and I know there are people who say "not another ______ thread just like the GT threads... jeez go away". I say to them, This thread is going no where. I know this, but it is going there alot faster and has more people involved than the other threads that pretend to be going somewhere. mods no lock k?
I know I'm probably beating a dead horse here but.. Dartcraft.
- Thread starter MichaelAbbott
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RedBoss, I couldn't have said it better myself. Indeed, without BC, there is no MJ and no Force Engine. How are you humoring me, then ?
As for Combustion engine, it was/is the highest on-demand power. It's now completely obsolete. As are all Steam Engines. As are Biogas engines.
As for engine spam, how does 12MJ/t or 16MJ/t change that ? You still need Force Engine spam to reach end-game MJ production levels.
Also, I thought HV Solars were taken for granted. If you're OK with DC, then surely you're OK with Power Convertors. HV Solars + Power Convertors produce more power with lower server load and it doesn't ape the mechanics of another mod just with bigger numbers.
Again, you made my point better than I could have : bigger numbers != innovation.
Innovation or positive contribution would be doing something like implementing a Force tech tree that compliments the mods it borrows from. Or, for instance, if DC added to the Forestry genome tech tree like how ExtraBees and MagicBees adds to Forestry Bees, that might be innovative, ex: Force Trees are difficult to breed and have higher sappiness than Mahoe and when *that* liquid Force is using in an engine (Force Engine or any other), you get higher output. But, to supercede and effectively obsolete Forestry Tree breeding is not innovative or making a contribution.
DC did indeed innovate well in at least one area : Ender Tots. Much more balanced and indeed fun way to get early-to-mid game Ender Pearls than 4 iron into EE3.
So, don't get me wrong, DC is not 100% bad nor 100% good. I just have complaints about the mod as a whole and the lack of good configs. If the Force Engine had better configs, for example, then Force Engines wouldn't be as dig of a deal.
Serious question that I don't know the answer to : why is Power Convertors disabled by default, but DC enabled by default in Unleashed ? Intentional or coincidence ?
As for Combustion engine, it was/is the highest on-demand power. It's now completely obsolete. As are all Steam Engines. As are Biogas engines.
As for engine spam, how does 12MJ/t or 16MJ/t change that ? You still need Force Engine spam to reach end-game MJ production levels.
Also, I thought HV Solars were taken for granted. If you're OK with DC, then surely you're OK with Power Convertors. HV Solars + Power Convertors produce more power with lower server load and it doesn't ape the mechanics of another mod just with bigger numbers.
Again, you made my point better than I could have : bigger numbers != innovation.
Innovation or positive contribution would be doing something like implementing a Force tech tree that compliments the mods it borrows from. Or, for instance, if DC added to the Forestry genome tech tree like how ExtraBees and MagicBees adds to Forestry Bees, that might be innovative, ex: Force Trees are difficult to breed and have higher sappiness than Mahoe and when *that* liquid Force is using in an engine (Force Engine or any other), you get higher output. But, to supercede and effectively obsolete Forestry Tree breeding is not innovative or making a contribution.
DC did indeed innovate well in at least one area : Ender Tots. Much more balanced and indeed fun way to get early-to-mid game Ender Pearls than 4 iron into EE3.
So, don't get me wrong, DC is not 100% bad nor 100% good. I just have complaints about the mod as a whole and the lack of good configs. If the Force Engine had better configs, for example, then Force Engines wouldn't be as dig of a deal.
Serious question that I don't know the answer to : why is Power Convertors disabled by default, but DC enabled by default in Unleashed ? Intentional or coincidence ?
See : Biogas Engine.
Also, the Combustion Engine has long been accepting Ice Shards for higher effective output. The Force Engine simply has bigger numbers.
I tell you one thing that needs to be changed as an energy option. peat engine output to ash. Stuff takes SO LONG to get. Would use it with multi farm given the availability of apitite and refine it with the ash. That whole setup is a vast waste of copper though...
A few devices (Therm. Fab., Rolling Machine) does not an entire mod make. Also, if you look at 1.6.2 as it is *now*, on-demand is back. BC4 pipes have engine auto-shutoff and the lack of Energy Tesseracts (so far) means on-demand, certainly for things like quarries. I'm not setting up a boiler at a remote quarry and Combustion Engines or Force Engines are looking pretty darn nice.
Not really. See, Forestry Tree breeding is needlessly complicated and irritating, which is why people don't like doing it. Forcing people to dick around with a bad (in their opinion) mechanic that isn't very fun (to them) is not innovation.
