I like my old IC2

[KirinDave]

I would respectfully disagree that the new version is less torturous. If anything, I consider it the polar opposite.

... I read your post and was going to fisk it, but... I decided not to. I'll state this really simply: I've done the math really carefully. In RR, the only reactor type to not be amped substantially is the IC2-2 reactor. IC2-2 power is quite good if you leave your baggage behind and do what it asks you to do.

I see a lot of these complaints, and they read to me like someone who is mad that you cannot play IC^2 2 like IC2. And I get that is frustrating, but... Doing it that way relied on a substantial pair of design flaws in old IC2. In new IC2, you can move substantial power in a reasonable space. If you also use Railcraft (which gives additional benefits to the IC2 ecosystem) then you can move MFSU carts with tons of power, and have a more interesting system to boot.

IC2-2 doesn't favor centralized power plants unless you lean on item transport. IC2 only favored them because its wire model was very curious (and glass fiber cable was unbalanced). IC2-2 favors a reactor for a factory and then using the decay products from that to distribute smaller but maintenance-free power throughout your base.

Banging your head against the differences and calling that a failure is strange to me. You say, "The design is bad for these technical reasons" but then state play mechanics like your distaste for them is itself damning. It's one thing to say you don't like this direction, but it's another entirely to try and imply that mechanically it's inferior and the old way was "better."

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

... I read your post and was going to fisk it, but... I decided not to. I'll state this really simply: I've done the math really carefully. In RR, the only reactor type to not be amped substantially is the IC2-2 reactor. IC2-2 power is quite good if you leave your baggage behind and do what it asks you to do.

I'm having some trouble seeing this. Other than Nuclear (which got an amazing boost), GeoGens got a nerf (which was needed to bring them in line with the other generators). However, EU demands significantly went up with no additional means of generating that power before nuclear. Which means 'spam more generators'. I would have really appreciated a couple of different types of generators, maybe a mid tier generator somewhere between the Generator/GeoGen's 10 EU/t and the Nuclear Reactor's 420 EU/t (highest possible for a Mk. I without MOX) or higher.

But really, the problem here is with the energy transmission. The new cable logic is just... I can't wrap my head around why anyone thought this was a good idea. It is contrary to a good idea. It is the antithesis of a good idea. On the one hand, you are demanding people use over 128 EU/t just to keep their manufactorum going, then on the other hand, you sharply curtail how much EU/t can go through the wiring. More importantly, it makes it impossible to leverage the amazing potential of nuclear reactors, because there isn't an energy transmission system capable of handling that kind of output.

I see a lot of these complaints, and they read to me like someone who is mad that you cannot play IC^2 2 like IC2. And I get that is frustrating, but... Doing it that way relied on a substantial pair of design flaws in old IC2. In new IC2, you can move substantial power in a reasonable space. If you also use Railcraft (which gives additional benefits to the IC2 ecosystem) then you can move MFSU carts with tons of power, and have a more interesting system to boot.

I think you seem to be missing my point here. The MFSU Carts can store a ton of power, but it can only transmit 2048 EU/t. I can set up a nuclear reactor to produce over 8k EU/t. But nothing can transmit that much energy, so it is a complete and total waste to build it. It punishes building large and complicated systems of energy generation.

There is zero benefit to producing more than 2k EU/t per station. Anything beyond that, and you are just wasting resources trying to produce power that won't ever be able to be transmitted.

It's not a matter of transmitting over long distances. It's a matter of not being able to get it out of the reactor period. For MFSU Carts to be viable, you have to be able to get it TO the MFSU Cart.

IC2-2 doesn't favor centralized power plants unless you lean on item transport. IC2 only favored them because its wire model was very curious (and glass fiber cable was unbalanced). IC2-2 favors a reactor for a factory and then using the decay products from that to distribute smaller but maintenance-free power throughout your base.

My problem is a much more fundamental one than item transport. The devs have put in a ceiling of energy production and said 'here and no further'. The problem isn't long-distance energy transportation, the problem here is getting that energy INTO your energy transportation system.

Banging your head against the differences and calling that a failure is strange to me. You say, "The design is bad for these technical reasons" but then state play mechanics like your distaste for them is itself damning. It's one thing to say you don't like this direction, but it's another entirely to try and imply that mechanically it's inferior and the old way was "better."

