I like my old IC2

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KirinDave

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Jul 29, 2019
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Umm... only one problem with that. Plutonium. You can use it to make Radio-Isotope fuel, or you can use it to make MOX fuel. Pick one. So, either you can get 1-16 EU/t 'free' or you can quadruple your EU output from your reactor. Umm... I don't know about you, but I'm going to go for 'quadruple my reactor output'. Well, as long as that doesn't break the 2k barrier.

If you're running a UU station, the MOX is the right call. Most other things, the Radio Isotope fuel is right. MOX fuel makes reactors very efficient if used correctly.

And MOX reactors just flat-out perform better on every metric. In fact, to make RI Fuel, while your MOX Reactor is going, you're actually going to need to have a spare reactor running full-blast just to make the plutonium necessary to MAKE the RI Fuel.

You can do that.

I mean, sure... you can do that, but where are you going to PUT it? You've already blown the top off of your power cap, which means it needs to be on a completely different system.

It's cheaper once you have the fuel to use that to power your factory and other things as opposed to stepping down your reactor. Replace your old infrastructure.

You can't spam those because it requires multiple cycles from a full up reactor to get enough Plutonium to make enough RI Fuel to get ONE RI Generator cranking out 16 EU/t. Multiple cycles. At two real-time hours (and change) each. That's an enormous time sink there.

It's like one or two evenings chunkloaded. Or a week of reasonably dense gameplay if you aren't good at automating. And unlike Thaumcraft's time assassination minigame, you can do other things.

Say you've got MFSU Carts carrying millions of EU each running halfway across the server via some sort of portal system. However, the limitation here is the EU/t it can load and unload, which is 2k and change. Even if you had an MFSU Cart hitting the Power Unloader flawlessly without a single tick wasted, that is the maximum amount of energy you can transfer. It doesn't matter how many MFSU Carts you have in the queue, they simply won't unload faster than that.

You can parallelize this max load and diffuse it throughout your base. Very few things take 2048eu/t and those things can be near your reactor.


Yes, you can move stored energy much faster, but you can't get access to that stored energy any faster, and you can't load it up any faster either.

It doesn't matter though. You're really mad about this, but since nothing individually can consume it and it's trivial to parallelize, why does that matter? You're mad a theoretical consumer that doesn't exist can't be fed over a speed limit.

The new ic2 meta for nukes is this: if you go over 2048/t you've done it wrong. It goes boom. Design accordingly?
 

CascadingDragon

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Jul 29, 2019
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Kirin, you are doing a great job of showing me how niche a mod IC3 currently is.
Between the pseudo "realism" they attempt to enforce, and slapping your wrist by going as big as you can, I can't see the fun in IC3. Why shouldn't I be allowed to design a reactor that outputs, say, 2080eu/t, and use every drop of power? I just don't see why they would show you the sky, but tell you 3 blocks high is the limit, so to speak.
 

Zenthon_127

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Jul 29, 2019
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The problem is that almost every other mod has decided that central power systems are good and that power systems shouldn't have such arbitrary limits. Before you yell BC, its limit is 2.5x(?) higher than IC2 thanks to EnderIO and there are things that actually need that much power (*cough*lasers*cough*).

In all, IC0.2 has no place in a modded environment where cross-mod interacts are becoming more and more commonplace.
 

KirinDave

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Jul 29, 2019
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The problem is that almost every other mod has decided that central power systems are good and that power systems shouldn't have such arbitrary limits.

TE3 is agnostic to this call. Buildcraft certainly doesn't. Mekanism doesn't. EnderIO sort of does, I guess? It has giant batteries.

In all, IC0.2 has no place in a modded environment where cross-mod interacts are becoming more and more commonplace.

I don't feel that way. That said, it's certainly a harder experience than Mekanism. Setting up TE ore tripling that is smart and adaptive and programmible is about as hard.
 

ShneekeyTheLost

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Dec 8, 2012
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If you're running a UU station, the MOX is the right call. Most other things, the Radio Isotope fuel is right. MOX fuel makes reactors very efficient if used correctly.
I don't ever see myself in a situation where I would choose 16 EU/t over 2k EU/t.

It's cheaper once you have the fuel to use that to power your factory and other things as opposed to stepping down your reactor. Replace your old infrastructure.
I think there may be a miscommunication here. What I am talking about is: Once you have your reactor converted to MOX, you are using all the plutonium to re-make more MOX cells. You don't get any more 'extra' plutonium. If you are wanting to run a MOX reactor, AND build up a supply of plutonium for RI Generators, you will need to build another reactor for the exclusive purpose of generating plutonium.