I couldn't agree more. I'd *like* to use Peat Engines longer into my playthrough, but they are a good example of not scaling well. The only config option I could find is in the <gamemode>.cfg files under configs/forestry/gamemodes:
~/ftb/config/forestry/gamemodes$ grep ash *
EASY.conf:# amount of fertilizer yielded by the recipe using ash.
EASY.conf:recipe.output.fertilizer.ash=16
EASY.conf:# amount of compost yielded by the recipe using ash.
EASY.conf:recipe.output.compost.ash=1
HARD.conf:# amount of fertilizer yielded by the recipe using ash.
HARD.conf:recipe.output.fertilizer.ash=0
HARD.conf:# amount of compost yielded by the recipe using ash.
HARD.conf:recipe.output.compost.ash=1
NORMAL.conf:# amount of fertilizer yielded by the recipe using ash.
NORMAL.conf:recipe.output.fertilizer.ash=10
NORMAL.conf:# amount of compost yielded by the recipe using ash.
NORMAL.conf:recipe.output.compost.ash=1
OP.conf:# amount of fertilizer yielded by the recipe using ash.
OP.conf:recipe.output.fertilizer.ash=32
OP.conf:# amount of compost yielded by the recipe using ash.
OP.conf:recipe.output.compost.ash=2
Looks like OP is double that of EASY. The default for Unleashed seems to be EASY. Man, I couldn't imagine playing Forestry on HARD and doing everything the same way.
I agree it's irritating, but it's not complicated and it's not difficult. With at least Fast pollinating bees, you can reach Lemon in a short time and Mahoe not long after. I clearcut, re-plant, and bonemeal when I reach the next tree species up the ladder.
I have to admit the MPS 'grafter' is a bit OP. It will force drop saplings even on un-mutated leaves. So, I can get 1 sapling of the new species, bonemeal, and MPS graft away as many saplings as I want and then clone them.
Also, you don't *have* to breed trees to get a lot out of Forestry and indeed most people don't, yet still get a lot out of it. The starter Apple Oaks provide adequate saplings, wood, and apples for 100's of MJ/t. Just a few farms is enough to reach 1000 MJ/t.
Only reason I did tree breeding is the challenge and to have 1 tree farm. I'm not at 1000 MJ/t range yet, but getting there. I need to improve my Mahoe.
As for innovating, I'm very glad you mentioned tree breeding. The only reason most people use bees beyond breeding a few species up the ladder is ExtraBees. If DC did to Forestry Tree breeding what ExtraBees machine does to basic Bee breeding, thus allowing wonderful bees like Pure, Rejuvinating, Soul, Hermit, etc.,. then DC would be applauded for truly improving an irritating mechanic.
Heck, you could even *copy* ExtraBees and call it ExtraTrees with similar machines and that would be cool enough.
But, to bypass all of that with a Tier 1/1.5 (it's sort of "bred" from an Oak sapling, yes) tree is not innovative.
Despite the fact that this is a topic started by someone who knows that they're beating a dead horse (and aren't there like a dozen threads for this very discussion already? Even at the moment?) I still like Dart Craft for a few reasons. First off, the Force Shears. Even if you don't put Rainbow on them (which you should) you still can harvest feathers and leather from chickens and cows without killing them. To me, that's enough reason for me to keep the mod installed. But then there is also the Force Wrench (incoming shitstorm?) which I like because I can relocate things such as my Apiary Chests without making a massive mess. Yeah, it's prone to fucking up maps, but I play SSP and don't care if I have a accident or even a "accident" and ruin something on a map, because in that case, I go "Oh well, new map time!" and move on.
Yeah, some bits are pretty damned powerful("lawl mining ardite and cobalt in the nether by punching it with my armor on" comes to mind), but even so, I find it very fun ('sup creep. Oh, you looking to 'splode my stuff? Wa-TAH! Eat a bane fist. Feel free to move in now that I have forced you to life in endless suffering). But IIRC, the mod was designed to be Convenient. So in the end, I can live with having a very powerful set of things at my grasp because I don't have to use it all.
Also,
After all, I try to run my bases on "The Rule Of Cool" when I can do so.
I find it sad that so many people care only about the numbers. Forestry is nice, I like bees, but unless I have my Oblivion Frames on hand, I sure as hell won't be doing much cross breeding on a map. But again, that's how I play my game. You can play yours any way you want, and I shall do my game my way. Anyway, it's Talk Like a Pirate Day here, and I need to get some Pirate stuff in case my dad shows up.
