I know I'm probably beating a dead horse here but.. Dartcraft.

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YX33A

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Sooooo.... since it's either in or it's out, you should have to choose whether it's in or it's out?

I don't understand your point here. "I only have the choice of playing with it or disabling it, so you should remove it or disable it for me." I'm sorry, but that's seriously what I'm taking away from this.

If you don't like it, don't play with it, you have the power to disable any mod you so choose.
Or add any mod you wish to use, for that matter. Thing is, what you're suggesting here is a very unpopular suggestion for some reason. No idea why either.
I guess people here on the FTB Forums don't feel comfortable with people reminding them how much free will they have. Either that or everyone here but me plays SMP on a server that doesn't care about the player's opinions.

Regardless, Dart Craft makes early game less boring, though somewhat more powerful, and somehow this means "OP" to pretty much everyone.

Wing is pretty powerful, lets not lie. In 1.6 it needs something that should make it more balanced. But other then wing, I haven't a clue why everyone is up in arms. "B-B-B-but the Force Engine is OP and it removes the option to use other things!" I think someone said (paraphrasing, of course). Yes, you can use Force Logs to get some Liquid Force and with that Liquid Force you can power that engine. But IIRC you need about ten force logs to make a bucket of liquid force. And lets not kid ourselves here, did the force engine kidnap your family and tell you "Use Force Engines for everything you use MJ for or I'll send you a piece of one of your family members in the mail a day until you do" after deleting the recipe for any other kind of engine? Of course not. Add Milk and you get what, 10 MJ/t? You'll burn through milk pretty quick, and liquid force isn't super long lasting either. So that's 10 MJ/t from one engine using what is intended to be the best fuel for it. With something extra which you won't have a good amount of unless you have some kind of automation system on hand, which means you need to consume MJ to keep it going.

But yes, people don't like being reminded (here at least) how much free will they have, and apparently can't look past the numbers when trying to build something.

I won't lie, I use Force Engines as well. Why? Because they seem less complicated to make (to me at least) then my first choice for early game MJ, the Clockwork Engine, and the only reason I feel that was is because for that I need a Clock. But I always have At Least one Clockwork Engine somewhere, even if it's just to allow me to add a emergency power generator to my AE Network. Actually, they are my Goto choice for emergency power.
 
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DREVL

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And thus the dead horse has been kicked, punched, shot, run over, resurrected, killed again, cremated, put on display, lost, found, mixed into cereal, eaten, pooped out, fertilized grass, eaten by another horse, that horse has been killed and kicked, and hopefully we're done.

DC in 1.6.2 is different. Vanilla is officially on 1.6.4 and we have snapshots for 1.7. Let's move on. ;)
Nope.
 

Enigmius1

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Jul 29, 2019
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This is completely ridiculous.
It's not ridiculous. You have to remember that mod devs don't make mods for specific mod packs. They can't say, "I know my mod will be used with mods <a>, <b>, <c> and <d> and so based on that I can assume the players will be able to do <things> and thus balance my mod around it."

Mod devs have to design their mods around the assumption that their mod is the only mod in use (unless they're designing it as an add-on to a specific mod, in which case they can obviously assume the presence of that mod as well.)

Mod A can be mostly balanced on its own and largely balanced in the presence of most other mods but completely out of whack with a tiny selection of specific mods. How OP would EE2 have been if it wasn't used alongside BC and fed with quarries? Ever try to assemble a tier 3 power flower with materials you mined yourself by hand?
 

DZCreeper

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EE2 made manual mining more effective than a fleet of quarries. You could use use an unbreakable diamond pickaxe and just dig in whatever direction your tier 3 diving rod pointed you. Not to mention, 2 uranium equaled a diamond and tungsten equaled 2. Using those 2 conversion and divining rods, you never ran low on anything.
 

Dorque

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Mod A can be mostly balanced on its own and largely balanced in the presence of most other mods but completely out of whack with a tiny selection of specific mods. How OP would EE2 have been if it wasn't used alongside BC and fed with quarries? Ever try to assemble a tier 3 power flower with materials you mined yourself by hand?

Two words, destruction catalyst.
 

zorn

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It's not ridiculous. You have to remember that mod devs don't make mods for specific mod packs. They can't say, "I know my mod will be used with mods <a>, <b>, <c> and <d> and so based on that I can assume the players will be able to do <things> and thus balance my mod around it."