It's like one or two evenings chunkloaded. Or a week of reasonably dense gameplay if you aren't good at automating. And unlike Thaumcraft's time assassination minigame, you can do other things.
This isn't my experience, but YMMV. Then again, I mostly play SSP rather than on servers, so I don't see as much 'uptime' as a server setting would.

You can parallelize this max load and diffuse it throughout your base. Very few things take 2048eu/t and those things can be near your reactor.
You are right, the only thing that can actually take 2048 EU/t is the UUM machines. Which means everything else has to go through a snaking mess of transformers and cabling and more transformers and more cabling.

For 1 line of 2048 EU/t, you will need a) 1 transformer and 4x gold cables, then b) 4 more LV transformers and 16x copper cables, in order for your machines to not explode. You have, at the end, 16 different cables, all snaking around, and you need to be absolutely certain that none of them cross, which means painting, and hoping you didn't miss a spot...

And explosions to follow when you screw up.

It doesn't matter though. You're really mad about this, but since nothing individually can consume it and it's trivial to parallelize, why does that matter? You're mad a theoretical consumer that doesn't exist can't be fed over a speed limit

The new ic2 meta for nukes is this: if you go over 2048/t you've done it wrong. It goes boom. Design accordingly?
The problems I have are as follows:

* Nuclear reactors now have a hard cap they did not previously have. There was an effective cap on energy generation, but not a hard cap. Now they do.

* If I want to power an entire base, I have to build a decentralized power network rather than a centralized power generation plant with an energy network.

* It is not unreasonable, what with overclockers and such, that an entire base's energy supply will exceed 2048 EU/t. However, I can't provide that much power from a single source, it has to be broken up into multiple parts. I cannot build a power plant which powers my whole base by itself.

* If two wires cross accidentally anywhere, and more than the allotted power accidentally goes through somewhere... BOOM. And the tangle of wires only gets worse, not just on a binary scale but on a Log4 scale. You can't just have one wire in and one wire out anymore. It has to be one wire in and four wires out.

You can't see why I am frustrated. I can't see why you think it's a good thing. I suppose we will have to agree to disagree on this topic.

I can understand a lot of the changes IC2-EX has done. Some of them I'm of two minds about, like the hammers. I don't feel such a steep resource bleed was necessary, although I like the idea of the metal plates and wires. The old refined iron was a matter of necessity to avoid crossing recipes. Back when it was instigated, it was about the only way to do it. Now you have metal plates, which are a more interesting solution. You use cutters on plates to make wires, which also makes sense. What does not make sense is the mayfly lifespan of these tools, but I can at least appreciate the mechanic.

The new machines... eh, if you want more than doubling of your ores, then yea... I can understand the complexity required. And I really liked the elegance of re-purposing the otherwise ignored canning machine.

I absolutely love the new nuclear reactor mechanics. MOX is an excellent example of player skill paying dividends. Reactor design is like a minigame, those who are good at it can reap rewards. RI Generators... eh, I don't see why I would ever build one when I can put that plutonium into a MOX reactor, but for those who aren't familiar with reactor design and don't want to risk a MOX reactor... okay, I can see it. I guess. Get enough Plutonium together, and you've got 16 EU/t out of a single block, so you've finally got a passive energy generation system which can beat out solar, hydro, and wind... at a price.

But the new wiring mechanic is just too... counter-intuitive and harshly limiting. For me, it is a deal-breaker. It caused me to walk away, slowly shaking my head.
 
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Physicist

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Jul 29, 2019
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Ok, clearly one of you loves IC2 and the other thinks it's obsolete. Luckily, we have universal configs, so both of you can Have it your way®.

Yes, IC2 is different now, and enables new things, like more than 2x ore multipliers, but not 5x, while continuing it's theme of craft chains for tech.

Furthermore, nuclear continues to be the realm of those that like to tinker, while solar or other mods are the realm of the set-it-and-forget-it but not hardcore crowd.

Did I sum both of you up? Probably not in your minds, but I think it's resolved for everyone else.
 

PsionicArchon

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Jul 29, 2019
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While I'm far too tired to construct a well educated rant of my own, I am coherent enough for this short post.

