I did bee math! (Now with more usability!)
- Thread starter Milaha
- Start date
In my set-up it's the other way around. Although in response to your comment without the systems I have in place, yes you're right.
I've got a breeder alveary, so in that i have five mutator blocks with ender eyes in each, and then six frame holders with chocolate frames in each. This means that any bee I put in there has a 100% chance to mutate and 1 life cycle.
I started off with a blaze spawner, and an enderman spawner, both are fairly easy to make, just time intensive on the enderman one. So thus I have a renewable source of eyes of ender. Considering you don't automate a breeding alveary, then I think mutator blocks are definitely the way to go once you've got the infrastructure.
You are correct in saying that they're less efficient in terms of without automated systems. But you can make automated systems for the mutator block resources, and cannot for soul sand (That I have found). So once your base is up to the stage of "Automate all the things~" then mutators are the way to go.
So, soul frames to start off with, moving onto mutators afterwards.
We are getting a bit OT, but since the initial question is answered why not. You can automate soul sand, it was actually one of the first things I had. MFR sludge boilers provide soul sand at a low chance. Since they are used so rarely I have been swimming in them all game. I keep two going full bore mostly for the clay output, while I just recycle most of the other products.
Ahh, so soul sand is able to be automated in ultimate, but not mindcrack
the mindcrack server i play on is the one I'm further ahead in everything
First edition of the spreadsheet is done. Right now it is pretty basic. Big thanks to ex13 for going into the code again for me. We found that the websites were horridly out of date regarding the production chances of many bees, so I decided to have it calculate everything from what the bee databank says about the bee in-game. This should make it much more future proof (and non-spoilery to boot).
Pretty simple, fill in the info from the databank up top, and your actual bee's speed below that. it will spit out the lowest internal % chance to produce something, as well as how many basic frames you need to hit 100% of everything as a result. You should enter both the slowest product and the slowest specialty, as the 2nd product generation has a lower rate, which the spreadsheet accounts for when picking which to use. If you only care about maximizing one thing feel free to just enter that one thing. It is shared in view only mode, make a copy to change info (right now it is set up for a fastest valuable bee).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnkWNB3cVIdJdFRFS0VpMDFEVDRvR1dfTWZBUmNCeUE#gid=2
Let me know of any features or the like you would like to see. I plan to make an optimizer to maximize lifespan, give a total product per generation, as well as a more detailed readout of all the product chances. If the wiki team (or anyone else) wants to nick the formulas or data for their own projects be my guest. (I just humbly request you show me too!)
DO THIS TO CHANGE THINGS:
Pretty simple, fill in the info from the databank up top, and your actual bee's speed below that. it will spit out the lowest internal % chance to produce something, as well as how many basic frames you need to hit 100% of everything as a result. You should enter both the slowest product and the slowest specialty, as the 2nd product generation has a lower rate, which the spreadsheet accounts for when picking which to use. If you only care about maximizing one thing feel free to just enter that one thing. It is shared in view only mode, make a copy to change info (right now it is set up for a fastest valuable bee).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AnkWNB3cVIdJdFRFS0VpMDFEVDRvR1dfTWZBUmNCeUE#gid=2
Let me know of any features or the like you would like to see. I plan to make an optimizer to maximize lifespan, give a total product per generation, as well as a more detailed readout of all the product chances. If the wiki team (or anyone else) wants to nick the formulas or data for their own projects be my guest. (I just humbly request you show me too!)
DO THIS TO CHANGE THINGS:
Would you mind me asking you to elaborate on this a bit? Whatever method I used to first breed my sets of cultivated bees (I keep three apiaries running them at all times) I somehow ended up with the slowest worker trait on all of them. I don't have all the genetic machines yet (and even once I do, I'm not sure where I'll get a more productive trait from...) but in the meantime my honey supply is suffering...
I do know that this is true (playing DW20 pack if it matters). Both my BC quarry and my RP tunnel bore return massive numbers of rocky drones and princesses. I'm acutely aware of this fact since the princesses, seeing as they don't stack, tend to clog up my sorting system.
Would you mind me asking you to elaborate on this a bit? Whatever method I used to first breed my sets of cultivated bees (I keep three apiaries running them at all times) I somehow ended up with the slowest worker trait on all of them. I don't have all the genetic machines yet (and even once I do, I'm not sure where I'll get a more productive trait from...) but in the meantime my honey supply is suffering...
The easy non-machine method simply duplicates the entire bee exactly rather than moving individual stuff. To do this just breed a set of stacked drones (5 is generally enough, I often do 8 though to be safe) and shove them into the drone slot of an apiary. Then just keep feeding the princess back into the apiary and voiding the drones you get as a product. By continuously re-breeding a princess with the same drones, eventually she will take on all of the traits of the drones and forget all of her old traits. You will be able to tell when you are finished without a beealyzer because the new drones will start coming out in a stack and stacking with the old drones.