Mod devs have to design their mods around the assumption that their mod is the only mod in use (unless they're designing it as an add-on to a specific mod, in which case they can obviously assume the presence of that mod as well.)

Mod A can be mostly balanced on its own and largely balanced in the presence of most other mods but completely out of whack with a tiny selection of specific mods. How OP would EE2 have been if it wasn't used alongside BC and fed with quarries? Ever try to assemble a tier 3 power flower with materials you mined yourself by hand?
What I meant is that it is ridiculous to think that new mods designing stronger items is inevitable and something we should all desire. Some people like dartcraft some like gregtech, neither is "wrong". But without configs to allow me to nerf OP items and mods, competitive players will drift to the strongest options and OP mods basically turn a pack of 80 mods into a pack of 3 or 4.

Think of any game with an OP item, it means everyone plays it and things get boring. Minecraft isn't a truly competitive game but even SSP people like to challenge themselves...otherwise they would play creative.

Mod authors also know their mods will be installed with others ... Seriously do you think blue dart thought vanilla players would just install his one mod?
 

Drawde

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Mod authors also know their mods will be installed with others ... Seriously do you think blue dart thought vanilla players would just install his one mod?
Yes, but WHICH other mods? Maybe someone's making their own modpack. Or maybe they just learned about modding and tried whatever mod they added first, without knowing what mod packs are? (Note that the latter is what happened to me, before I learned about FTB.)

Not to mention that other mods change. Maybe you expected your mod to be used with another, but right after posting your mod the other mod updated and messed up all the balancing you just did.

Or maybe balancing for one popular mod destroys the balance with another one.

You could even balance your mod for use with another one, only for that mod to become discontinued. And any effort to allow it to work on it's own requires completely rewriting your mod.

So many things happen out there that it's usually best just to put out a mod as is, and balance it later. Not to mention you're only one person and can't come up with all the things that the thousands of other players can, due to shear numbers.
 

YX33A

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Not to mention you're only one person and can't come up with all the things that the thousands of other players can, due to shear numbers.
Like how Squids are "OP" in 1.5.2 with MFR, right? I mean, seriously, that's not just creative, that's insane troll logic fueling a industry.
 

Enigmius1

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Two words, destruction catalyst.
The difference between a destruction catalyst and a quarry is that you don't have to be there while a quarry digs to get the spoils. You can't compare a destruction catalyst to 4+ full sized quarries running all the time. It's not about "one shot, which does more?" It's about passive EMC generation on a vast scale ALL THE TIME, and long before you would have had the resources to accomplish the same thing with the blocks provided by EE2 (ie. MK3 collectors).

What I meant is that it is ridiculous to think that new mods designing stronger items is inevitable and something we should all desire. Some people like dartcraft some like gregtech, neither is "wrong". But without configs to allow me to nerf OP items and mods, competitive players will drift to the strongest options and OP mods basically turn a pack of 80 mods into a pack of 3 or 4.
The point is that configs are a shit solution that have been out of favor with the rest of the computing world for all of about 2 decades now. Configs are a solution suited to a small fraction of the gaming population and everyone else just has to play what they get. Right now between the configs and the gawdawful mess that is keybindings in FTB packs, the last thing we should be doing is encouraging mod devs to take shortcuts on their way to pleasing people with "balance". It doesn't matter what competitive people do. If they want to make choices and then blame the outcome of their choices on the mod devs, that has nothing to do with being competitive and everything to do with being immature. If it's going to ruin the game for you based on your preferences, don't use it. That's maturity. That's making a choice as a mature individual that leads you to an outcome you will be happy with. Period. It's not even subjective, it's just life. Some guy is all up in the chat log dorking off about how much EU he's generating in his third hour on the server? Wee. Yippy for him. "Grrr, that makes me so mad I have to use things I don't want to use just to show him who really knows how to EU!"

You get what you pay for.
 

DoctorOr

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Regardless, Dart Craft makes early game less boring, though somewhat more powerful, and somehow this means "OP" to pretty much everyone.
My complaint with DartCraft has always been that it makes the "early game" the only game. You could get the best tools, the best armor (minus perhaps flight) all within an hour or so.

1.6.2 DartCraft has resolved this, but not by reducing the power of the items, rather by extending the "grind" to get them. This means that DartCraft is no longer an early game mod at all.
 