I see where you are coming from, everyone plays the game differently and it might work for some play styles. I just see the massive boost given to nuclear reactors... then see how completely impossible it is to leverage that, and all I see is one great big huge 'U MAD BRO'.

I've been doing nuclear reactor design for IC2 for years now. I remember CASUC reactors. I never really got into them because of the hidden EU costs involved in the setup for making all that ice, but I respected the out-of-the-box thinking that generated it. Then the 'new' reactor designs came out. It was actually pretty amazing, you could get up over 400 EU/t out of a Mk. I! Before, I think the cap was around 140 or so, and Mk. I's were mostly kid's toys to get yourself familiar so you could set up a Mk. II or III setup. I invented the CRCS reactor design, and came up with the Tower of Power as ways of trying to leverage nuclear power, so it wasn't so completely overwhelmed by GeoGens and HV Solar Arrays. Now we've got MOX and some new means of energy generation... and they swung a nerf bat at the wiring infrastructure so that while it is possible to generate enormous amounts of power... it's impossible to leverage it, and thus meaningless to actually do so.

That's what gets me. The potential to generate that kind of energy was given, and the ability to use it was taken away. trollface.jpg

 

[Shakie666]

While i'm excited for the new IC2 stuff, I agree with Shneekey about wires. They should have stayed as they were. At the very least, the limit should be raised to 8192eu/t (for glass fibre).

Regarding reactors though: can't you just hook up multiple wires to a reactor, and have the eu get evenly distributed along each wire? Or does it not work like that (if it doesn't it should).

 

[GPuzzle]

The problem that happened in IC2 is more evident now.
No mid-tier generator.
Need more stuff?
Spam watermills/windmills/geothermals/solars/generators.
Nothing good.
It's even more apparent. On one hand, you've got those who produce stuff for 10/t.
On the other, a behemoth that's a sink of resources, but blows every single on of them out of the water.
And nothing in between.
Any ideas?

 

[KirinDave]

That's what gets me. The potential to generate that kind of energy was given, and the ability to use it was taken away. trollface.jpg

Still not sure why transforming and splitting the power isn't an option. It costs diamonds? So what! I got 3 stacks in my AE and I'm not even trying. Diamonds aren't a thing.

 

[Hoff]

Still not sure why transforming and splitting the power isn't an option. It costs diamonds? So what! I got 3 stacks in my AE and I'm not even trying. Diamonds aren't a thing.

It's more the sheer space necessary and number of wires you have to have routing around awkwardly.


And my take on the new IC2 wiring is basically taking all the limitations of RotaryCraft and Buildcraft, adding explosions, making it more awkward to work with, and adding nothing to alleviate it.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Still not sure why transforming and splitting the power isn't an option. It costs diamonds? So what! I got 3 stacks in my AE and I'm not even trying. Diamonds aren't a thing.

Because there is nothing that can split more than 2k EU/t. To be able to fit into an HV Transformer, it needs to be 2048 EU/t or less, or else Explosions. This is a hard cap on how much energy I can produce from one location. And it's yanking on Nuclear's chain because now you can actually MAKE that kind of EU, right when you can't use it.

Again, we're talking about interface from the reactor itself. Getting it elsewhere is exceedingly complicated and requires dealing with 4^x wires at every iteration, but it's certainly possible. What is NOT possible is getting more than that much out of your reactor to begin with.

 

[Zexks]

Crops are perfect. They should be their own mod.

They need a significant numbers adjustment. Having to follow rules like the following:
Location
Level 245 and above, swamp biome, NO EXCEPTIONS. Growing the same crop below level 240 shows a SIGNIFICANT difference in "growability" (not to be confused with growth rate). "Growability" is a complicated theory that I will discuss later

From here
Is a bit over the top. If you look at the rest of the link, it exposes the basics to a really good mod idea, but not something that was well vetted. The weed-be-gone flag is also another thing that should be looked at.

If it were a separate mod it would get a lot more attention. Luckily there are others out there that already cover most of what crops can do.

