In your next Direwolf20 build, will you bother with IC2?

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DoctorOr

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If you think about it, Buildcraft in itself hasn't really changed all that much either. Its mainly Thermal Expansion and other mods that makes it feel new and fresh again. In my opinion, gregtech is to IC as TE is to BC.

Uh. No it isn't. TE is to BC as IC2 is to IC2. TE provides the low level "first hour of play" type machines. Ore doubling, furnace, cables (that don't suck), energy storage.

It also adds some unique machines which are in that same first-hour style, but required a liquid infrastructure in place and thus were impossible to implement without relying on BC until Forge adopted that API (which happened December of last year)

What it's not, is anything like GregTech which is middle to late game activity. The Tesseracts are a new exception to that first-hour design of the mod.
 

raiju

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Uh. No it isn't. TE is to BC as IC2 is to IC2. TE provides the low level "first hour of play" type machines. Ore doubling, furnace, cables (that don't suck), energy storage.

It also adds some unique machines which are in that same first-hour style, but required a liquid infrastructure in place and thus were impossible to implement without relying on BC until Forge adopted that API (which happened December of last year)

What it's not, is anything like GregTech which is middle to late game activity. The Tesseracts are a new exception to that first-hour design of the mod.

Completely missed the point more than I ever thought possible.

You are comparing a general mod (IC2) with a mods additions from other devs (BC-TE/forestry) Gregtech does exactly that to IC2. It's an mod-expansion. Just like TE.

The reason people aren't often making new beginnings for IC2 is because that is the exact basis that TE uses with the buildcraft system. What you CAN'T fairly do is compare IC2 base to BC with all mods, which most in this thread are doing.
 
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jumpfight5

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You've got a point, but we're talking about FTB in general. Even though the OP says Direwolf20, people are bringing in GT in as an example. Which is fine, but it doesn't really have a say all too much. TE is a part of FTB, as is Forestry. So we'll always add those on, because they're part of the subject. IC2 is alone in Direwolf 20, so it can't really be given that "edge".
But yes, buildcraft has been the same...for a while.
 

DoctorOr

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Completely missed the point more than I ever thought possible.

More like you didn't make the point you seem to think you did. You attempted to compare an early-game mod for a middle to late game mod. And failed at that comparison.

You are comparing a general mod (IC2) with a mods additions from other devs (BC-TE/forestry) Gregtech does exactly that to IC2. It's an mod-expansion. Just like TE.

TE is not a addon to BC. It works just fine on its own and does not need BC installed. Forestry and Railcraft are _also_ not addons to BC, and work fine standalone.
 

raiju

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More like you didn't make the point you seem to think you did. You attempted to compare an early-game mod for a middle to late game mod. And failed at that comparison.



TE is not a addon to BC. It works just fine on its own and does not need BC installed. Forestry and Railcraft are _also_ not addons to BC, and work fine standalone.

Sorry, they aren't technically addons to BC but until the latest addition of liquiducts (and even with to some extent) they don't function properly without. Didn't know that we were being intentionally obtuse here.
 
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DoctorOr

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Sorry, they aren't technically addons to BC but until the latest addition of liquiducts

That's like saying IC2 doesn't function without BC. Since it has no pipes or liquid movement whatsoever.

BC itself is actually very little: Pipes, Auto Crafting Table, Quarry, Filter, and Builder - and if you look at actual usage it's really just Pipes+Crafting Table+Quarry. The power system is an API that doesn't rely on BC itself being installed (Which is itself a good reason for it to be more widely used than EU power)
 

raiju

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I've never had problems using IC2 without BC in the past. There are plenty of ways of porting things around, including *shock horror* mods intended to interact with IC2 directly, like TE and forestry.

Yes, BC is a widely used more for piping and such. I'm not sure how that's relevant and if anything detrimental to your point that TE and forestry are standalone. IC2 functions much better solo than forestry, and until recently TE would fall apart on a larger system without the newer additions.
 

DoctorOr

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I've never had problems using IC2 without BC in the past. There are plenty of ways of porting things around, including *shock horror* mods intended to interact with IC2 directly, like TE and forestry.

Nether of those interact with IC2 directly, they use the generalized item API available in Forge to eject items into adjacent containers. It treats an adjacent inventory just like any other inventory. A macerator is the same as a chest.

IC2 functions much better solo than forestry

That's a matter of opinion

until recently TE would fall apart on a larger system without the newer additions.

But this is just factual error.
 

