I am not attempting to troll. That being said, me saying this is a moot point, as if you assume I'm trolling you'll just assume this post is trolling also.


If you want to get technical about it, "In video gaming a nerf is a change to a game that reduces the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element." (Wikipedia)

All of the changes I outlined above were nerfs, as per the definition. They all reduced the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element. I am not commenting on whether or not they were justified, I was answering the OP's question: "Which ones have you guys noticed that seemed to have nerfed for the worse?"

I'm afraid thats simply not true. You are using a overly literal interpriation of wikipedia for your definition.

• BC Builder flat-out doesn't work. - Bug
• IC2 nuclear reactor changes - Nerf
• IC2 tools no longer accept enchantments -Bug Fix
• EE3. - Not Even the same mod if your comparing to EE2. Blazerod change is a nerf.
• Forestry in general. (Biogas engines and milk, new-style farms (isn't forestry supposed to be about renewable resources?), etc.) - A combination of nerfs and feature removals. You can't take forestry as one game element, you need to break it up and compare equivalent features if they exist.
• Railcraft cart linking - (I've not heard of this one)
• Soul shards - Combining is a bugfix, new recipie is a nerf

There is a bit of leeway when a bugs been around so long that it's been used as a fature. (think old rail boosters). But you shouldn't try to stretch the definition of nerf to support your argument.
It's much easier to make your original point of there being too much of a downward trend of nurfing, especaly via making things more grindy/lucky by using things that are easily idenitfyable as nerfs then trying to argue bugs and bugs fixes are nerfs.

 

[TheLoneWolfling]

I'm afraid thats simply not true. You are using a overly literal interpriation of wikipedia for your definition.

Why? Please explain. I don't see how that quote can be interpreted in any other way.

Or, to add to that earlier quote, "Among game developers, MMORPG designers are especially likely to nerf aspects of a game in order to maintain game balance. Occasionally a new feature (such as an item, class, or skill) may be made too powerful, unfair, or too easily obtained to the extent that it unbalances the game system. This is sometimes due to an unforeseen bug or method of using or acquiring the object that was not considered by the developers."

This seems to rather explicitly include both of the bug fixes you mentioned:

• IC2 tools no longer accept enchantments - "an unforeseen method of acquiring the object that was not considered by the developers", i.e. anvil combining enchantments
• Soul shard combining - see above

As for the others:

• BC Builder flat-out doesn't work. - "Occasionally a new feature may be made too powerful to the extent that it unbalances the game system. This is sometimes due to an unforeseen bug that was not considered by the developers." Seems to fit the definition of nerf rather well.
• "EE3 - Not Even the same mod if your comparing to EE2" - would only be true if EE2 was still available. As it isn't, and EE3 is rather explicitly a continuation of EE2, EE has been nerfed. Alternatively, quoting from your response about Forestry " You can't take [it] as one game element, you need to break it up and compare equivalent features if they exist." When I compare equivalent (ha!) features from EE2 and EE3, every single one has been nerfed.
• Forestry - "You can't take forestry as one game element, you need to break it up and compare equivalent features if they exist."
  • Biogas engines and milk. "an unforeseen method of using the object that was not considered by the developers" - i.e. automilkers.
  • New-style farms - comparing equivalent features as you asked, new-style farms require non-renewable resources, cost more, have more steps to make, take more space, and require more power. (They can farm multiple items, but this thread is about nerfs not buffs)
  • What feature removals are you talking about?
• Railcraft cart linking - it used to be that Railcraft carts could be linked together and would behave effectively as though they were a bunch of non-linked minecarts for rolling friction purposes. Thy have since been nerfed so that they roll like 2 inches before stopping - it was intended as a push to use steam engines, but is still a nerf. Etho was bitten by this one at one point, IIRC.

It's much easier to make your original point of there being too much of a downward trend of nurfing, especaly via making things more grindy/lucky by using things that are easily idenitfyable as nerfs then trying to argue bugs and bugs fixes are nerfs.

That's actually not my point. I was rather explicitly not trying to state opinions on nerfs, as to not get into arguments on if nerfs were justified.