 

[KirinDave]

Because there is nothing that can split more than 2k EU/t. To be able to fit into an HV Transformer, it needs to be 2048 EU/t or less, or else Explosions. This is a hard cap on how much energy I can produce from one location. And it's yanking on Nuclear's chain because now you can actually MAKE that kind of EU, right when you can't use it.

You could make that EU before.

Again, we're talking about interface from the reactor itself. Getting it elsewhere is exceedingly complicated and requires dealing with 4^x wires at every iteration, but it's certainly possible. What is NOT possible is getting more than that much out of your reactor to begin with.

So you don't do that. Why does this bug you? I don't get mad that TE3's engines only differentiate on efficiency. It's a design decision. And one that more faithfully models electricity, to boot!

And it shakes up the nuclear design community. Efficiency per fuel is more important than ever before. Trickle reactors will now be The Thing. Maxing efficiency at transmit caps will be the thing.

And who knows? Give the devs feedback you want another tier of wire. I am sure they will give you something absurd to use.[DOUBLEPOST=1386713861][/DOUBLEPOST]

It's more the sheer space necessary and number of wires you have to have routing around awkwardly.

Nearly all mods are going for more space in-world. You will hate BR and Blood Magic. You literally cannot optimize for space on those.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You could make that EU before.

Not without CRCS/Condensator technology.

So you don't do that. Why does this bug you?

Because they gave us the ability to do so, then told us we couldn't. They buffed nuclear so we could generate those kinds of numbers... then prohibited us from being able to make use of it.

It's like... let's compare it for a moment to progress in an MMO. Let's say there was this quest. Most people thought it was broken, you suspected otherwise. You toiled and worked through the various expansions, always searching for clues. You used counter-intuitive NPC interaction, and got further in the quest than anyone previously could. Then the devs release a new expansion, and in the list of updates, included is your quest. They finally announced that they have put in the final part of the quest, and it can now be completed.

The reward for the quest is unusable by any class, and despawns when you log out.

It is the most epic troll to have ever occurred in the history of Modded Minecraft.

 

[KirinDave]

The reward for the quest is unusable by any class, and despawns when you log out.

It is the most epic troll to have ever occurred in the history of Modded Minecraft.

You really need to calm down. You're hung up on nothing. You're letting your primal loss aversion take control.

Look at what it is. Not what it could be or what you want it to be. Reactors now have new rules. They're harder to use. But they also have huge benefits for using them (free infinite manageable portable power for life).

 

[dtech100]

It's still somewhat useful alongside an AE system, as you can upgrade the machines' processing speed and thus speed up AE's auto-crafting. It's actually the only thing I still use IC2 for - and I predict I'll be ditching it completely once TE introduces machine upgrades.

I was going to write this text. Right now i use IC2 cause speed upgrades. But when TE3 machines will be having speed upgrades i will leave this mod for good. Also Tinker's Construct tools can work on TE3 energy. And TE3 added new fancy stuff and IC2 have changed the process line but simply didn't add new stuff - only changed it a bit.

 

[Hoff]

They need a significant numbers adjustment. Having to follow rules like the following:
Location
Level 245 and above, swamp biome, NO EXCEPTIONS. Growing the same crop below level 240 shows a SIGNIFICANT difference in "growability" (not to be confused with growth rate). "Growability" is a complicated theory that I will discuss later

From here
Is a bit over the top. If you look at the rest of the link, it exposes the basics to a really good mod idea, but not something that was well vetted. The weed-be-gone flag is also another thing that should be looked at.

If it were a separate mod it would get a lot more attention. Luckily there are others out there that already cover most of what crops can do.

Those rules only exist as per absolute maximum values which are not necessary to get huge use out of them. That is also one of the reasons I would like someone like Binnie to do it as it could be changed to be a more variable type thing similar to how bees are. The numbers are irrelevant with reference to a new mod; they would undoubtedly change. By perfect I meant the design of them.

 

[Shakie666]

Look at what it is. Not what it could be or what you want it to be. Reactors now have new rules. They're harder to use. But they also have huge benefits for using them (free infinite manageable portable power for life).