Zenthon_127

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1.6.2 DartCraft has resolved this, but not by reducing the power of the items, rather by extending the "grind" to get them. This means that DartCraft is no longer an early game mod at all.
I wouldn't say that. It's more of a similar situation to TiC, honestly, because once you hit about T4 or T5 in 1.6 you're pretty well off.
 

zorn

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Jul 29, 2019
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No
It doesn't matter what competitive people do. If they want to make choices and then blame the outcome of their choices on the mod devs, that has nothing to do with being competitive and everything to do with being immature. If it's going to ruin the game for you based on your preferences, don't use it. That's maturity. That's making a choice as a mature individual that leads you to an outcome you will be happy with. Period. It's not even subjective, it's just life. Some guy is all up in the chat log dorking off about how much EU he's generating in his third hour on the server? Wee. Yippy for him. "Grrr, that makes me so mad I have to use things I don't want to use just to show him who really knows how to EU!"

You get what you pay for.
So preople who like to compete are immature? But acknowledging that all of us get different things out of the game and we all have the right to voice our opinion is immature? Riiiiight.
 

zorn

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Yes, but WHICH other mods?
Yes this is exactly the problem. Which is why IMO configs are the only way to solve things. I was chatting with the dev of denpipes on reddit, he said the same thing. He offers in depth configs so that people can tailor the mod to how they like, and to fit with other mods.

The answer I get is that 'mod designers have their own vision'. Good for them! Im not going to play their mod though if it ruins my play experience with other mods. Configs let people who enjoy dartcraft play it as it is, and let others tone it down to fit their own playstyle.
 

YX33A

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No

So preople who like to compete are immature? But acknowledging that all of us get different things out of the game and we all have the right to voice our opinion is immature? Riiiiight.
OK, here's what I'm thinking here. Competing is good. After all, Competition Breeds Innovation. But his example of the guy in the chat log who is so proud to have so much EU in only 3 hours of game time isn't a example of Competition. That's a example of "E-Penis Bragging". No one cares that someone has 10000 eu/t after 3 hours of Minecraft. Generally speaking, we have our own shit we're working on. And while I wouldn't mind the feeling of self-satisfaction of 1-Up'ing his ass, I at least recognize how meaningless and hollow the feeling is.

Also you're confusing me here. First bit I quoted from you makes sense to me(different strokes). Second bit comes out of left field to me(though I admit Enigmius1 might have made a wall of text there that my mildly inebriated mind might not be able to read for all the words smashed together there). Regardless, I feel that you may be attacking Enigmius1 with that sarcastic "Right" at the end.

Also maybe I'm just not all there (which I know I'm not, but that's beside the point), but isn't one supposed to use only one negative in your argument? First one should have been a positive if one wanted to follow convention for that attack type. That is, the first point should have maybe switched around with your second one and you should have maybe agreed with that statement(or at least you should have agreed with that statement). Otherwise you've wasted that whole attack. For that to have been according to convention, you should have said
So acknowledging that all of us get different things out of the game and we all have the right to voice our opinion is mature? But preople who like to compete are immature? Riiiiight.
If you wanted to make sense, anyway. Otherwise it looks like a hollow attack on Enigmius1.

Regardless, we're getting off topic again. You guys know what happens when a topic about a touchy subject gets off topic. And while it wouldn't bother me to see another thread that was beating a dead horse that has been dead long enough that no one has much left to add to the discussion locked, I'd rather see it locked without people getting warnings or worse.
 

Zenthon_127

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Configs are band-aids to solve larger issues. Fix the problem, which is what Dartcraft did. The only configs Dartcraft really needs (to make people shut up at least) are boost values for the Force Engine, a whitelist for the Force Wrench and configurable tome upgrade values. Past that, if you're still having problems Dartcraft really just isn't the mod for you.

And why do you have to use Force Engines? Are you so short-sighted that you think there's nothing else out there or something?
 

Hoff

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No

So preople who like to compete are immature? But acknowledging that all of us get different things out of the game and we all have the right to voice our opinion is immature? Riiiiight.
That's a pretty nice straw man right there.

Actually did you even read what he wrote? He specified a specific group of people who are competitive which are those that whine about mods not having configs to make specific things unavailable or change the way they work or whatever other config they might want. Those people are the ones he specifically designated as those who are immature.

At least try to be reasonable when arguing.

Yes this is exactly the problem. Which is why IMO configs are the only way to solve things. I was chatting with the dev of denpipes on reddit, he said the same thing. He offers in depth configs so that people can tailor the mod to how they like, and to fit with other mods.

