I know I'm probably beating a dead horse here but.. Dartcraft.
- Thread starter MichaelAbbott
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The problem with Dartcraft is not that it makes things too easy, it is that it is put together and integrated with mods that make things too difficult.
Buildcraft in general makes power storage a nightmare and combustion engines are not fun when they blow up because you accidentally messed up water placement. A lot of things just aren't worth it, and that's how Thermal Expansion got so popular besides replacing IC2 ore processing. Dartcraft's tools may be ridiculous, but then again, without it I find that most mod tools aren't fun to use (Tinker's Construct tools are fun for a while, but then you either have to cover them in moss or deal with only 10K EU storage on them eventually).
Buildcraft in general makes power storage a nightmare and combustion engines are not fun when they blow up because you accidentally messed up water placement. A lot of things just aren't worth it, and that's how Thermal Expansion got so popular besides replacing IC2 ore processing. Dartcraft's tools may be ridiculous, but then again, without it I find that most mod tools aren't fun to use (Tinker's Construct tools are fun for a while, but then you either have to cover them in moss or deal with only 10K EU storage on them eventually).
It hasn't been covered yet, but you do so by first making some force armor(aka leather armor run by a force rod). The mining things is very secondary to me with it to the sheer hilarity of using it for actual hand to hand combat.
"What Ho! I am a Gentleman and I find your usage of bladed weapons and black powder munitions cowardly! I declare you my Detested Malcontent, now draw your pitiful steel and prepare to be laid flat, you ruffian!"
*Cue me punching said Ruffian 15 meters into the air then sending him 50 meters back as he dies from two punches*
Bonus points for infusing any piece (but preferably all) with Bane (aka a spider eye), Wing (currently just a chicken feather, update to 1.6.X and it's a Roc Wing), Camo (potion of Invisibility), Damage (Claw, gathered from bats), Fortune (you need a Fortune for that, obtained from Fortune Cookies, made from adding a piece of paper to a cookie), and if you have the option, Power2(IC2 only, need a energy crystal), but adding anything else you want doesn't hurt if there is room. A full suit of this allows you to look unarmored, fly like a badass for a long time, castrate creepers and endermen, do 16 damage a punch(assuming target has no armor), get extra stuff when mining and kicking ass, and this armor not only never breaks, but can power other things you have that use EU(with the IC2 upgrade).
Also yes, this is how I play as well. I wish more people played like this as well. I do think about Endgame, but in a different light. Its not "Well, I won this map, now what?" it's "I have enough stuff to build the thing I was going to make. Now lets do that!" and then no longer think I've hit "Endgame" because I only think about it when getting stuff for a build as to me, getting the stuff for my next build is my progression. "I have gathered enough of X to Build Y, now to do so and dick around until I think of what I should build next" is much more fun to me then "I need X to build Y so that after I've done A I can start building B for C with the goal of making D as soon as possible", but again, different strokes for different folks. I enjoy my relaxing and having fun, if they want to have a stroke and need a quadruple bypass, that's none of my business. Or, I guess, making their Minecraft experience into EVE Online, as it were.[DOUBLEPOST=1379647131][/DOUBLEPOST]
THIS! THIS THIS A THOUSAND TIMES THIS!
What Dartcraft did was show the modded community how utterly terrible most MJ power generation is and show how few people know how to properly utilize TiC and MPS. For example, let's look at how the Force engine actually affected VIABLE power sources:
-MFR BioGen? Still great.
-Magmatics? Still pretty good and stupidly easy to automate.
-Steam? Still the best MJ power source (plus it can come from most of the others on this list).
-Trees? Still great.
Nothing aside from that was really even a viable power source before Dartcraft. In addition, Dartcraft tools are a downgrade to TiC because of Manyl-er, Manahmanah, and Force Armor isn't as good as MPS if you know how to work it at all.
-MFR BioGen? Still great.
-Magmatics? Still pretty good and stupidly easy to automate.
-Steam? Still the best MJ power source (plus it can come from most of the others on this list).
-Trees? Still great.
Nothing aside from that was really even a viable power source before Dartcraft. In addition, Dartcraft tools are a downgrade to TiC because of Manyl-er, Manahmanah, and Force Armor isn't as good as MPS if you know how to work it at all.
For the very cons you listed a capitalistic-esque system works for mods.
A mod dev has no valued personal gain to be made from their mod or any changes and balancing therein. They do it simply because they want to which is likely because they want to help people enjoy their vision of their mod and minecraft in general. Because we as "consumers" have nothing to lose by using or trying a product and are not bound by any sort of contract is what makes it work.
