Mechanics discussion: all about the grind

[Azzanine]

Imo the perfect system for any process is for there to be 2 methods for one goal; The advertised long way and the intended but down played short way. Players tend to stick with mods they think they can exploit.

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[KingTriaxx]

I wouldn't say mods that can be exploited, as much as mods with which they are familiar. High speed ones, or ones that they understand even after changes. IC2 is still reasonably popular because it's well understood. Players might not like the changes, but it's still familiar, and can be cranked up to ludicrous speeds. If you can provide the power, they can even run that fast. That's a pretty significant if though.

Rotarycraft on the other hand, is almost nothing like IC2, but at the same time it can also be cranked to insane speeds, but there aren't per machine upgrades, you simply add more power into the system until it runs that fast.

 

[Pyure]

Rotarycraft on the other hand, is almost nothing like IC2, but at the same time it can also be cranked to insane speeds, but there aren't per machine upgrades, you simply add more power into the system until it runs that fast.

Weirdly, while RoC shares little in common with IC2, it has a lot in common with GT. This particularly includes the power=speed mechanic mentioned above but also similar gating systems (where you must attain some narrow mod-specific goal in order to reach the next tier of toys to play with.)

 

[KingTriaxx]

Hadn't noticed until you made mention. Though in RoC's case, most machines don't have an issue with blowing up when they get too much power. Or wet.

 

[Celestialphoenix]

Say that to the reactors

Though I kinda like the explode when wet mechanic; its an interesting way to encourage players to build and think about base design.

 

[RavynousHunter]

It does kinda make sense, at least. Rotation-based machines are more resilient to the elements than electrical machines. That said, you should really be able to friggin waterproof your machines in GT.

 

[Type1Ninja]

Say that to the reactors

Though I kinda like the explode when wet mechanic; its an interesting way to encourage players to build and think about base design.

I disagree about interesting base design... How many times have you WANTED to use water spilling out over floors in your base? Anywhere you use it is likely to be contained anyway, so machines only really explode when something unintentional happens. To rephrase a quote I saw somewhere else (maybe your sig, actually):
"I don't think anybody has ever [gotten their machines wet], had half their base explode, and said 'Gee, I intentionally tried something foolish and was fairly punished for my mistake.'"

This isn't a thread about GT, though, so I'd better say something on topic.
Does anyone know if there's a player-equipment-based (tools, weapons, armor) end-game to GT? I think that the end game for every tech mod should be player equipment (magic mods should have it as early, mid, AND end game, at least by my definition of "magic," and tech mods could use a sprinkling of tools throughout the game as well). That way, there's a reason (yes, I get it, an internally motivated player doesn't need that reward, but that's unimportant) to do all of the grinding, beyond "I have eighty bajillion tons of every material known to Steve-kind and nothing to spend it on but more machines." So, does GT have end-game gear? Or at least an official addon mod? To me, that's a major flaw with TE: you need an addon for player gear. Even then, I dislike the gear Redstone Arsenal provides; there's no way to circumvent the grind with automation—the recipes are stupidly complex, to the point where manual crafting is far more viable (I think. I would need to play a lot more to get behind that statement 100%, but in my not-having-time-to-play state that's how it seems). Even worse, they're not that powerful. The armor doesn't give you invincibility (which it should. Tech mods are balanced against PvE—being invincible to other players is fine because tech-factions tend to be unfun because of griefing, so those servers die). The tools are even worse; my slightly upgraded tinkers iron pickaxe is better than the stuff RA provides (the balance of tinker's is irrelevant, no iron tool—no matter how diamond encrusted, Redstone covered, and charged by sunlight it is—should be more powerful than the RA tools). They're both expensive and inflexible, as well as not performing particularly useful functions. I know *I've* never wanted to mine a vertical 3x1 hole.

EDIT: I agree with this statement. It relates to what I said about having absurdly difficult grind alleviated with absurdly easy automation, though perhaps to a lesser extent than *I* mean the idea (I would be willing to compromise if this idea were implemented into an actual mod and I got input, of course ).

Imo the perfect system for any process is for there to be 2 methods for one goal; The advertised long way and the intended but down played short way. Players tend to stick with mods they think they can exploit.

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[PsionicArchon]

I've never been a fan of grind. It always came across as a lazy means to extend gameplay where a creative solution cannot be found.

