Mechanics discussion: all about the grind

[Pyure]

No I love AE2. It really isnt a one block solution mod especially if you want to do autocrafting. The channel system also offers a challenge when it comes to designing something organized and visually appealing. Unlike the first one where you could just wire everything up however you pleased, the sequel requires some thought or it will be a huge ugly mess.

I must be thinking of someone else, apologies.

I like AE2 just fine, but I know some folks feel its too simple. I'm not clear on whether they're familiar with the newer version of the mod (where channels are actually interesting to work with) or not.

The "one-block-solution" comment wasn't meant to imply that a single block handles the entire mod (because EnderIO isn't like that either), more that a single block can accomplish a lot of things that some players prefer to have spread out (which is certainly true of both mods).

I'm not a huge fan of seeing EIO in modpacks, but I'll confess that if its present, the pipes are just too handy to ignore. I'll often use them in lieu of, say, TE itemducts, since they save me the step of making/assigning servos. Etc.

(I'm the type of player who finds it hard to ignore win-buttons in packs. So I edit them out if possible)

 

[epidemia78]

I tweaked out the Sag Mill and Alloy Smelter and the need for the silly EIO ingots. I only use the conduits if I absolutely need to bundle up a bunch of different pipes in one block for some reason. Now the recipes use TE stuff mostly except for the more magical type machines which also require a bit of Thaumcraft. My favorite part of EIO is the dark steel helmet's night vision toggle feature and the powered spawners a distant second. Without those two things I wouldnt even bother with the mod at all.

 

[KingTriaxx]

I like EnderIO for a couple of reasons. First thing are the single block piping solutions. I can run very compact piping and things invisibly. I've already proven I can do things the complex way. I have no reason to limit myself to only the most complex way.

Second, I love the fact that I can disguise them with EIO's amazing facades. And the unique ability to work on the pipes without having to remove the facades.

Third, I like the ability to bridge across EIO lines. So if I'm running normal AE cable, and EIO cable lines and they have to cross, I place one EIO ME Cable, and it connects to both normal AE cables and I continue on, without spending three additional cables to jump a one block gap.

Last of all, I love the sheer insane speed the Alloy Smelter gives me for making stuff I'd normally sit and stare at the Induction Smelter for minutes, in a fraction of the time.

---

Why would you dump the awesomely cool EIO ingots? And the SAG mill and Alloy Smelter? Those are some of the best parts of the mod.

 

[RavynousHunter]

It certainly doesn't hurt EIO's case that its smelter is basically a slower basic smelting factory from Mekanism with a few extra features. The mod also makes working with machines that need multiple inputs, like high-end Mekanism ore processing and RotaryCraft's fermenters, as examples, much simpler since I can use one side for multiple inputs, assuming the target machines allows it. Sometimes, its the only way to make setups work in a space-efficient manner if you, like me, really don't bother with Thaumcraft and its addons, so you almost never end up making transvector interfaces. That, and the only pipes I find more visually appealing are Mek's pipes. Oh, and the top-tier fluid conduits can handle multiple fluids on a single line. Yeah, EIO's a staple for a reason.

 

[PsionicArchon]

This thread has given me some interesting things to ponder (from my original post). It also appears to have moved from grind to storage drawer discussion.

On the topic of amazing storage solutions, I'm surprised no one's mentioned the Modular Systems mod (formally known as modular furnaces). It adds a modular storage system built entirely out of wood and string. It has various expansion blocks ranging from plain a old storage expansion to a crafting table upgrade. Me and my friends have affectionately dubbed it the 'wooden AE system'.

Much like Storage Drawers, it fits into the mid game AE/LP network phase. Place a storage bus against any portion of the modular storage system and you'll have access to everything stored within. It's a multiblock structure that can be designed in any shape/size so long as its blocks are touching. Unfortunately the mod author has been rather inactive as of late. I hope it isn't dead as it's become invaluable for me as a means of grind circumvention. I'm not a big fan of digging through things to find items. I much prefer to search for what I need as I need it.

