I did bee math! (Now with more usability!)

[Adonis0]

...Let me know of any features or the like you would like to see. I plan to make an optimizer to maximize lifespan, give a total product per generation, as well as a more detailed readout of all the product chances. If the wiki team (or anyone else) wants to nick the formulas or data for their own projects be my guest. (I just humbly request you show me too!)

Question. How do I input that a bee has no specialty comb, and only produces one type? Such as distilled bees

I'm entering in the values and leaving the specialty fields blank, and it's coming up with 1% chance of comb production, which doesn't seem right at all

 

[Milaha]

Question. How do I input that a bee has no specialty comb, and only produces one type? Such as distilled bees

I'm entering in the values and leaving the specialty fields blank, and it's coming up with 1% chance of comb production, which doesn't seem right at all

Indeed that is not right. It does check for that, so I am not sure why it is giving you that problem. I just checked it and it is working properly on my end. Did you bring the spreadsheet down to excel or anything weird like that?

 

[Adonis0]

Indeed that is not right. It does check for that, so I am not sure why it is giving you that problem. I just checked it and it is working properly on my end. Did you bring the spreadsheet down to excel or anything weird like that?

I downloaded it to exel because the google document version wasn't letting me input at all

EDIT: The link you gave for your spreadsheet is view only, so it's impossible to input without downloading it

 

[Milaha]

I downloaded it to exel because the google document version wasn't letting me input at all

I cant ensure compatibility between spreadsheet programs.

EDIT: The link you gave for your spreadsheet is view only, so it's impossible to input without downloading it

*facepalm* I said right in the post to make a google docs copy.

 

[Adonis0]

*facepalm* I said right in the post to make a google docs copy.

Well, looking at the edit that you put in, the make a copy option is greyed out and I can't do it..
Practially the only options that I have available are, download, print, find, and the help options.

There's a few view ones too, but they won't help either.

 

[Duranis]

Yeah it wouldn't let me make a copy of it either (options are greyed out apart from download as).
However if you click on the bottom left tab where it says sheet 3 you have the option to "copy to" and you can copy it to another google document (you need a google account and another blank spreadsheet already set up).

Thanks again to Milaha for this. I managed to remove 200 frame blocks from my setup which has made making frames a lot easier. I could remove a lot more as well but this will make sure there are always frames in place and means I don't have to reconfigure alveary's if I switch the bee's inside.

 

[Milaha]

Well, looking at the edit that you put in, the make a copy option is greyed out and I can't do it..
Practially the only options that I have available are, download, print, find, and the help options.

There's a few view ones too, but they won't help either.

Man, wtf. I even went over to a seperate account so I was making sure that I was looking at it like anyone else would. Ok, next version I will handle the locked cells and whatnot so it should be usable in the window. For now duranis has the workaround, and I will update the picture edit at some point. I wonder if it would be greyed out if you dont have a google account at all....

 

[Adonis0]

Man, wtf. I even went over to a seperate account so I was making sure that I was looking at it like anyone else would. Ok, next version I will handle the locked cells and whatnot so it should be usable in the window. For now duranis has the workaround, and I will update the picture edit at some point. I wonder if it would be greyed out if you dont have a google account at all....

I think it is because I don't have a google account at all, because when I did duranis' thing, it asked me to sign in >.>
So.. we've got that one sorted.

 

[RedLion86]

Thanks for this awesome work, it's exactly what I've been looking for.

One quick question:

I used the spreadsheet for a bee that produces its specialty every 78 minutes (e.g. glittering, impregnable, radioactive), database speed Slowest, individual speed Fast (because it's easy enough to inoculate them, might as well save a few frames). It told me I needed 7 frames.

Running the numbers manually:

27.5/(0.3*60*78) = 0.01959... (i.e. almost 2%)

So if it gets rounded down to 1%, then we have:

0.01 * 1.2 (fast) * 2^6 = .768
0.01 * 1.2 (fast) * 2^7 = 1.536
meaning we need 7 frames to get to 100%, which is what the spreadsheet says it should be.

But if the game instead rounds it up to 2%, we have:

0.02 * 1.2 (fast) * 2^5 = .768
0.02 * 1.2 (fast) * 2^6 = 1.536
meaning we only need 6 frames to get to 100%.