This becomes especially apparent within modded Minecraft where balancing tends to materialize in the form of complicated recipes. These recipes either involve ludicrously expensive items consisting of "difficult" to acquire resources or compounded steps. Eyeballing that shiny new flux armor jet plate? Well, I hope you don't mind wading through six hundred different crafting steps.

The real problem with grind in Minecraft is that nothing is finite. I can make infinite everything if I so desire. Eventually, I'm churning out Nether Stars, Shiny Metal and, uu-matter like it's nobodies business. Power creep completely invalidates 99% of the grind I've ever encountered. The only finite resource here for most of us is time. Are you willing to invest the time necessary to craft the "expensive" item of your desires? If you're like me, or my wife, working full time with no car and errands to run that answer is probably no.

In short, grind /= difficulty. At least for me, opinions being what they are.

Grind does not require the player to think. There's always going to be a more efficient way to acquire an item and that's going to be the rout you'll take every time. Why? It's faster and time is the critical resource here.

Now, things that force the player to think, to plan are a step in the right direction.

Remember the days of Buildcraft sorting systems? Sure, setting up a simple sorting system was pretty easy. You just needed a redstone engine, a wooden pipe, some stone pipes and, a couple of chests. On the other hand, separating those items into specific chests and keeping them stocked required clever planning. Designing these systems was entirely optional and if you could figure it out, made your life much easier. Then along comes Redpower. Now all I need to do is plop some pipes down, paint them and boom, done.

A lot of people seem to hate the channel system AE2 added. I absolutely adore it. It incentivizes players to intelligently plan out their network in a way that makes future expansions possible. Players who start plopping down cables may find adding to their AE network in the future tedious and cumbersome.

IC2's e-net was another example of good difficulty (minus the exploding machines, I would have preferred they short out). You had to plan out your cabling, segregating machines into voltage tiers. This has been replaced by the set it and forget it cabling of the redstone flux era. Gregtech seems to be bringing this back so kudos to him.

If I'm going to spend time, I want it to be voluntary. I want to be forced to think.

What I don't want to do is grind resources for a week, hunt down mobs for countless hours or, generate millions of chunks to find a dungeon chest/meteor with the items in it I need to progress. None of these "problems" are difficult to solve. They all require brute force solutions and that is why they are bad (to me). They're also bad for server hosts, such as myself. I've added recipes for AE2's presses because, I don't need seven people all generating chunks for five hours searching for meteors.

Similarly, setting up dozens of mfr lasers/quarries/digital miners/alvearies/recyclers to procure resources isn't difficult. It's also absolute hell for server admins to deal with. What's that? Server lagging? Tps gone to hell? Blame the 150 force loaded chunks because everyone and their grandmother decided to build a full sized quarry.

If you want an example of difficulty done right in a crafting survival game, look no further than factorio. Resource automation is given to players right out of the gate. The game hands you your first mining drill. The difficulty arises from the player's desire to set up complex item routing and logistics. All of this is entirely unnecessary. Nearly every machine can be manually fed resources but, if you're smart enough to figure out factorio's logistics you can save yourself quite a bit of time. Progression is gated by research, research is gated by resources and, resource mining isn't gated at all. There's a natural progression to things that doesn't require tedious mini games or hours at a crafting table.

If you were smart and planned ahead the game will progress rather fluidly. Every resource in the game can be acquired by the player within the first ten to fifteen minutes of gameplay. No hours of exploration, no rng loot, no grind.

Immersive Engineering seems to have taken inspiration from factorio, especially with its conveyor system and wiring. Limit yourself to automating Immersive Engineering ore processing and you'll see what I mean.

I understand that we don't all enjoy the same things. Some people seem to love grinding for items and the reward that follows, there's nothing wrong with that. It's just not my cup of tea.

Please excuse this long winded post. Exhaustion has robbed me of my sanity and, it's been ages since I've visited these forums.

 

[Pyure]

Does anyone know if there's a player-equipment-based (tools, weapons, armor) end-game to GT? I think that the end game for every tech mod should be player equipment (magic mods should have it as early, mid, AND end game, at least by my definition of "magic," and tech mods could use a sprinkling of tools throughout the game as well).

Good god, why? What does equipment have to do with anything in a hardcore tech/machinery mod? I run around more or less naked half the time in a tech pack, with the exception of items that make me move faster or fly.