Example screenshot: http://i.imgur.com/qkHVupx.png

 

[KingTriaxx]

I love the look of Mek pipes. I only wish EIO pipes were as visually cool, or Mek's could take up the same block space.

If he is gone, expect someone to port it. Or port it yourself.

 

[RavynousHunter]

I love the look of Mek pipes. I only wish EIO pipes were as visually cool, or Mek's could take up the same block space.

If he is gone, expect someone to port it. Or port it yourself.

EnderMek? Mekanism IO? Hm...actually sounds pretty cool, specially if you could render all the stuff like normal for the pipes and see all the things zipping by.

 

[RealKC]

EnderMek? Mekanism IO? Hm...actually sounds pretty cool, specially if you could render all the stuff like normal for the pipes and see all the things zipping by.

Somebody needs a mod like that.

 

[RavynousHunter]

Somebody needs a mod like that.

Maybe someone should take the idea to Aidan himself, see what he thinks.

 

[RealKC]

Maybe someone should take the idea to Aidan himself, see what he thinks.

To MinecraftForum we go? Or is just me?

 

[RavynousHunter]

Don't think I'm registered on the main MC forum or, if I am, I've long since forgotten my login info. Could hit him up on Mek's Github, though...hm.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

And for today, I'd like to address another topic that broaches obliquely on 'grind', and that is: PLAYER ENGAGEMENT

What's the difference between a boring, pointless grind and 'holy crap, where did those three hours go'? It boils down to how engaged the player is in the mechanic, how much does he want to do it.

Staring at a crafting grid, for example, is not particularly engaging. Waiting five minutes for something to cook up is not engaging. However, something cooking for five minutes, that requires you to do things while it is going on, is somewhat more engaging. As an example, cooking something in a furnace-like machine is not engaging. Thaumcraft's infusion mechanism is more engaging because while it takes some time, you have to monitor it to keep it from becoming unstable.

The other thing you can do for time-based grind (like ovens), is permit it to run a series of tasks at once, then you can go off and do other things. This leads back to automation and why it is important in keeping the player engaged.

Ultimately, what one player considers engaging another might not. Which means you are definitely not going to be able to make a universal set of engaging principles, but the basic concept of 'staring at a screen isn't very entertaining' probably is as close to a universal constant as you are likely to get.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

With time based mechanics, the question is ''can be be left to its own devices (Vanilla furnace/Railcraft steel/Steves Carts assembler), or does it require babysitting but passes fast enough to remain engaging (such as Thaumcraft infusion)?''

⇝With the latter, the process is over fairly quickly and thus the player remains engaged throughout- though it'll wear thin through multiple iterations.
(Thaumcraft as this covered via automation and stabilising the reaction.)

⇝With the former the processing time doesn't really matter- go do something productive while it cooks. If you choose to watch the grass grow then you forfeit the right to complain about grass growing being tedious.
The only time it really becomes an issue is if the average use/consumption vastly exceeds production.

A more current example is the crop improvement in Regrowth.
It takes time to reach 10-10-10 stats, a lot of people griped about waiting for them to grow. Dire mentioned logging in and waiting in one of the earlier episodes. Thats your problem, they don't need watching. I build something, turn around and Ding! crops are done. We both got to the same end, except I had fun and have something to show for it- Why choose to get bored waiting when you could be doing something interesting?
​

As for with mining [early game]- cave diving or strip mining?

Digging a perfectly straight tunnel is as about as un-engaging as it gets. Beyond the initial novelty of a new mining toy its boring. Thats what quarries are for folks.
Exploring caves does a lot more to keep it interesting, and its (sadly) something that gets rather undersold in most packs in favour of another new toy to aid digging perfectly straight tunnels.​

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

With time based mechanics, the question is ''can be be left to its own devices (Vanilla furnace/Railcraft steel/Steves Carts assembler), or does it require babysitting but passes fast enough to remain engaging (such as Thaumcraft infusion)?''