I assume by the bit in bold you're referring to the radio-isotope generators or whatever they're called. The energy produced by these shouldn't be the primary objective of using a nuclear reactor, it should be the energy produced by the reactor itself, which is being handicapped by the 2048 eu/t per (very expensive) wire. Before reactors were held back by problems with the reactors themselves; now they're being held back by problems with the wires. If you want to maintain realism, then why can't we craft fat wires that can carry 8192 eu/t without melting?

For even more realism, the power provided by radio-isotope generators really shouldn't last forever; it should run out after about 20,000 minecraft years.

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I assume by the bit in bold you're referring to the radio-isotope generators or whatever they're called. The energy produced by these shouldn't be the primary objective of using a nuclear reactor, it should be the energy produced by the reactor itself, which is being handicapped by the 2048 eu/t per (very expensive) wire. Before reactors were held back by problems with the reactors themselves; now they're being held back by problems with the wires. If you want to maintain realism, then why can't we craft fat wires that can carry 8192 eu/t without melting?

For even more realism, the power provided by radio-isotope generators really shouldn't last forever; it should run out after about 20,000 minecraft years.

Also, at an absolute maximum of 16 EU/t, considering the steep resource investment and timesink involved, it seems kinda... meh. Remember, these things will need plutonium, so that means you've already got reactors running. At that point, I'd be looking at MOX fuel to quadruple the effectiveness of my reactor, not produce a piddling 16 EU/t. For the price of the fuel required by the RI-G's, you could have 3200 EU/t out of a MOX reactor and still get a 100% return on your plutonium. You can have your renewable 16 EU/t. I'll take a renewable 3,200 EU/t.

Oh, wait... almost a third of that output is completely unusable... nevermind.

 

[KirinDave]

I assume by the bit in bold you're referring to the radio-isotope generators or whatever they're called.

Yes.

The energy produced by these shouldn't be the primary objective of using a nuclear reactor, it should be the energy produced by the reactor itself,

So this is a major change and one of the key reasons IC2 nuclear is not broken and useless anymore. Any and every mod proposing powergen faces this fundamental problem, "How do I incentivize using the bigger, more complex/higher-risk power plant over just spamming lots of introductory power plants?"

IC2 has a fantastic, and as far as I am concerned, authoritative answer to this problem. Using the big awesome power plant run your massfab, you also produce by-products that make subsequent builds have don't-care power.

You say "it shouldn't be!" and I can't help but interject, "Why can't it be both?" The Nuclear Reactor rains down power on you. It makes your replicator go at max speed without having to build in charge cycles, and that's great. But it also makes it so you can replace your generator or geothermal system with a drop-in solution that is final and awesome and an achievement that is far superior to the compact-solars vision of the answer to power woes.

And conveniently, eventually it leads to a culmination where you can build a system that produces an endless stream of infinite power indistinguishable from a nuclear reactor at full tilt. This is a GT fusion reactor in easymode. A power treadmill with a clear exit. It's an incredibly elegant to the obnoxious question, "If generators are cheap and wood is infinite, why don't I spam those?"

I am not sure if IC2 will introduce a power transmission medium at 8192eu/t or not. I know you can move power at rates higher than that (amortized) with item transport moving energy storage mediums.

 

[Zenthon_127]

Nukes are fine now, but when you're not bring much to the table besides one power gen.....well, there's your problem. And really, why would you go with IC2 ore processing when you can go with Dartcraft Macerator fueled by a lava Force Generator into a TC4 Infernal Furnace?

UUM is next to useless next to the powerhouse that is bees, the ore processing is barely on par with other mods at best and power transport is horrific. Why should I use IC2?

 

[Physicist]

Bees are excluded by some play styles. I've been trying to get way into them, but I'm not doing it right or something.

UUM gets it done.

Likewise, tech perceived to be OP is excluded by some play styles.