That being said, can you give me a few examples?[/quote]

 

[b0bst3r]

Funny thing is YOU'RE all responsible for the nerfs, it makes me laugh, someone comes on and gloats about how he's made unlimited EU and such like without realising the modders frequent these forums, read their post and then "fix" the issue. Then they come back and complain their unlimited EU source has been patched/nerfed/balanced/cremated/wormholed.

Just makes me laugh so much.

 

[LittleMike]

I'm afraid thats simply not true. You are using a overly literal interpriation of wikipedia for your definition.

• BC Builder flat-out doesn't work. - Bug
• IC2 nuclear reactor changes - Nerf
• IC2 tools no longer accept enchantments -Bug Fix
• EE3. - Not Even the same mod if your comparing to EE2. Blazerod change is a nerf.
• Forestry in general. (Biogas engines and milk, new-style farms (isn't forestry supposed to be about renewable resources?), etc.) - A combination of nerfs and feature removals. You can't take forestry as one game element, you need to break it up and compare equivalent features if they exist.
• Railcraft cart linking - (I've not heard of this one)
• Soul shards - Combining is a bugfix, new recipie is a nerf

There is a bit of leeway when a bugs been around so long that it's been used as a fature. (think old rail boosters). But you shouldn't try to stretch the definition of nerf to support your argument.
It's much easier to make your original point of there being too much of a downward trend of nurfing, especaly via making things more grindy/lucky by using things that are easily idenitfyable as nerfs then trying to argue bugs and bugs fixes are nerfs.

Bug fixes and nerfs are not mutually exclusive. You can have a bug that allows an exploit and when the bug is fixed, it can still be considered a nerf because it reduces the effectiveness of a game element (back to where the author originally intended it to be*.)

*Where the author originally intended it to be is immaterial to the authenticity of nerf or bug fix. The intention determines whether it is a bug fix or a feature. Apples and oranges.

 

[Bagman817]

The people complaining of nerfs are apparently unaware that Dartcraft exists. Your argument is invalid

 

[LittleMike]

The people complaining of nerfs are apparently unaware that Dartcraft exists. Your argument is invalid

Not if you play on a Mindcrack server like I do

Honestly, nerfs will happen. They suck sometimes, but it's part of the game. Many games, even. Anything that has a recurring update schedule is going to eventually have nerfs. I think this thread got very carried away from the OP's intentions. Arguing over exploits and whatnot is silly. Any time something is made worse, whether it fixes an imbalance or not, is a nerf and I think the OP just wanted to have a discussion on the ones that have ticked you off the most. Can't we all just get along?

So back on topic, I haven't seen many nerfs that I know of because I play the Mindcrack pack on a server. I know the changes to the mixed metal ingots were a bit of a pain, but nothing too bad. I think most of the changes were GT related.

 

[Zealstarwind]

The problem is when you design a game to be fun you have to sacrifice some what of a balance. It's when trying to merge the two that issues arise. Balancing a world is never easy, I know a bit I took game design for 2 years. It's rough but it's also very very enlightening to see what game devs/modders do. Nerfs for the sake of preventing someone from exploring a game's full potential is and always will be the lazy man's fix. I always scoff at them when someone finds a way to exploit not one but 2 mods to accomplish such a feat then the mod author decides to nerf it because of another mod.

Here's one for the blaze powder nerf, the most simple solution. Instead of nerfing the ability all together.. just make it harder to obtain through your mod.. wanna use a minium stone to get those 4 powders you macerated? well you get blaze fragments instead which makes a blaze rod, thus evening it out. It's only when you upgrade the minium stone, with materials that equal the trouble, can you get the doubling of rods/powders. One of the reasons I'm so sad I had to drop out of the Art Institute was because so many game designers/modders now adays are just so.... incredibly.... bad.... (not saying I'm better but I have more of an interest in fun then balance) The indie market is taking off so much because people want to have fun with games and indie devs aren't really about balance perse they are about fun, getting their fun idea out to the masses while big name devs are just about the money and balance brings money.

I shuddered today at how dumb our youth is. Listening to DW20's stream one of the players on there made a joke, people gave her a "Oh ho ho that's dumb but mildly funny" laugh and she was like, "What... that's from world of warcraft" I just about died inside.. It's this new trend where we forget about our pasts and dont learn from them. I'm just waiting for the modders to remember what made minecraft fun and head back in that direction. If not I'm learning Java and modding my own works