Is "Blood Magic" Overpowered?

[PierceSG]

Maybe change the Well of Suffering ritual into something like a Sacrificial Altar ritual which instead of bleeding mobs slowly, it kills mobs inside it's area of influence instantly for an instant LP gain? So people would still need an active mob spawning mechanism to generate LP instead of using just a handful of jailed witches?

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[Padfoote]

Maybe change the Well of Suffering ritual into something like a Sacrificial Altar ritual which instead of bleeding mobs slowly, it kills mobs inside it's area of influence instantly for an instant LP gain? So people would still need an active mob spawning mechanism to generate LP instead of using just a handful of jailed witches?

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This I like, but there'd have to be a bit of a cooldown between kills. I can already think of a few ways to abuse it.

 

[PierceSG]

Maybe make it either kill 1 every second or kill everything in it every x seconds?

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[ShneekeyTheLost]

Honestly, without the Well of Suffering, this mod is probably on the underpowered side. It's the setup for unlimited LP that really starts enabling all the really amazingly awesome stuff that Dave does with it. Basically, by the time you can get unlimited LP, Blood Magic is not going to be more powerful than, say, Thaumcraft's KAMI set or Modular Powersuits. And it requires a TON of prep work to get to that point. You simply can't abuse things like the Bound Pickaxe in 'world destroyer' mode without having a steady income of LP. You can't do ANYTHING with Brewing before Tier 2, and you can't get the useful ones until Tier 3. By that time, potions are less OP and more 'oh, yea, there's that too'.

It has almost zero power 'early game', so it is rather 'end loaded'. Which I find to be a quite handy balancing factor, because honestly I don't often GET to that stage of the game very often anymore. But as was pointed out... by the time you have four nether stars, you've probably got other means of destroying bosses and have the ability to destroy entire ages.

As a balancing point on the Well of Suffering, perhaps cap its LP production based on a tier system?

 

[PierceSG]

@WayofTime
This is your mod, and in my own opinion, just feel it out on your own.

Cross mod interactions can yield a lot of possibilities and sometimes exploits.

And in this case with the witches, it can only be done with MFR included with it's Jailer's Safari Net.
But when you look at Blood Magic as a standalone mod, it really needs to pair with the Well of Regeneration and some non-despawning mobs, which are mainly passive animals or villagers.
You can keep a pen of those for breeding and throw a few into the Well of Suffering+Regeneration and add mod when you can. Or replace those that are killed.

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[Eyamaz]

Oh, I love when these pop up from the authors, and way already knows how I, as well as my BnB admins feel on some things, but I'll recap for discussion.

Zerging. This is probably the biggest issue in a nonHC setting, but Way is already looking into this.

Brewing. Is not really as OP as most people think unless they are using a cross mod interaction that makes it so. This isn't really Way's problem and is something mod pack creators need to deal with.

Suffering and Regeneration.
This is the second biggest issue for me other than zerging. I really feel the two of these should not be allowed to be active within each other's sphere of influence. :shakes head: I personally refuse to use the combo anymore, preferring a mob farm. I just feel it as less cheaty for some reason. Idk.

My 2cents.

 

[KillerRamer]

I don't see why the well of suffering isn't just instant kill like the sacrificial knife.

 

[PierceSG]

Hmm..
@WayofTime Do you think you are able to rework the Well of Suffering ritual into a multiblock structure that can house one mob in it only, and essentially does the same thing as the Well of Suffering + Regeneration? And name it the Iron Maiden?

Give it a big statue kind of look with a Blood altar at the base where the LP accumulates, you can also place your orbs in it too like the regular altar. Only thing is you can't create items with that.

And make that the regeneration effect slightly weaker than the LP siphon effect so the mob will eventually die but the gain is more than using the sacrificial knife.
Make runes affect the amount of LP gained too.

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[Yusunoha]

Blood Magic isn't overpowered at all in my opinion. it takes alot of time and effort to reach that stage where you're able to craft those items.

 

[WayofTime]

Suffering and Regeneration.
This is the second biggest issue for me other than zerging. I really feel the two of these should not be allowed to be active within each other's sphere of influence. :shakes head: I personally refuse to use the combo anymore, preferring a mob farm. I just feel it as less cheaty for some reason. Idk.