The answer I get is that 'mod designers have their own vision'. Good for them! Im not going to play their mod though if it ruins my play experience with other mods. Configs let people who enjoy dartcraft play it as it is, and let others tone it down to fit their own playstyle.
If a mod dev wishes for his mod to reach as many possible different playstyles while at the same time maintaining a loose vision of the mod he made then yes, that is the best way to go about it.

Not every mod dev wants that nor should they be pressured to. They have no reason to give in to any demands or wants made by players and that is their right. You have no right to make demands of them though because it is theirs. Mods do not belong to the community.

You seem to think that you not playing a mod is a big deal to the dev. Let me take the opportunity to completely and utterly clear that up for you. It isn't. Mods inherently aren't meant to fit every audience and playstyle because they fit the theme they were created to fit. If you're able to make use of parts of the mod but don't use others good for you! If you can't bring yourself to the maturity level to stop yourself from using something because you don't like it; the mod is not for you. Period. There is no changing or modifying it, it simply is not meant for you to play.
 
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Enigmius1

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No

So preople who like to compete are immature? But acknowledging that all of us get different things out of the game and we all have the right to voice our opinion is immature? Riiiiight.
Blaming others for the consequences of the choices you make is immature. Twisting words is immature. I was very clear: if you make a choice (ie. to "compete") that leads you to ruining the game for yourself, blaming the devs for it is immature.
 

Cronos988

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The point is that configs are a shit solution that have been out of favor with the rest of the computing world for all of about 2 decades now. Configs are a solution suited to a small fraction of the gaming population and everyone else just has to play what they get. Right now between the configs and the gawdawful mess that is keybindings in FTB packs, the last thing we should be doing is encouraging mod devs to take shortcuts on their way to pleasing people with "balance".
Care to elaborate that bit about the configs?
 

Hoff

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Care to elaborate that bit about the configs?
Games aren't meant to have shoehorns to make them fit the way anyone wants them to. That's why minecraft is just about the only real sandbox game that has actually succeeded. It's a nigh impossible feat to accomplish. Mods should not seek to please as many types of people and playstyles there are because they are almost guaranteed to fail.
 
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zorn

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Ok ok wait, something went wrong here. This is what im saying:

Some people like to compete, others do not. If a mod doesnt offer configs, i wont play it. I should be able to say that publicly if i want. Obviously mod devs dont have to listen, but if no one speaks up, nothing gets changed. Blue dart made changes due to the community complaining, right?

And if no one is supposed to make comments on mods... then we can put an end to the 1095949 gregtech comments on this forum? Have any of you guys ever stated your opinion on gregtech, good or bad? Then you are also guilty of bitching at mod devs. Its a forum, people discuss things.

I think people can play how they want, and i think in depth configs would make mods configurable to each player. And this is just my opinion, im not saying people who think differently are wrong. I dont think competitive players are immature, but neither are those who like dartcraft, and neither are those that play creative, or cheat half their items in. Everyone has fun in different ways. But I play a certain way, and ill post about my own likes or dislikes, and you can too.

How exactly is this wrong?


Blaming others for the consequences of the choices you make is immature. Twisting words is immature. I was very clear: if you make a choice (ie. to "compete") that leads you to ruining the game for yourself, blaming the devs for it is immature.
I have a biofuel'ed base right now that runs forestry stills, while i could use 1.4.7 bioreactors, pre nerf. This doesnt make me better than someone who always goes for the strongest option though, which is what your post implies, that people who want to use the strongest items cant say 'hey, id like some balance here!' Many people, IMO, like to say 'how much can i squeeze out of these mods, how fast can i go?' and its OK for them to post that they like to play that way, they can tell mod devs 'i wont play your mod' and they can choose to ignore it... but yu guys are bullying people into not voicing their opinion. And its pretty shitty.


If you can't bring yourself to the maturity level to stop yourself from using something because you don't like it; the mod is not for you. Period. There is no changing or modifying it, it simply is not meant for you to play.

NO! While I do what you say (ignore easy options like solar panels and choose other items for the fun of it), peopel CAN TRY TO SWAY MOD DEVS if they want to! You cant tell people what to think, or how to play! If people want to tell blue dart to nerf his mod til they are blue (hehe) in the face... they can! You dont get to tell people how to think! He can ignore them if he wants, but they can also voice their opinion. If he doesnt want to hear it DONT RELEASE THE MOD PUBLICLY.