I mention this because Hypnotizd ran a test in one of his recent videos (

and skip ahead to the 18-minute mark or so) with Fast Impregnable bees, and it only took 6 frames to get 100% production (exactly 2 rocky combs and 1 titanium comb every 27.5 seconds). This leads me to believe that the game is actually rounding up to 2% here, not rounding down to 1%. Which in turn leads me to believe that the "always round down" assumption of the spreadsheet might be incorrect. Anyone want to check the code?

 

[Milaha]

Thanks for this awesome work, it's exactly what I've been looking for.

One quick question:

I used the spreadsheet for a bee that produces its specialty every 78 minutes (e.g. glittering, impregnable, radioactive), database speed Slowest, individual speed Fast (because it's easy enough to inoculate them, might as well save a few frames). It told me I needed 7 frames.

Running the numbers manually:

27.5/(0.3*60*78) = 0.01959... (i.e. almost 2%)

So if it gets rounded down to 1%, then we have:

0.01 * 1.2 (fast) * 2^6 = .768
0.01 * 1.2 (fast) * 2^7 = 1.536
meaning we need 7 frames to get to 100%, which is what the spreadsheet says it should be.

But if the game instead rounds it up to 2%, we have:

0.02 * 1.2 (fast) * 2^5 = .768
0.02 * 1.2 (fast) * 2^6 = 1.536
meaning we only need 6 frames to get to 100%.

I mention this because Hypnotizd ran a test in one of his recent videos (

and skip ahead to the 18-minute mark or so) with Fast Impregnable bees, and it only took 6 frames to get 100% production (exactly 2 rocky combs and 1 titanium comb every 27.5 seconds). This leads me to believe that the game is actually rounding up to 2% here, not rounding down to 1%. Which in turn leads me to believe that the "always round down" assumption of the spreadsheet might be incorrect. Anyone want to check the code?

This is evidence enough for me. I will switch it to rounding normally in the next version. Plan to do it tonight or tomorrow. EDIT: Actually in this particular case it is not that we have revealed how the game rounds it, but that I was rounding where I shouldn't have. In actuality the game is storing the value you are referring to directly as 2, and the only reason we get the 1.96 is because we have an imprecise method of obtaining it. I had meant the round-down to only happen for the 2nd product calculation (which halves the internally stored rate). The issue will be fixed in the next release regardless. Should be up tonight, errors make me want to fix them, which also made me just work on it in general .

 

[Milaha]

I made the next version public back in the OP. I decided to drop the rounding talked about just above entirely. Now it only rounds the basic internal number to account for our imprecision. This MAY result in some errors if you are trying to optimize products moving forward, but given that I am not sure how the game does it this seems like the best call. Doing some testing to confirm special frame numbers for the final update as we speak. I also may make an attempt to reach out to the wiki team to see if they have all this basic data on the bees in a spreadsheet/similarly readable format so that I can integrate that. I have zero desire to manually scrape all that data though, and I am not a CS guy to do it automatically from what I have.

 

[MilConDoin]

I made the next version public back in the OP. I decided to drop the rounding talked about just above entirely. Now it only rounds the basic internal number to account for our imprecision. This MAY result in some errors if you are trying to optimize products moving forward, but given that I am not sure how the game does it this seems like the best call. Doing some testing to confirm special frame numbers for the final update as we speak. I also may make an attempt to reach out to the wiki team to see if they have all this basic data on the bees in a spreadsheet/similarly readable format so that I can integrate that. I have zero desire to manually scrape all that data though, and I am not a CS guy to do it automatically from what I have.

We have all the numbers only on the bee pages, but not collated into one big table. Currently they show the timeframe as given by the apiarist database (converted to minutes where necessary), but soon™ it will switch to base % chances instead, using the formula Math.round(100*27.5/(speed*60*time))=chance for the conversion (since all the times in the wiki are given in minutes).

Edit: After the conversion I think I can generate a page, which will extract all these chances and display them more conveniently. More info about this, when it has happened. If I don't contact you about this generated page soon after the conversion of times->chances, just send me a PM.