 

[Don_Quijote]

Somehow I don't get it, why people always compare mods, by what they gain in ore processing... If that's really all that people care about, there should be a mod gaining 1000 ingots per ore. vanilla creative will still be the faster and I don't like the idea of converting suvival to creative, by adding even more powerfull features en masse...
The same goes for infinite power and transportation, there is no such thing in reality, that's why engineers work mostly on efficiency... A generator producing 2048 and sustaining itselfs is very OP anyway, with this limited output it's just a little less OP... I know minecraft is a game and it's surely not about mirroring the real world, but I like mods with challenges, which still limit the gain.
I play unleashed, but I will never use tesseracts and some other devices which just make 10 other mods obsolete like in this case every single rail...
I like the ballancing of IC2 and would choose the system over BC and others. Still it isn't perfect, but as there are at least 5 mods doing nearly the same, none of them is.
It would be cool, if some of the modders would work together, instead of doing the same work ten times, for instance I like the covers of BC and I like burning fuel for a start,
but I don't like burning something troughout the whole game, as in reality it is ineffective and nuclear power is the most advanced and probably most clean...
If I could, I would power everything with EU, as conversion sucks and is ineffective as well.

What would be cool too, would be a lamp working with EU, a real lamp, no torch with an enormous battery and the surface of 1qm...

Comparing bees to UUM is somehow ridculous. In my case, I am no apiarist and if I see a bee in real life, I search for something to smash it or a flamethrower if it's a nest...
Bees could offer the godmode of minecraft, I wouldn't use them, that's why alternatives are good and they don't need to be esactly the same.
But anway, thats like some people which install linux just to get away from windows and complain about how linux doesn't work like windows->epic fail...

 

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes.



So this is a major change and one of the key reasons IC2 nuclear is not broken and useless anymore. Any and every mod proposing powergen faces this fundamental problem, "How do I incentivize using the bigger, more complex/higher-risk power plant over just spamming lots of introductory power plants?"

IC2 has a fantastic, and as far as I am concerned, authoritative answer to this problem. Using the big awesome power plant run your massfab, you also produce by-products that make subsequent builds have don't-care power.

Umm... only one problem with that. Plutonium. You can use it to make Radio-Isotope fuel, or you can use it to make MOX fuel. Pick one. So, either you can get 1-16 EU/t 'free' or you can quadruple your EU output from your reactor. Umm... I don't know about you, but I'm going to go for 'quadruple my reactor output'. Well, as long as that doesn't break the 2k barrier.

You say "it shouldn't be!" and I can't help but interject, "Why can't it be both?" The Nuclear Reactor rains down power on you. It makes your replicator go at max speed without having to build in charge cycles, and that's great. But it also makes it so you can replace your generator or geothermal system with a drop-in solution that is final and awesome and an achievement that is far superior to the compact-solars vision of the answer to power woes.

Yea, unfortunately your Plutonium is either going to RIG's or it is going to MOX. You won't have enough to do both for a very long time. And MOX reactors just flat-out perform better on every metric. In fact, to make RI Fuel, while your MOX Reactor is going, you're actually going to need to have a spare reactor running full-blast just to make the plutonium necessary to MAKE the RI Fuel. I mean, sure... you can do that, but where are you going to PUT it? You've already blown the top off of your power cap, which means it needs to be on a completely different system.

And conveniently, eventually it leads to a culmination where you can build a system that produces an endless stream of infinite power indistinguishable from a nuclear reactor at full tilt. This is a GT fusion reactor in easymode. A power treadmill with a clear exit. It's an incredibly elegant to the obnoxious question, "If generators are cheap and wood is infinite, why don't I spam those?"

You can't spam those because it requires multiple cycles from a full up reactor to get enough Plutonium to make enough RI Fuel to get ONE RI Generator cranking out 16 EU/t. Multiple cycles. At two real-time hours (and change) each. That's an enormous time sink there.

I am not sure if IC2 will introduce a power transmission medium at 8192eu/t or not. I know you can move power at rates higher than that (amortized) with item transport moving energy storage mediums.

Not really. Allow me to provide an example:

Say you've got MFSU Carts carrying millions of EU each running halfway across the server via some sort of portal system. However, the limitation here is the EU/t it can load and unload, which is 2k and change. Even if you had an MFSU Cart hitting the Power Unloader flawlessly without a single tick wasted, that is the maximum amount of energy you can transfer. It doesn't matter how many MFSU Carts you have in the queue, they simply won't unload faster than that.

That's your choke point right there.

Same problem with an EnderChest or Itemducts and Tesseracts to move completely full MFSU's around. They can only unload power at 2k/t. So that's your cap on energy transmission.

Yes, you can move stored energy much faster, but you can't get access to that stored energy any faster, and you can't load it up any faster either.