Oh I see you addressed the "why"...

That way, there's a reason (yes, I get it, an internally motivated player doesn't need that reward, but that's unimportant) to do all of the grinding, beyond "I have eighty bajillion tons of every material known to Steve-kind and nothing to spend it on but more machines."

While I agree that having a end-game goal is a commendable ideal, I don't see that equipment fits the bill in the type of packs you're describing. I could care less about having awesome armor or swords or anything of that sort. Maybe because I don't server-play much? Because I'm 30+?

For me, sadly, the end-goal is whatever god-machine you can build at the end. Fusion Reactors for RoC and GT (blood asp's port anyway)

I'd like to see more modpacks address this problem. I've been tinkering over the last few months on a pack that lets you challenge yourself to make use of these silly sources of power. Maybe the answer isn't really found in mods, but in the packs those mods are used in?

 

[Pyure]

In short, gind{sic} /= difficulty. At least for me, opinions being what they are.

Its neat how often this exact quote comes up.

The truth is, grind does equal difficulty, in a non-subjective, non-opinion oriented manner: grind presents you with choices. You need to decide how to spend your time, and you need to devise ways to make those choices easier.

This often gets obfuscated into "grind and difficulty are two different things", but there's no such thing as difficulty without grind. In a puzzle game, you're applying mental grind. In a shooter game, you're applying physical/twitch grind. In minecraft, if something costs me 5000 iron instead of 50 iron, that's more difficult. In your world, you'll just spend an hour or whatever getting your 50 iron. In my world, I have critical choices to make: do I create a quarry? Do I create a bee farm? Do I look into oreberries? Do I make a mob farm?

Grind is difficulty because it makes you make decisions (and hopefully learn from them)

If I'm going to spend time, I want it to be voluntary. I want to be forced to think.

What I don't want to do is grind resources for a week, hunt down mobs for countless hours or, generate millions of chunks to find a dungeon chest/meteor with the items in it I need to progress. None of these "problems" are difficult to solve. They all require brute force solutions and that is why they are bad (to me). They're also bad for server hosts, such as myself. I've added recipes for AE2's presses because, I don't need seven people all generating chunks for five hours searching for meteors.

Agreed, although I'm careful to make a real and honest distinction between the "possibly" pointless grinding and the "definitely" pointless grinding. If the only way to get somewhere is to find dungeon chests, I'm inclined to agree. But if those resources can be aquired via some sort of expensive quarrying mechanism, its a different story.

 

[epidemia78]

"No such thing as difficulty without grind" What? When people say "back to the grind" they mean a repetitive and boring task. A synonym of grind is drudge which means hard, menial or monotonous work. It doesnt say anything about choices. Seems your tolerance level for drudgery is high compared to others so to say that your opinion on the matter is non subjective is a bit presumptuous.

 

[Azzanine]

Depends on how you define difficult.
Dictionary summary merely states it as something that takes immense effort and hardship to accomplish. I think mindless grind falls in to that catagory.
Grind does = difficulty as far as the dictionary goes.

I think the key words to focus on here is not difficulty. But enrichment, challenge and accomplishment. Do you feel like you are the cleverest mofo on the history of the world, or like you would have been better off frenching a power socket aftet doing something.

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[Cptqrk]

Its neat how often this exact quote comes up.

The truth is, grind does equal difficulty, in a non-subjective, non-opinion oriented manner: grind presents you with choices. You need to decide how to spend your time, and you need to devise ways to make those choices easier.

This often gets obfuscated into "grind and difficulty are two different things", but there's no such thing as difficulty without grind. In a puzzle game, you're applying mental grind. In a shooter game, you're applying physical/twitch grind. In minecraft, if something costs me 5000 iron instead of 50 iron, that's more difficult. In your world, you'll just spend an hour or whatever getting your 50 iron. In my world, I have critical choices to make: do I create a quarry? Do I create a bee farm? Do I look into oreberries? Do I make a mob farm?

Grind is difficulty because it makes you make decisions (and hopefully learn from them)



Agreed, although I'm careful to make a real and honest distinction between the "possibly" pointless grinding and the "definitely" pointless grinding. If the only way to get somewhere is to find dungeon chests, I'm inclined to agree. But if those resources can be aquired via some sort of expensive quarrying mechanism, its a different story.

You forgot the other decision that can be made. Turn off the game.