 

[MilConDoin]

I just found this in the beta changelog for Forestry for 1.5.x:

All work and no play makes the queen a dull girl: Forcing a queen to produce way too fast or trying too hard to mutate her may result in undesireable consequences. (Note: Only applies to outside factors, not to factors inherent in the queen's genetic makeup.)

So in the next forestry don't use more than 3 untreated/impregnated/proven frames (for production boost) or soul frames (for mutation boost) in your alveary until further notice. I chose 3 as the safe numbers, since you can put 3 of them into an apiary. It seems, that in the future you'll need more alvearies (and thus more space) to produce the same amount as before.

 

[Milaha]

I just found this in the beta changelog for Forestry for 1.5.x:

So in the next forestry don't use more than 3 untreated/impregnated/proven frames (for production boost) or soul frames (for mutation boost) in your alveary until further notice. I chose 3 as the safe numbers, since you can put 3 of them into an apiary. It seems, that in the future you'll need more alvearies (and thus more space) to produce the same amount as before.

Interesting, depending on the implementation could make my work pointless or could make it super valuable (depending on consequences, and what exactly triggers it). I think I will still finish up the spreadsheet. I got all the testing and maths done last night and am just finishing up the front end. Plus, It would be easy to adapt it to different constraints now that all the internal numbers are known, so if the consequences are based on multipliers, actual production %s, or whatever, I should be able to optimize based on that. If it just counts the number of frames in the alveary, toss this out the window.

I was surprised to find that chocolate frames boost production 50% relative to un-framed not relative to a normal frame. Made my job easier, but it means that they are purely the realm of speeding up generations without mutation for cross breeding.

 

[Sengir]

so if the consequences are based on multipliers, actual production %s, or whatever, I should be able to optimize based on that. If it just counts the number of frames in the alveary, toss this out the window.

Based on the production multiplier from the bee housing. Factors from the bee genome (production speed, produce chance) don't influence it.

 

[Milaha]

Based on the production multiplier from the bee housing. Factors from the bee genome (production speed, produce chance) don't influence it.

Awesome news, also probably needed. Right now there is both no point for most people to use swarmers because you can get so much production out of wild bees, and a lesser incentive to breed an ideal bee.

Any chance you want to reveal exactly how the system works, numbers and all?

 

[Milaha]

Final version is up. I got the protected cells to work. For some reason it did not like me protecting it after I made it shared publicly. I am amazed at the lifetime you can get out of even the most stringy bees if you are willing to commit a lot of frames to it.

 

[Sengir]

Awesome news, also probably needed. Right now there is both no point for most people to use swarmers because you can get so much production out of wild bees, and a lesser incentive to breed an ideal bee.

Any chance you want to reveal exactly how the system works, numbers and all?

I posted the formula for the mutation limit a few days ago on twitter at https://twitter.com/sirsengir/status/322699952759386112 - the version for production is the same, except that the limit is 16 instead of 10.

 

[Milaha]

I posted the formula for the mutation limit a few days ago on twitter at https://twitter.com/sirsengir/status/322699952759386112 - the version for production is the same, except that the limit is 16 instead of 10.

Thanks. I have not been watching my twitter all that closely lately. I probably should with all the fun things people are talking about changing in 1.5. If I am reading this right the consequence is that it becomes a "swarmer" princess. Is there any consequence for pushing existing swarmer princesses too hard?

 

[Velotican]

The nerf is notable and potentially extremely annoying depending on how and when it kicks in. Annoying enough to cheat around it? Possibly, but I hope not. I'd only just managed to find bees enjoyable thanks to Extra Bees making the genetic minigame massively less annoying to work with and now something threatens to wreck it again, bleh! So long as you can get guaranteed production from a perfectly bred bee it's fine by me, otherwise it's time for cheating. I do, however, appreciate that trying to push a bee past 100% should probably kill it - but in that case the bee's performance should be less obtuse and easier to track.

Anyway, on our server at the moment we're finding on bees bred for optimal traits (maximum production, pollination, life, etc.) six impregnated frames is always enough for 100% production even on bees with very rare specialties. This nerf may prove very irritating for those of us trying to obsolete the quarry!

It looks like I need to take a good look at your data. Thanks for the work on this.