This particular combo only prolongs the mob's life - it doesn't keep them alive indefinitely, since the Well of Suffering works 2x faster than the regen ritual, but is a means of increasing the yield from the mob for a slight cost.

 

[abobabo]

I haven't played much with blood magic, so I may be talking out of my ass, but perhaps instead of having the well of suffering deal actual damage, it could slowly transform the victims into some deranged blood mob, something like "spawn of suffering", that's a kinda-weak mob but that can't provide anything more for the well? So not only can't you counteract the damage with regen/witches, you also have to set up a way to get rid of the spawns.[DOUBLEPOST=1398083702][/DOUBLEPOST]Or if you want to get nasty, let the spawns work similar to creepers or the flaming skulls So you really want to get rid of the victims _before_ they turn into spawns.

 

[Revemohl]

I don't see why the well of suffering isn't just instant kill like the sacrificial knife.

Quoting this post because I also believe this could be the best way to rebalance the well of suffering, without adding new complex mechanics that would eventually get circumvented by clever ideas anyway. However, monsters exploding into masses of blood right away might not be as cool as them having slow and painful (?) deaths. This would also fix the witch dilemma.

As for the mod being OP, well, it's not like any mod with "end-game" content isn't "OP". I believe that the best way to give a price to things is by taking into account the amount of effort you need to put into them, not by making everything cost ten thousand Nether Stars -- and in that way, I find that BM is already perfectly balanced, as even with infinite LP setups it should take quite a bit to get some useful things going.

 

[James_Grimm]

I haven't played with everything yet but ...

Alchemy- Seems pretty balanced, it's actually pretty hard to make a super-potion more complicated then a long duration/potency one, and it takes a lot more effort & resources then vanilla.

Altars - Seem well balanced, if anything I'd say it's actually a bit too hard in the Tier 1/2 range to craft many things because you can't use many runes. Tier 3/4 seem completely fine, haven't tried Tier 5 yet because I haven't killed a bunch of Withers.

Tools - Also well balanced, The bound sword seems to be the strongest weapon in my pack, but only just barely. The other Bound tools are crazy good, but so dangerous I only ever make the pick, and then I rarely (and Carefully!) use it.

Armor - The blood armor set actually feels a bit strong compared to the rest, but I've never used MPS or Quantum armor either, and not excessively so. It's actually frustrating you can't put flight into it somehow, but I believe that's on purpose. Void sigil in the armor doesn't seem to do anything (I thought according to Ako it removed Void fog), but the rest are good.

Sigils - Again, totally fine compared to say Thaumcraft Wand Foci. Actually compared to them, (most) Sigils feel a bit weaker. (Blood Lamp vs. Lightning Focus, Air Sigil vs. Uprising Focus, etc).

Rituals are awesome, and definitely as much investment as other magic mod equivalents (or more).

Haven't messed with Spells, mostly because the new ones are so complex to craft (and not documented yet), and I don't know why I haven't tried the older spell system yet.
Haven't tried the Well of Suffering thing yet, so I can't comment on how OP/not-op it is either.

All in all, it doesn't seem overpowered, and it does take a lot of investment and work to get most of the "goodies". It's actually a slightly better set up of a magic system (for me) then Thaumcraft, just because I enjoy building structures and collecting resources more then I like research.



What the heck is "zerging" in this context?

 

[ThatOneSlowking]

I haven't played with everything yet but ...

Alchemy- Seems pretty balanced, it's actually pretty hard to make a super-potion more complicated then a long duration/potency one, and it takes a lot more effort & resources then vanilla.

Altars - Seem well balanced, if anything I'd say it's actually a bit too hard in the Tier 1/2 range to craft many things because you can't use many runes. Tier 3/4 seem completely fine, haven't tried Tier 5 yet because I haven't killed a bunch of Withers.

Tools - Also well balanced, The bound sword seems to be the strongest weapon in my pack, but only just barely. The other Bound tools are crazy good, but so dangerous I only ever make the pick, and then I rarely (and Carefully!) use it.

Armor - The blood armor set actually feels a bit strong compared to the rest, but I've never used MPS or Quantum armor either, and not excessively so. It's actually frustrating you can't put flight into it somehow, but I believe that's on purpose. Void sigil in the armor doesn't seem to do anything (I thought according to Ako it removed Void fog), but the rest are good.