Of course that does not prevent mod devs from lying, cheating, stealing, etc. but they have no real incentive to do so. The only reason mods are made publicly is for users enjoyment. Competition in such an area where the ones competing stand to make no personal gain and compete solely for their consumers is how the system should work.
I understand that "OP" is a completely subjective term, but really. People need to quit circlejerking on Dartcraft. 'Nuff said.
Vajra is the most powerful tool you can craft as part of the Gravisuit mod. With it, you can break almost anything (except bedrock, warded stone, force fields) with one hit. You can even silk-touch any block by right-clicking. Most mobs will also die in 1 hit (endermen in 2 hits). It does consume a ton of power with each use, but by then you're practically on god mode.
Compared to the cost of making a Gravisuit, it's relatively cheap. And with MPS armor with an elite battery, it will go a looooong way.
Why I mentioned that, even though this is a Dartcraft-related thread, is because people keep complaining about game balance, when the core game is not meant to be balanced in the first place. I could not stress this point enough.
Don't believe me? Then why not switch to creative mode. Why is there a creative mode? Because Minecraft is, first and foremost, a creative endeavor (and I highly recommend you read more on Minecraft's history). And a full Gravisuit actually provides you the means to get creative-mode-like capabilities, while staying in survival.
Sure, mods give us the technical challenge, but at the end of the day, when you've collected enough resources, you practically play in creative mode anyway. Only difference is
- You can die.
- Flight may or may not be available to you.
- Mob management.
Seriously, if someone complains about any mod's game balance, I suggest try playing with a pure-GT based world, on the highest difficulty setting with Minecraft hardcore mode enabled. That might change your mind.
Honestly It's not about balance it's about fun, most mods now are trying to balance for server play which is causing the mods to not be fun (See: MPS/ic2 experimental for useless balancing issues) Some mods remember that fun is number 1 and while mods like dartcraft are at the other end of the spectrum of gregtech it's not fun for everyone simply because it's TOO easy. The real balance comes into play when you are intending a mod to be used for cool builds and the ease of use. Dartcraft and Gregtech are 2 extremes and both are not fun for me, I'm not a person who finds fun in frustration and tediousness but I also dont find the fun in being handed everything.. it is why I still play survival and never cheatmode unless I am building in a test world.
I also suggest you try playing in creative mode with everything handed to you and see how long that lasts before you get bored..
With one fail swoop you decided all on your own that a vast number of people that build exclusively in creative must get bored simply because they didn't have to work for the materials? I would easily say that it is far more tedious and difficult to properly build in creative rather than muster up a dirt shack or hole in the ground and come out of it as a god. Building is far more difficult that any tech tree of any mod because it forces you to rely solely on your own creativity.
No I didn't say it was boring to just start playing but it doesn't last as long as if you were actually surviving. I find some of my best works are just working with what I have, even with a quarry I dont get THAT much diamond to build willy nilly with it whereas in creative you build with whatever materials look cool instead of actually putting an extra amount of thought into it. You get creative when you have to survive and honestly out of the worlds I've done creative and the worlds I've done survival I am always coming back to survival as I'm more satisfied with the builds as I actually did the work to have them done. Creative is there for testing builds or building for adventure maps or other builds that wouldn't normally be possible with survival. For whatever reason people seem to forget that when you work for something the rewards are greater and the satisfaction you get is more then just being handed everything and plopping it down. Yes this game is about design and creative mode gives an unchained outlet to that but why do you think a majority of the people on this forum will be surprised when someone does an elaborate build in survival as opposed to creative?
At the end of the day it's about playing the game however you like and if you are happy with your build then awesome, just dont expect all others to find it as cool as you do when you tell them it was created in creative mode instead of survival.
At the end of the day it's about playing the game however you like and if you are happy with your build then awesome, just dont expect all others to find it as cool as you do when you tell them it was created in creative mode instead of survival.
This is hardly worth even replying to at this point, but let me sum it up reeeeaaaaal quick for you:
From a Vanilla perspective, 98% of mods are "OP".
I like Dartcraft but I don't need it to be awesome, I have 50 other mods that can give me godlike power and the ability to possess effectively limitless resources. My current MP base runs primarily on an Applied Energistics ME Network (with a huge crafting core), Ultimate Hybrid Solars for power, BC quarries in Mystcraft ages and TE tesseracts to transmit power and items.
I never run out of anything, I rarely have to take more than a few steps from my base and with 108 pages to work with in my MAC I'm gradually programming almost any item I'd ever need to craft.