Perhaps I am an exception to the rule. I run a private mod pack. I host a private server amongst a few friends. I have on several occasions attempted to branch out and, register my pack by going through the endless chain of permissions required to do so. It's a lot of work, let me tell you. Balancing a pack with server play in mind is no easy task. Players LOVE to find exploits and, more often than not, refuse to inform an admin of said exploit.

One thing us server admins/pack creators have to consider, at times above all things is consistency/longevity. Can I expect a given mod to update in a reasonable amount of time. I've been using IC2 for (three?) years now and, it hasn't missed a beat. Talk of phasing out IC2 always gives me the willies. I do not want to be forced to rely on a power mechanic that stagnates nor do I wish to base a server world around such a mechanic.

I don't share the belief that IC2 has changed for the worse for a myriad of different reasons I'm far too tired to mention. Much of that has to do with the -->Experimental<-- tag. To me this suggests that the product we're using now may vastly differ from the final end result.

I would also prefer if we didn't balance one mod based upon how easily we can acquire (insert object here) from another mod. Not all of us use the same configuration of mods with the same set of configs (Shocking!).
 
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Shakie666

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Jul 29, 2019
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If you don't like it. Don't use it.
When did we say we didn't like the IC2 changes? We said we didn't like the way wires work. We're fine with the other stuff.

Besides, not using something you "don't like" doesn't actually solve the problem, it just forces you to ignore it.
 

GPuzzle

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Jul 29, 2019
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You know what would fix the generator-spam problem?

A MID TIER GENERATOR.
That's were IC2 screws itself up. They had no mid tier, they have now.
But they don't have generators. C'mon, we can think of an effective mid tier generator. If we can do it, we will solve half of IC2's problems.
 

GPuzzle

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Jul 29, 2019
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I said "mid tier generator", not "spam so much we'll be able to recreate the spam sketch from Monty Phyton".
 

Physicist

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Jul 29, 2019
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The thing is, Nuclear Reactors aren't just a late-tier generator. You don't have to fill every slot in those things, and you might even save some time using a 128/t reactor over building and making enough charcoal for 13 regular generators for 2.5ish hours.

edit: adjusted tone.
 
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ShneekeyTheLost

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The thing is, Nuclear Reactors aren't just a late-tier generator. You don't have to fill every slot in those things, and you might even save some time using a 128/t reactor over building and making enough charcoal for 13 regular generators for 2.5ish hours.

edit: adjusted tone.
Go back and look at what it takes to make even a zero-chamber 100 EU/t reactor. Now go see what it costs to make 10 x regular generators which can produce the same energy burning charcoal. Since there is now zero difference between 10 generators spamming 10 EU/t and one reactor generating 10 EU/t anymore, and the generators are not only cheaper but also don't run on a non-renewable (or, for now, partially renewable) resource, most people only see the nuclear reactors as being viable on the high-end output. Which is decidedly late-game. Particularly if you are looking at plutonium-based nuclear fuel.
 

KirinDave

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Jul 29, 2019
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I don't ever see myself in a situation where I would choose 16 EU/t over 2k EU/t.

When I'm running a remote base or small outputs. I actually have 2 of these max loaded in my SSP world, it powers a small factory station I use at a bee outpost. It also replaces some generators used elsewhere on trickle charge mode because, um, moving 2keu/t is expensive and almost never necessary.

I have had and seen ONE line move that much, and it was for transforming into chunks usable for a UU generator and consumer.
 

Templar Thano

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Jul 29, 2019
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Alright I am not sure what version of IC2-exp is bundled with the 1.6.x DW20 and horizons; I am currently using build #307 along with Gregtech (may change some stuff). Glass fiber cables are able to transmit 8192 eu/t and the HV transformer is able to accept 2.1 billion EU/t
 

Lathanael

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Jul 29, 2019
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IC2 Exp for me currently has 3 culprits:
  • No real mid-tier generators - there are one chamber nukes but even those are expansive compare to just spamming small generators
  • Too many Transformers needed to get EU to split down HV/UHV to usable levels
  • No landline like transmission of energy. I mean come on we can transport ~400kV at ~2kA over hundred and more km and only lose about 6% of the Energy in real life.
The wire system itself is good and much more predictable than the old one ever was. It is just the implementation or rather the none existing of higher tier stuff which is lacking.

What i'd like to see in the future if IC2 are 2-3 decent mid-tier generators. A multiblock transformer which can transform ANY amount of eu/t in to a given amount of eu/t out, maybe even different outputs at different levels. And UHV landlines like transport which can transport vast amount of energy(higher than 8192eu/t) over a longer distance.