Sigils - Again, totally fine compared to say Thaumcraft Wand Foci. Actually compared to them, (most) Sigils feel a bit weaker. (Blood Lamp vs. Lightning Focus, Air Sigil vs. Uprising Focus, etc).

Rituals are awesome, and definitely as much investment as other magic mod equivalents (or more).

Haven't messed with Spells, mostly because the new ones are so complex to craft (and not documented yet), and I don't know why I haven't tried the older spell system yet.
Haven't tried the Well of Suffering thing yet, so I can't comment on how OP/not-op it is either.

All in all, it doesn't seem overpowered, and it does take a lot of investment and work to get most of the "goodies". It's actually a slightly better set up of a magic system (for me) then Thaumcraft, just because I enjoy building structures and collecting resources more then I like research.



What the heck is "zerging" in this context?

Im assuming zerg rush

 

[James_Grimm]

Im assuming zerg rush

Ya. I know what that means in Starcraft, but since I can't plant a bunch of Zerglings to harvest for blood in MC, I'm not getting how it applies to Blood Magic.

 

[KillerRamer]

What the heck is "zerging" in this context?

Basically, it's where you would set up your bed to an altar to die, and quickly respond to use up your life in order to gain lp. It's basicly kamikaze for lp where the deaths don't matter... HC it would never work... anything where you had endless lives.. yeah your good. But honestly I feel like stopping them from doing that would be a bit harsh... It's their prerogative to do so.. and there are better methods.. get a sacrifice knife, get a small farm for mobs/ animals, BAM lp for days.

 

[madnewmy]

A few things I thimk is OP:

Zurg's rush (maybe when the player dies it empty it's altar?)
Witch, as stated above
How easy it is at tier 4-5 versus tier 1-2 to advance and make runes. I mean, when you get a tier 4 speed/self sacrifice or speed/sacririce/well you can make more and more altars then more and more speed/sacrifice/well and have infinite LP in the same time you get from tier 1 to 3
How tier 5 is so much harder then tier 4 (make tier 4 harder kofkof)

Didn't play with alchemy yet!

Ritual of magnetism need an range upgrade to compare with other quarry method

Sigils are awesome and fairly balanced! (Except you can't use the bonemeal application of green grove in a sigil of holding )

 

[Zenthon_127]

Honestly, BM doesn't feel that OP without Witch spam. I'm not going to take that strategy into account, nor Zerging which honestly is a terrible idea anyway (any serious method like mob farms is better). The tools matching the power level KAMI's feels a bit off, though. IMO Bound Armor isn't even that great because you have to turn particles off for it to even be useful and NO TRUE FLIGHT (this is huge).

So far the only part of the mod I've really had trouble with isn't to due with OPness at all, it's actually how steep the jump from T2 to T3 stuff is. T2 is basic sigils and the Orb is dirt cheap while T3 is Bound Tools/Armor, most rituals, high LP costs, etc.

 

[James_Grimm]

A few things I thimk is OP:


How easy it is at tier 4-5 versus tier 1-2 to advance and make runes. I mean, when you get a tier 4 speed/self sacrifice or speed/sacririce/well you can make more and more altars then more and more speed/sacrifice/well and have infinite LP in the same time you get from tier 1 to 3
How tier 5 is so much harder then tier 4 (make tier 4 harder kofkof)

If blood crafting stayed at the same relative difficulty level as Tier 1/2 I would find Blood Magic much to aggravating to enjoy as much as I do. Getting a mostly upgraded Tier 3 altar was when I hit the "sweet spot" for having fun with the mod. Tier 4 automation made it a non-issue in a way I rather enjoy, because at that level of investment in any tech-mod I would have automated the creation of basic components as well.

That's just my personal opinion granted.

Apparently I need to test out this Witch thing, since that seems to be the point of agreement for most. I feel like there should remain some method of constant automatic LP generation after that's been nerfed, otherwise several of the rituals (Green Grove, Serenade of the Nether, etc) are less useful

 

[AlfieSR]

I'm thinking that if I added screams into the mod, some people might not be too happy! :3

Use the various Civilian screams from HL2. Lots of mods use and it ends up being comedic instead of horrifying.