⇝With the latter, the process is over fairly quickly and thus the player remains engaged throughout- though it'll wear thin through multiple iterations.
(Thaumcraft as this covered via automation and stabilising the reaction.)

⇝With the former the processing time doesn't really matter- go do something productive while it cooks. If you choose to watch the grass grow then you forfeit the right to complain about grass growing being tedious.
The only time it really becomes an issue is if the average use/consumption vastly exceeds production.

A more current example is the crop improvement in Regrowth.
It takes time to reach 10-10-10 stats, a lot of people griped about waiting for them to grow. Dire mentioned logging in and waiting in one of the earlier episodes. Thats your problem, they don't need watching. I build something, turn around and Ding! crops are done. We both got to the same end, except I had fun and have something to show for it- Why choose to get bored waiting when you could be doing something interesting?
​

As for with mining [early game]- cave diving or strip mining?

Digging a perfectly straight tunnel is as about as un-engaging as it gets. Beyond the initial novelty of a new mining toy its boring. Thats what quarries are for folks.
Exploring caves does a lot more to keep it interesting, and its (sadly) something that gets rather undersold in most packs in favour of another new toy to aid digging perfectly straight tunnels.​

While I would normally agree, there is one thing which cannot be avoided, and that is when you are logjammed or have a tier-gate that you are waiting on, and don't really have anything else to do until it finishes. This is particularly noticeable on some of the more 'hardcore' or 'difficult' packs.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

Unless its right in the earliest game and you have effectively zero materials to work with, there are always other things one can build and tinker with.

 

[RealKC]

Unless its right in the earliest game and you have effectively zero materials to work with, there are always other things one can build and tinker with.

Like go and get a creeper and try to kill it next to the thing your doing or fighting a wither

 

[Celestialphoenix]

Whatever floats your boat

 

[KingTriaxx]

I actually tend to go manually mining during those 'waiting for something' down times.

A mod with an engaging 'grind' I've noticed is Tardis. Flight lets you go interdimensionally, but until you reach a certain level, it requires you remain vigilant to keep things from exploding. Stuff turns blue and flips and you have to rush over and flip it back. Fortunately, when it turns blue, it's visible through the console they're on. After some flight time, it becomes safe to just launch and wait.

 

[Plasmasnake]

I hate the type of grind that involves you waiting far too long for something to process that is part of the mod's techtree.

I love grind that involves me gathering up resources or requires me to build up some infrastructure, I get to be creative in these cases and there are usually tons of ways to acquire particular items. I will not name mods, because I fear it will come across as me just targeting them, but I have a couple in my mind that once you get all the requirements needed for a certain 'tier' of tech or a piece of equipment, you just have to wait for this one damned machine... wait... and wait...and wait.

In addition, I loathe things that require diamonds to craft. I have the worst luck finding diamonds every world I play to the point where when I stop playing a world, it is usually because I needed diamonds for something and could not get enough. I spend half my game spelunking while a quarry or bore scavenges for diamonds and I still run at a shortage. The best point in my MC life is when I randomly generated a RFTools dimension and got diamond ore tendrils... but sadness ensues because that world is hilariously unstable and lags quite a bit.

 

[RedBoss]

I actually like hand mining, even straight line mining. Its not a mental challenge, but its oddly stress relieving.

And while something like a Cart assembler doesn't need to be watched, it is a butt load of boredom when I logged in to build a damned tree farm and now I have hours of wait time before I can use the item to build said tree farm. Time gates where you CAN do something else are fine, as long as doing something else is what you want to do. In that time, I usually consider the myriad other options to achieve the same goal and the time sink mod becomes useless in my pack. a severe and non engaging time gates leads me to consider dropping the mod in question instead of using it.