Oh, and the entire thing is protected by both a Calclavia MFFS force field and mob interdictor.
So by all means, please keep telling me how OP your Dartcraft tools and armour are while I sit perfectly safe in the lap of everything I could ever need.
OP my aching assets.
From a Vanilla perspective, 98% of mods are "OP".
I like Dartcraft but I don't need it to be awesome, I have 50 other mods that can give me godlike power and the ability to possess effectively limitless resources. My current MP base runs primarily on an Applied Energistics ME Network (with a huge crafting core), Ultimate Hybrid Solars for power, BC quarries in Mystcraft ages and TE tesseracts to transmit power and items.
I never run out of anything, I rarely have to take more than a few steps from my base and with 108 pages to work with in my MAC I'm gradually programming almost any item I'd ever need to craft.
Oh, and the entire thing is protected by both a Calclavia MFFS force field and mob interdictor.
So by all means, please keep telling me how OP your Dartcraft tools and armour are while I sit perfectly safe in the lap of everything I could ever need.
OP my aching assets.
I've built on creative and it actually takes longer to build than just in survival. Go figure.
Dartcraft doesn't just hand you things. Mods that do are things like MFR and EE3, but you don't see 6 page, uninformed circlejerk threads on THEM, do you?
Anyways, no need to complain about whatever "balance" Dartcraft lacks because it's already largely fixed in 1.6.
Dartcraft doesn't just hand you things. Mods that do are things like MFR and EE3, but you don't see 6 page, uninformed circlejerk threads on THEM, do you?
Anyways, no need to complain about whatever "balance" Dartcraft lacks because it's already largely fixed in 1.6.
Remember tho, you worked for all of that luxury but if you were starting off and handed that you'd not find as much satisfaction in it.
I'm probably the most aware of that person you'll ever meet; I argue that point with my other server-members very frequently (they all loved EE2, it's a sore point)
Yeah, I worked for it, but Dartcraft sure as heck didn't hand it to me.
To simplify my point further for you, with all of the options out there, no one mod is OP. They all are, with the possible exception of Bibliocraft =P Anyone who wants a vanilla-level survival challenge should probably play vanilla, or build their own mod pack which only includes aesthetic changes. Once you start adding in the high-end stuff from almost any mod the game changes completely.
Correct. And even in its 1.5 state Dartcraft doesn't exactly hand everything to you.
@Dorque: Bibliocraft adds bookshelves that give around double the level of enchanting value of normal ones
Well I never argued one was more op then the other I think the thread starter was, I was just mentioning that it's pretty op when you consider the work to fun ratio. Starting the game is easier with dartcraft and only becomes less op middle game when you do some of your best works, it's a lot like zerg rushes in Starcraft (1 not 2) you took a gamble on survival, you put all your eggs in one basket and there's a 50/50 shot it will work out. with dartcraft it's more like a 75/25 chance of survival.
I'm not defending or chastising it, I'm just saying it's not unfounded that 1.6 is getting the rework to help balance that issue
My comment still stands, you wouldn't be enjoying yourself as much if you didn't work for all of that without getting everything handed to you, not saying dartcraft hands everything to you it just makes things extremely easy beginning game.
I'm not defending or chastising it, I'm just saying it's not unfounded that 1.6 is getting the rework to help balance that issue
Correct. And even in its 1.5 state Dartcraft doesn't exactly hand everything to you.
@Dorque: Bibliocraft adds bookshelves that give around double the level of enchanting value of normal ones
My comment still stands, you wouldn't be enjoying yourself as much if you didn't work for all of that without getting everything handed to you, not saying dartcraft hands everything to you it just makes things extremely easy beginning game.
For whatever reason you seem to forget that actually building a challenging design in creative IS work and is just as rewarding as digging up materials and making contraptions in survival.
If you think this game is about showing off to others just how 1337 you are and how well you can power game or whatever else; you have a problem. For people that have a problem with things built in creative, well, their loss.
Part of the reason Dartcraft is so popular is because early game is normally boring as hell.
Really? I like that part, starting out with a clean slate, getting your first power supply going. Thinking if you want to go for magmatics, charcoal or biomass. I think it's a shame the force engine removes that choice.
I enjoy it too, but that's what my single player games are all about; I rarely build a permanent base in SSP at all.
To me, playing on a server is all about having other people around to come by and go "Wow, your stuff is cool." After all, it's pretty much LEGO. I would imagine most people play on a server to show off what they've done.
Just as an aside, I don't believe the force engine removes that choice at all... at the risk of sounding soooo very clichée for this forum... you don't have to use it.