As a 40+, full time job, guy with a girlfriend, I have a choice. Do I "enjoy" my life or do I "enjoy" grinding out resources? Your suggest bees as a way to fix your lack of iron issue, bees are more of a grind than mining LOL!

On the subject of grind. It's not that it's more difficult to mine 2x the normal resources you need for basic things, it's that mining the 2x resources is dull, boring, time consuming (when you've got about 1-2 hours to play because you've got work at 5am.. dear god....) and tedious.

If "the grind" was so fun, why do let's play folks on Youtube almost always cut out mining runs (unless they are vloging while mining)?
Why do they say "Okay got my stuff together to make WidgetOfAwesome! I'll be right back when it's crafted! *snip* OHHMANGUYS! I got the WidgetOfAwesome! Let's go try it out!!"

Grind is boring.

$0.02

 

[Type1Ninja]

Good god, why? What does equipment have to do with anything in a hardcore tech/machinery mod? I run around more or less naked half the time in a tech pack, with the exception of items that make me move faster or fly.

Oh I see you addressed the "why"...


While I agree that having a end-game goal is a commendable ideal, I don't see that equipment fits the bill in the type of packs you're describing. I could care less about having awesome armor or swords or anything of that sort. Maybe because I don't server-play much? Because I'm 30+?

For me, sadly, the end-goal is whatever god-machine you can build at the end. Fusion Reactors for RoC and GT (blood asp's port anyway)

I'd like to see more modpacks address this problem. I've been tinkering over the last few months on a pack that lets you challenge yourself to make use of these silly sources of power. Maybe the answer isn't really found in mods, but in the packs those mods are used in?

Ok... We'll agree to disagree. I guess I do see your point. However, lets view a hypothetical scenario:
1. Let's say there's a tech mod that's *really* popular and so good in every way it's really the best way to play. It has no end-game gear. You play with the mod, you're happy. I play with the mod, I'm mildly put off because of the lack of gear.
2. Now let's picture the same mod with a set of armor and tools. You're still happy because you have more moral fiber than I and don't need the armor and stuff to be happy. But now *I* am happy as well because it exists should I want it.

So, while such equipment maybe shouldn't be #1 on the priority list of _every_single_mod_, the most popular mods should at least make an effort at some point to please those weak-minded players like me.

Depends on how you define difficult.
Dictionary summary merely states it as something that takes immense effort and hardship to accomplish. I think mindless grind falls in to that catagory.
Grind does = difficulty as far as the dictionary goes.

I think the key words to focus on here is not difficulty. But enrichment, challenge and accomplishment. Do you feel like you are the cleverest mofo on the history of the world, or like you would have been better off frenching a power socket aftet doing something.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

All grind = difficulty, but not all difficulty = grind. Most people here are arguing that the more non-grind difficulty there is, the better a mod is (or that there should be a shortcut requiring cleverness). Personally, I think that means expensive but highly repetitive and therefore only mildly difficult to automate recipes for machines (and equipment for players, @Pyure ), as well as dirt cheap automation tools.

Also, I think that in the future I'm going to disallow configurable machine sides in any mods I use. I think maybe that was a huge part of the challenge of automation in the past.

So, if/when/right now we've figured out what a balanced amount of grind is, is there some way we can implement that? Is there someone with more time than I have who can try to make a mod based around these principles? Do we try to get the FTB team to do this? Do we bug some other mod author to try this? Do we fork some other mod and try implementing this stuff? Do we use minetweaker? Does this need its own modpack (with a GitHub page because mod packs *should* work on GitHub afaik and it would be awesome)?
Discussion is often useless without an outlet, I think.

 

[Pyure]

"No such thing as difficulty without grind" What? When people say "back to the grind" they mean a repetitive and boring task. A synonym of grind is drudge which means hard, menial or monotonous work. It doesnt say anything about choices. Seems your tolerance level for drudgery is high compared to others so to say that your opinion on the matter is non subjective is a bit presumptuous.

Nope, but thanks for the opinion.

Depends on how you define difficult.
Dictionary summary merely states it as something that takes immense effort and hardship to accomplish. I think mindless grind falls in to that catagory.
Grind does = difficulty as far as the dictionary goes.

I think the key words to focus on here is not difficulty. But enrichment, challenge and accomplishment. Do you feel like you are the cleverest mofo on the history of the world, or like you would have been better off frenching a power socket aftet doing something.