Yeah, some bits are pretty damned powerful("lawl mining ardite and cobalt in the nether by punching it with my armor on" comes to mind), but even so, I find it very fun ('sup creep. Oh, you looking to 'splode my stuff? Wa-TAH! Eat a bane fist. Feel free to move in now that I have forced you to life in endless suffering). But IIRC, the mod was designed to be Convenient. So in the end, I can live with having a very powerful set of things at my grasp because I don't have to use it all.
Also,
Irritating, to me, doesn't even begin to describe how I feel about both Tree Breeding AND Bee Breeding. The fact that in order to get "At least Fast Pollinating Bees" you have a decent amount of work cut out for you, I wouldn't even touch Tree Breeding unless I had to. Do I power my base with Forestry Trees? Fuck no. I do way stupider and more fun power systems. Yeah, I Could use Forestry Trees to generate "1000 MJ/t", but that is, again, boring to me. I'd rather reinstall Harken Scythe and NetherStuffs and power everything with the souls of those I have slain, honestly. Would I be able to "easily" get 100 MJ/t? No. Do I care? Nope.
After all, I try to run my bases on "The Rule Of Cool" when I can do so.
I find it sad that so many people care only about the numbers. Forestry is nice, I like bees, but unless I have my Oblivion Frames on hand, I sure as hell won't be doing much cross breeding on a map. But again, that's how I play my game. You can play yours any way you want, and I shall do my game my way. Anyway, it's Talk Like a Pirate Day here, and I need to get some Pirate stuff in case my dad shows up.
I like bee breeding, but everything else about dartcraft is pretty accurate, it was made for fun, maybe not balance. I love this mod and it actually is a lot of fun
Stupid nerfs like 2 planks for 1 wood is not the goal and slowing down tech progress is not the goal, per se. My goal is avoiding short-shrfting the tech content of other, well-established mods that DC borrows from and indeed requires that have enjoyable mechanics that's the issue. Veteran players don't/won't/shouldn't care much. However, as new players come on the scene and very good content from other mods gets ignored because it's "too hard", that's the issue.
My fear is tree breeding, for instance, will never get improved properly since Force Trees are so OP and the Combustion, Biogas, and Steam Engines will not be updated since they are now so under-powered relative to the Force Engine. Is their respective devs' response to leap-frog the Force Engine ? Probably not. Those devs will probably ignore DC.
In MC, there's no benefit in rushing to "the end game" when there really is not much end game content there, relatively speaking. Once you've been there and done that, it comes more about the journey than the destination.
Do I want DC removed ? Heck no. Do I want better and different default configs ? Absolutely.
Yeah, I don't get it either. According to my math 1 sapling from one of my blue mahoes is worth over 10 times the MJ of a force log (even before considering ethanol can be used in a boiler), and in addition I also get over a stack of logs per tree that can be used for more power whereas force saplings are pretty much only worth macerating for dirt.
It works very well in a multiplayer environment, because my approach doesn't involve disabling mods or changing configs. Each person chooses the mods and specific items/machines that support the way they want to experience the game. I don't need a server admin telling me how to play. Frankly, I very much dislike being on a server where someone else has disabled a mod or item because it was 'OP' and apparently nobody on the server was capable of exercising restraint in not using it. I don't look to other people to protect me from myself, and that's why I don't need configs and unilateral changes to mods in order to be able to enjoy the mod packs. I'd much rather mod devs invest their time squashing bugs and adding new features that "balancing" for people who generally don't even know exactly what game balance means. 100+ mods in a pack and some people want a detailed config for each one. Editing configs is a whole new meta-game. Hours spend editing configs to produce a gameplay experience catered to one specific individual. Ya, sign me up.
You can squeeze liquid force out of force logs. And force engines will put out 8 MJ/t when supplied with liquid force and water and 10 MJ/t with milk. To some people, being able to supply an engine that produces 10MJ/t without going through weeks of tree breeding is OP.
The only way any mod will be balanced with another mod is if they are specifically made to do so.
Try using a force engine without MFR, Forestry, or Steve's Carts. Then tell us how overpowered the force engine is. Without the ability to automate tree growing or cow milking.
It's not the mod authors' jobs to balance their mods to other mods unless it's meant to work directly with a specific mod. Because there are too many mods out there that are always changing for it to be feasible.
Try using a force engine without MFR, Forestry, or Steve's Carts. Then tell us how overpowered the force engine is. Without the ability to automate tree growing or cow milking.
It's not the mod authors' jobs to balance their mods to other mods unless it's meant to work directly with a specific mod. Because there are too many mods out there that are always changing for it to be feasible.