MagusUnion

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Most of what's happen to IC2 is the fact that it has become lethargic in innovation... Alot of the new mods right now are pushing onto IC2's doorstep because the one staple component that IC2 had (ore doubling) has been replicated on machines of a different energy system. IC2 also suffers from gated resource syndrome, meaning that if you lack a specific resource (usually rubber early game), you can't take advantage of the mod...

(This is why I'm against all forms of 'resource gate-ing' as a whole. At least Alba doesn't react to that kind of news like Flowerchild did, lol...)

But there are several advantages to having IC2 in your modpack. The first is the quicker energy spinup time. Unlike engines, Generators (of various sorts) push out their power as rapidly as they are allowed to. While BC pipes can circumvent this problem, there is a noticeable delay in engines creating energy than with generators..

The second part, which I can't really stress enough, is the fact that IC2 is much more renewable than BC power. While there are renewable forms of MJ with Redpower (and to an indirect extent, Charcoal + Tree Farming), IC2 still has an impressive renewable system of energy. While Gregtech likes to nerf the crap out of that aspect, I do honestly think that, for the moment, renewable energy with IC2 is superior early game. Once mid game hits, you then divert into Forestry Biomass, or something else that's a bit more robust. But bear in mind, if you need a constant stream of power because you lack alot of disposable resources, then early game renewable energy (not just solar, mind you) can be a godsend. Right now, I'm on a server in a village with 3 windmills at 125 height. It's pretty nice for a low footprint, LV energy source...

Third, IC2 still has infinite tool usage. I'm sure this will change as more and more mods encroach this point, but the ability to charge a Tool back up to maximum usage is incredible. When it was first introduced, it changed the game of Modded Minecraft entirely. Think about it: a renewable iron/diamond pick that you can constantly use. Of course, since the advent of the enchanting system, this ability has come under fire as the IC2 dev team dis-taints for enchantments, but it's nice to have something that only costs energy to use as I need to mine my way out of caves and such.

IC2 has aged well as Minecraft as evolved, but even I can admit it's starting to show its age. However, it's still a good system to base add-on's off of (Gregtech, CompactSolars, CompositeArmor, AdvMachines), just like how Buildcraft has several additions to it that allow for additional modification (course, the only reason they work like they do is due to how 'open source' Buildcraft is in general). I wouldn't write off IC2 just yet. It still has great add-on's and such to make enough of a draw to that mod, which that alone would have been unheard of just a couple of years back. I say, give some time for IC2 to come up with new and clever things. They don't push out content as rapidly as everyone else, but that may have more to do with the number of hands in IC2's development than anything else...
 
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Neirin

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I like the BC system of pushing energy rather than pulling it, but I also like IC2's simple but effective voltage system. EU storage options are also better than what is currently available in FTB for MJ (though it's just a matter of time until something gets added). I think that a year or so down the line once people add on to the BC power system a bit more I'll prefer that, but right now I find myself in situations where I want both systems (not just the machines associated with them).

Also, complete side note: there really isn't an equivalent to the recycler that I can think of. I'm a serious pack rat, so I'd probably just fill up endless barrels with cobble (rather than void pipe it) on the off chance I might use it one day if I didn't have some other use for it like feeding a recycler.
 

jumpfight5

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Also, complete side note: there really isn't an equivalent to the recycler that I can think of. I'm a serious pack rat, so I'd probably just fill up endless barrels with cobble (rather than void pipe it) on the off chance I might use it one day if I didn't have some other use for it like feeding a recycler.

That's going to happen to me. I have Igneous Extruders just pumping Stone out, and knowing me, I'll sit there with 950 stacks of stone...Unfortunately I have more Igneous Extruders creating scrap for me...aww. Can I turn off TE machines with Redstone? Because I'll have infinite sand, stone brick, gravel, and flint if I don't. *sighs*
 

Lambert2191

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Can I turn off TE machines with Redstone?
just configure it so that it doesn't have an output face, then it will just sit there with a stack of stone inside it. Do that 3 times, one for cobble/stone/obsidian and you have a stack on hand of each :)
 

jumpfight5

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just configure it so that it doesn't have an output face, then it will just sit there with a stack of stone inside it. Do that 3 times, one for cobble/stone/obsidian and you have a stack on hand of each :)

But I want MOAR! I want a barrel on hand for each, just in case I go building. I've tried to use cobblestone to get me as many resources as possible. What I can get is
  • Cobblestone
  • Stone Brick
  • Cracked Stone Brick
  • Stone
  • Sand
  • Glass
  • Gravel
  • Flint
  • Sandstone
  • Saltpeter
  • Lava
  • Copper
  • Tin
  • Tungsten
  • Electrum
  • Gold--two ways!
  • Silver
  • Diamond
  • Scrap
  • Scrap Boxes-->...a lot of stuff (shouldn't count, can be done with anything)
  • UU Matter-->...a lot of stuff (shouldn't count, can be done with anything)
  • Whoops, forgot Obsidian!
And there's some more I forgot.
But cobblestone can get you a lot of things, for a lot of energy, of course. And that's cobble alone, no other materials required. And that will get you some useful building materials.
 