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

Preferably the former. If my solution to grind is sitting there like an idiot with a pickaxe for 14 hours, I've at best accomplished the latter, and that holds no interest for me. But if there are SOLUTIONS to it, that's the former.

You forgot the other decision that can be made. Turn off the game.

As a 40+, full time job, guy with a girlfriend, I have a choice. Do I "enjoy" my life or do I "enjoy" grinding out resources? Your suggest bees as a way to fix your lack of iron issue, bees are more of a grind than mining LOL!

On the subject of grind. It's not that it's more difficult to mine 2x the normal resources you need for basic things, it's that mining the 2x resources is dull, boring, time consuming (when you've got about 1-2 hours to play because you've got work at 5am.. dear god....) and tedious.

If "the grind" was so fun, why do let's play folks on Youtube almost always cut out mining runs (unless they are vloging while mining)?
Why do they say "Okay got my stuff together to make WidgetOfAwesome! I'll be right back when it's crafted! *snip* OHHMANGUYS! I got the WidgetOfAwesome! Let's go try it out!!"

Grind is boring.

$0.02

I listed a bunch of potential solutions. I hate bees, but some people are amazing at setting up bee-grinding factories and I didn't want to omit a workable solution. But, yeah, bees don't really work for me either as a grind-mitigation solution either.

Ok... We'll agree to disagree. I guess I do see your point. However, lets view a hypothetical scenario:
1. Let's say there's a tech mod that's *really* popular and so good in every way it's really the best way to play. It has no end-game gear. You play with the mod, you're happy. I play with the mod, I'm mildly put off because of the lack of gear.
2. Now let's picture the same mod with a set of armor and tools. You're still happy because you have more moral fiber than I and don't need the armor and stuff to be happy. But now *I* am happy as well because it exists should I want it.

Explanation works for me. Its just a matter of whether people care about the reward. I gather a lot of people would, but in this case it doesn't really do anything for me

So, if/when/right now we've figured out what a balanced amount of grind is, is there some way we can implement that? Is there someone with more time than I have who can try to make a mod based around these principles? Do we try to get the FTB team to do this? Do we bug some other mod author to try this? Do we fork some other mod and try implementing this stuff? Do we use minetweaker? Does this need its own modpack (with a GitHub page because mod packs *should* work on GitHub afaik and it would be awesome)?
Discussion is often useless without an outlet, I think.

This scale is different for virtually every player. FTB Infinity has caught my attention recently (which is weird because I haven't enjoyed a stock FTB pack in years) but mostly its because I've yet to figure out all the workarounds. But its definitely a low-moderate grindy pack with a hoard of ways to attack that grind.

Fun discussion guys

 

[KingTriaxx]

There's a fine line between grind and earning your goal. Is it a grind to mine a thousand Iron to make a pickaxe? Definitely. Is it a grind to mine twenty-seven iron to make a pick? Not necessarily. (Assuming one iron gives one nugget.)

End of the day, the difference between grind and an earned outcome is both subjective and maleable. I would consider twenty-seven iron mined for an iron pick to be acceptable, but not grindy. Not everyone would agree, I understand. And if I had to mine 9 things for each ingot every time I wanted to make something with iron, it would get old quickly. So what do you do? You automate it. Make things to mine the ore, or smelt it or what have you, and take it out of your hands. That's why there are quarries. That's why there are piping systems. And trains and AE.

The same reason RL factories use robots for lots of the tedious, repetitive work. Automation does not get bored.

 

[Inaeo]

My thoughts on the whole grind-subject: I find it quite entertaining and also a different challenge than usual. Since I find it hard to remember recipes when they take 5 or more sub-tasks, I had to help me out with multiple crafting tables (or the Steve's workshop one that combines them), smart NEI filtering and even some notes on paper.

I recommend you look into the BiblioCraft Clipboard. It is perfect for To Do lists and remembering the steps in complicated recipes. It even comes with check boxes next to each line, so you can visually check your progress. They can also be hung on walls (I keep one by the door to remind me of what supplies I'm low on, particularly in the early game.). I find myself lost without one these days.

Now, on to the grind. I feel like very few mods, let alone mod packs, manage the line between slowing down the game using resources to gate progression and boring me with the need for obscene investment or overly nested crafting. I'm OK with progression, but being face in a crafting table for 20 minutes isn't my idea of fun.