Still, you can use this to recover back to default cultivated fast status with a little care. First use a wild and common bee to breed a new strain of cultivated. You will want to get your mutation chance as high as possible, since we want to get as many mutations as we can in that first go. The mutation itself causes all stats to change to the default for the bee (for the half that mutates), and from there as you try to get it up to purebred you can obviously lose them. Each generation instead of focusing on getting cultivated to stay, focus on getting the fast to stay. Even if you end up with a fast wild bee or a fast common bee, that means you can use that to start mutating again, but this time even those that dont mutate will have a better chance for fast speed. A basic understanding of Mendelian genetics is pretty key to effectively moving and retaining individual traits pre-machines, but it is not all that hard. Once you get the tier 3 machines up and running you can forget how it all works though and just inject your bees with exactly what you want them to have. If you can find a 3x drone producing forest bee that is ideal, as more drones means better odds of there being what you want for the next generation.
EDIT: just fixed the font size, not sure why it was tiny.
Thanks for the detailed breakdown! I appreciate it!
Focusing on preserving the fast trait rather than the cultivated makes a lot of sense actually. I'm fairly close to having the tier 3 machines (I'm waiting on an ample power supply more than anything else) so I'll use your breeding advice to try and get myself some bees that can provide me with a fast worker serum and then I'll be in good shape.
Focusing on preserving the fast trait rather than the cultivated makes a lot of sense actually. I'm fairly close to having the tier 3 machines (I'm waiting on an ample power supply more than anything else) so I'll use your breeding advice to try and get myself some bees that can provide me with a fast worker serum and then I'll be in good shape.
The wintry bee has the max fertility trait (4x drones). It can be a pain to breed early-game since it needs a snow biome though. I actually managed to breed wintry-rocky hybrids with max fertility, nocturnal, cave, and flyer. But then I got the T3 machines right afterward.
a lot of science in here, I need to read it again. One conclusion I have, brute forcing 18 frames on my valuable bee is total overkill, thanks for the effort sorting this out!
I was just thinking the same thing. I have 40 production alvearies all with 18 frame housings on and making and moving that many frames is actually pretty tricky to keep on top of. Going to be useful to be able to drop the number of frame blocks on some of them.
Edit:
hmmm wont let me make a copy and downloading it as an excel file breaks the formula's
]Edit 2: Copied it into one of my other google docs spreadsheets. Amazing work, thank your for sharing this!
I void pretty much everything except specialty combs and run them through 12 centrifuges. Could get away with less probably but they are cheap and it stops backlogs if I'm processing lots of different comb types.
I do have an automated alveary block maker which runs off 8 squeezers and 4 carpenters for the honey/panels and 4 squeezers and 1 carpenter for the impregnated casing/seed oil. This is not really needed now though as I have stacks of alveary blocks and no real need to make more alvearies.
If anyone is interested, how the apiarist database calculates its production times (at least as far as I interpreted it by all the given numbers here):
27.5/(base chance * bee speed) = time in seconds. Divide once or twice by 60 to get minutes or hours. (27.5 is the time between production chances in seconds = 550 ticks.)
Example Valuable Bee->Platinum Comb:
(27.5/(0.01*0.3))/(60*60) ~ 2.546 hours, displayed as 2.5 hours.
Alternatively:
Do you want to find the base chance and know the speed and displayed time?
(27.5/(speed*60*timeInMinutes)
Example Glittering Bee:
Rocky Comb = 27.5/(0.3*60*7.6) ~ 20%
Golden Comb = 27.5/(0.3*60*78) ~ 2%
Since I assume nice numbers in the code, as the other sources indicate, the base chance for Rocky Comb will be exact 20%.
27.5/(base chance * bee speed) = time in seconds. Divide once or twice by 60 to get minutes or hours. (27.5 is the time between production chances in seconds = 550 ticks.)
Example Valuable Bee->Platinum Comb:
(27.5/(0.01*0.3))/(60*60) ~ 2.546 hours, displayed as 2.5 hours.
Alternatively:
Do you want to find the base chance and know the speed and displayed time?
(27.5/(speed*60*timeInMinutes)
Example Glittering Bee:
Rocky Comb = 27.5/(0.3*60*7.6) ~ 20%
Golden Comb = 27.5/(0.3*60*78) ~ 2%
Since I assume nice numbers in the code, as the other sources indicate, the base chance for Rocky Comb will be exact 20%.
The spreadsheet is doing this right now, that is what is displayed in the "lowest chance" field. There is a 2nd chance to get each "product" at half the normal rate, so it also does that when figuring out what the lowest chance item is. So, if we look at the valuable bee, there is a 1% chance for the platinum comb, 20% chance for the first rocky comb, and 10% chance for the 2nd rocky comb. Of these the spreadsheet right now just displays the 1% platinum, since it is just designed to spit you out minimum number of frames needed for max output. Eventually it will display all those numbers though.
I cant check in game right now but nothing should be able to have a production time listed in the database longer than the valuable bee on platinum combs. The only way it would be possible if it was either slower than 'slowest' or less than a 1% base chance. I believe base chances can only be round numbers. If you grab me the data from the databank on diamond bees I will double check things though. (if memory serves it is actually much faster than the valuable bee).
just checked and your right thanks so a bee with a lower production time requires less frames?
Yep, go ahead and use the spreadsheet I linked back a few posts and fill in the info to find out exactly how many. You will need to copy it to your own google docs to change the things that need to be changed. Eventually I should be able to just lock all the cells people should leave alone so that the copying is not needed, but for now that is the method.