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MachineMuse

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Firstly, let's please not devolve into a macerator vs. pulverizer argument again. Please. That said, onward:

Direwolf20's pack seems to be slowly but surely drifting away from needing IC2. The big benefit of that tech tree used to be that it had flat out superior armor, tools and energy storagr. But now MFFS works on MJ, Thermal Expansion has given us lots more ways to generate, store, and move power. We also have Modular Powersuits which on the next DW20 pack update will not only have flight equal to a gravity suit (it's already nearly as good, it just needs the Flight Control) but a MJ-compatible power system and TE-based recipes.

It seems like in DW20 once that update gets pushed, IC2 will be firmly an odd-man out in the pack:
  1. Thaumcraft gives great tools, weapons and armor that work well with enchants. Its ore detector is different from IC2's but arguably a lot more useful, the mining laser is closely matched by the Wand of Excavation and Wand of Equal Trade, and investing in that tree also gives you really powerful automation tools.
  2. Modular Powersuits gives a Gravity Suit competitor (that also has early-game options similar to or superior to the jetpacks) that takes less extreme resources (but a lot more mundane resources) and a pretty amazing tool. Please note, these can be book enchanted, and the author knows about this and doesn't seem to mind. If you can get haste onto your MPS boots they are incredibly good.
  3. Steves Carts and Buildcraft give really amazing auto-mining options. Thaumcraft has one that is unique and powerful (though very, very expensive) as well. The mining well and OD/OV Detector seem somewhat anemic by comparison.
  4. TE and Railcraft give amazing power generation and storage options.
Am I missing something? At this point it seems like the only really neat thing IC2 offers is cheap, explosion resistant building materials and very convenient tools for making complex structures. Its autominer is nice, but not super necessary. The IC2 machines can be faster but they're obviously not "necessary". What's left for it in the DW20 pack?

Err, not sure whether you still think this, but modular powersuits were never supposed to be enchantable and newer versions will strip any enchantments that you do manage to get via book enchantments. I've added a bunch more modules to compensate though :)
 

Guswut

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So, the main reason to go IC2 really appears to be if you have GregTech installed. Otherwise IC2 is a bit of a cast on. This appears to be the case from playing around with TE, and seeing that, sans GregTech, the world really is, well, simpler.

~~~

Err, not sure whether you still think this, but modular powersuits were never supposed to be enchantable and newer versions will strip any enchantments that you do manage to get via book enchantments. I've added a bunch more modules to compensate though :)

Dave has mentioned a few times that he thinks that enchanting electrical tools/armor is silly I believe.

Although I don't understand why we don't allow for enchanting electrical devices. The blending of science, and magic? The ultimate work of the ages? A good reason for us to finally use silver? Eh, better just leave the two worlds as two worlds instead of one world, so as to allow for distinct different paths for longer gameplay. So it goes.
 

MachineMuse

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Dave has mentioned a few times that he thinks that enchanting electrical tools/armor is silly I believe.

Although I don't understand why we don't allow for enchanting electrical devices. The blending of science, and magic? The ultimate work of the ages? A good reason for us to finally use silver? Eh, better just leave the two worlds as two worlds instead of one world, so as to allow for distinct different paths for longer gameplay. So it goes.
Where tech and magic meet (imho) is its own niche entirely. Azanor seems to have coined the term 'magipunk' for this, I think. Looking at the Magitech Armor in FF6, the Asura in Guild Wars, the Gnomes in the Warcraft universe.. it really has its own distinct flavour that is different from just taking a technological item and slapping an enchantment on it.

Maybe there will be more ways of adding a dash of magic to MPS in the future :)

You can think of it as being something along the lines of 'enchantments affect the flow of energy through an item, which might disrupt the sensitive electronics' or something like that.
 
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KirinDave

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Err, not sure whether you still think this, but modular powersuits were never supposed to be enchantable and newer versions will strip any enchantments that you do manage to get via book enchantments. I've added a bunch more modules to compensate though :)

Fair enough! I wrote that before you made that change. :) Before the leg upgrades, haste was pretty necessary to remain competitive.