Personally, I don't have the time I once had to invest in a game. This makes some of the mods and packs seem daunting, as it will take me a month or more to change tiers in some of them (I played Resurrection on a server with friends for two months, and I barely left the Bronze Age). It also means the time I do have to invest means a lot to me, and any mod that uses time played as a gating mechanic is right out.

On the other hand, I've decided to avoid mods like MFR when I have other options because I feel the benefit/investment ratio makes my game too easy. Not that I don't love the solutions they provide. I do. MFR had me hooked when I first started modded MC, but now that I've seen more of the landscape, I can't shake the feeling that it's all too simple. I know I could config it or Minetweak the recipes, but unless I'm making my own pack, that's just not going to happen.

Grind, as a mechanic, lacks a universal definition. I consider gating automated tree farming to be grindy, but that's simply because I hate shopping down trees (TiCo Lumber Axe helps me deal with it) and wood is a base level resource that I always find myself low on early game. I'm a bit of a Dwarf, so I don't mind manual mining even into mid game. Other people I play with consider manual mining past their first three diamonds to be a grind. You'll never please all the people with your mod/modpack, so cater to the target audience, and ask those outside it to keep shopping elsewhere. As a mod consumer, it is your job to find the mods/packs that appeal to you, not to try to change the vision to fit your needs and wants.

That said, any game mechanic that requires me to spend an obscene amount of time or resources making a full assembly line for an item I will use one of is a grind I don't want. One off items should be one off. Disposable items and routine crafting ingredients should need factorization. I'm OK with using the previous tier item as a crafting component when upgrading, but don't make me make 64 tier one widgets to complete a tier 4 widget when I can only use (or ever wanted) one widget.

 

[epidemia78]

Nope, but thanks for the opinion.

What part of my comment are you "nope-ing"? There cannot be a non-subjective definition of grind, because the point when a task stops being fun and becomes a grind is different depending on the person. Ive seen you imply time and again that you have played many modpacks which means a start from scratch each and every time, indicating a high level of tolerance towards early game grind whereas I feel that early game is only fun after a sufficient period of not playing minecraft at all.

 

[RealKC]

What part of my comment are you "nope-ing"? There cannot be a non-subjective definition of grind, because the point when a task stops being fun and becomes a grind is different depending on the person. Ive seen you imply time and again that you have played many modpacks which means a start from scratch each and every time, indicating a high level of tolerance towards early game grind whereas I feel that early game is only fun after a sufficient period of not playing minecraft at all.

I actually hate early-game grind in any games.(even the grind for gold and elixir in Clash of Clans which exists in evert moment of the game unless you buy gems)

 

[Celestialphoenix]

You'll never please all the people with your mod/modpack, so cater to the target audience, and ask those outside it to keep shopping elsewhere. As a mod consumer, it is your job to find the mods/packs that appeal to you, not to try to change the vision to fit your needs and wants.

Couldn't of said it any better myself- We should engrave this on a gold plaque and weld it over the FTP/Curse logo.

1. Let's say there's a tech mod that's *really* popular and so good in every way it's really the best way to play. It has no end-game gear. You play with the mod, you're happy. I play with the mod, I'm mildly put off because of the lack of gear.
2. Now let's picture the same mod with a set of armor and tools. You're still happy because you have more moral fiber than I and don't need the armor and stuff to be happy. But now *I* am happy as well because it exists should I want it.

With point 2, it only applies if the armour/tools fit in well with the mod's design, otherwise you're just pissing away valuable dev time that could be better spent making point 1 even more awesome. Every feature costs dev time; saying 'yes' to one inevitably means 'no' to others. Not every mod needs "X feature" to be worth playing.

If "the grind" was so fun, why do let's play folks on Youtube almost always cut out mining runs (unless they are vloging while mining)?
Why do they say "Okay got my stuff together to make WidgetOfAwesome! I'll be right back when it's crafted! *snip* OHHMANGUYS! I got the WidgetOfAwesome! Let's go try it out!!"

I kinda agree on this; though I agree from the opposite direction- there could be more done to make the grind itself interesting.
An alternate [but harsh] analysis would be related to the short attention span of [some] LP audiences.

That said, you should really be able to friggin waterproof your machines in GT.

From what I remember- placing a GT cover/panel/plate on the top face protects it from the rain.