I dared my best friend ruin my life - Mafia Edition [GAME THREAD]
- Thread starter RealKC
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Vote rjs
upon further review his attacks on pyure are what started the ball rolling. His arguments were not as strong as pyure's. And as pyure truly was neutral, rjs has the most to gain from the lynching.
upon further review his attacks on pyure are what started the ball rolling. His arguments were not as strong as pyure's. And as pyure truly was neutral, rjs has the most to gain from the lynching.
Uhuh. Let's break this down.
My attacks on Pyure were what started the ball rolling. Well duh.
The second point is more of a matter of opinion. Personally I think "This claim may be fake, and if he truly is who he says he is he has every reason to work against town to avoid being wolfkilled." is a much stronger argument than "You're dumb if you lynch me, and by the way I can't be bothered to respond to any point you make." But hey, I'll leave that to your call.
Now here is the interesting part. I have the most to gain from lynching Pyure? Please expand on this, I'm curious as to what you think I stood to gain from pushing that angle.
I'm also curious as to why you were perfectly happy to sit on the sidelines and only actually take a stance on the argument once the outcome was decided. Kinda makes me think you were happy to see Pyure lynched and are now happy to see me lynched, and only one group tends to be fairly unconcerned with who gets lynched under most circumstances. ps it's the bad guys
I was perfectly content to sit on the sidelines because I didn't trust either of you. With pyure lynched my lack of trust falls on the one person who I didn't trust in the first place. Me think you doth protest to much. I clearly stated i didn't trust either of you. You gave me zero opportunity to truly attack your claims. Pyure on the other hand jumped at the opportunity to defend himself. Both your tactics gave me pause.
BTW multiple attackers = team attack(not as David/Zander's team, but as in a team with 2 or more players that are in this teams)
I need to become more clear with the posts I make...
I need to become more clear with the posts I make...
Ok, I'm finding this a little...well...false. There was a huge span of time, during which you were active and I was making my arguments, that you could have attacked my claims. Zero opportunity? You had every opportunity, you merely chose not to take it for reasons known only for you.
Still waiting to hear how you think I gained from lynching Pyure, by the way. Your jump on me reeks of opportunism, and I'm feeling that you're looking at this scenario as a wolf hunting for a new scapegoat rather than a townie hunting wolves. Paint me a scenario in which I, as a wolf, would want to lynch the only role outside of my team that wasn't going to be actively trying to lynch me. If you manage to make something semi-convincing, I'll consider the possibility that my scumread on your vote is wrong. Until then, vote Scottly
I was active. But you were actively engaging pyure. Not me. To answer your question. Even a neutral kill benefits a wolf. It distracts the town. Arguments between a wolf and a neutral sows seeds of confusion. Orchestrated and done correctly, as a newbie I don't have a bearing on player abilities, you have to assume the wolves will work in pvt to undermine the thoughts of the town. the neutral kill, truly does benefit the wolves. Sitting back and watching you two go at it provides insight into what both of you were thinking. Convincing you isn't my aim. That has no bearing on anyone else's decision. But do as you think is right. I stand by my logic
What, were you expecting me to invite you to contribute? That's not how these games work - you have something to say, you say it.
And here's my issue with your rationale. If I were a wolf, I've done a rubbish job because nobody seems confused. The town was divided on the first day? That's D1 voting for you. In your narrative, I've really put my neck on the line and played a big central role in a lynch. Unless the other guy looks really suspicious, no wolf wants to push that hard generally, because it invites attention.
Maybe it would help if were to talk through how I would have gambled as a wolf.
As soon as I saw Pyure reveal himself, express his confidence in talking himself out of a lynch and say that he was trying to avoid being killed, I would have started a private conversation with him. I would have given him an offer he couldn't refuse. Work with us against the town, or he would die at night. Now, he could sell me out as a result of that, but doing so would guarantee that he would not achieve his win condition. If he wanted to win, he would have little choice to play our game as a bit of a pawn.
Mathematically, it's a strong position. Killing a neutral with the lynch reduces the number of non-wolf votes by one. Forcing that neutral to work with you not only reduces the non-wolf vote count by one, but also increases the pro-wolf vote count by one, resulting in an overall shift of two.
So, putting my neck publically on the line for a gamble that had a good chance to fail and would give a smaller return, or taking a risk privately for a gamble that had a much better success chance and would give a greater return.
I hope it's really obvious which one I would pick.
And here's my issue with your rationale. If I were a wolf, I've done a rubbish job because nobody seems confused. The town was divided on the first day? That's D1 voting for you. In your narrative, I've really put my neck on the line and played a big central role in a lynch. Unless the other guy looks really suspicious, no wolf wants to push that hard generally, because it invites attention.
Maybe it would help if were to talk through how I would have gambled as a wolf.
As soon as I saw Pyure reveal himself, express his confidence in talking himself out of a lynch and say that he was trying to avoid being killed, I would have started a private conversation with him. I would have given him an offer he couldn't refuse. Work with us against the town, or he would die at night. Now, he could sell me out as a result of that, but doing so would guarantee that he would not achieve his win condition. If he wanted to win, he would have little choice to play our game as a bit of a pawn.
Mathematically, it's a strong position. Killing a neutral with the lynch reduces the number of non-wolf votes by one. Forcing that neutral to work with you not only reduces the non-wolf vote count by one, but also increases the pro-wolf vote count by one, resulting in an overall shift of two.
So, putting my neck publically on the line for a gamble that had a good chance to fail and would give a smaller return, or taking a risk privately for a gamble that had a much better success chance and would give a greater return.
I hope it's really obvious which one I would pick.
Your gamble was more likely to succeed. you say you did a rubbish job. I tend to disagree. Not very many members changed they're vote. To me that stands to reason that they had a hard time picking between the two of you.
I never said you and pyure would pvt each other. I meant that the wolves as a team would be in pvt. IF I were a wolf, having one person on the offensive is solid strategy. If the wolf gets lynched, the others stay hidden. And to be in cahoots with the player to be lynched is a highly dangerous plan. Even if I had the chance to be killed if I ratted that wolf out, I still would rat them out. Neutral or not, you gain by a town win. I also disagree with Risk/reward assessment. Long run the objective is to win. Sacrafice is a valid strategy. Ask anyone who plays chess. To sacrifice a pawn, yields greater reward.
I wasn't expecting an invitation to attack you. In fact that would have gotten me to change my vote to you. You benefited by me focusing on pyure. So, yes my distrust of your argument, which i must say was founded, leads me to the final conclusion you're a wolf. And at worst you're neutral. But you certainly aren't a townie
I never said you and pyure would pvt each other. I meant that the wolves as a team would be in pvt. IF I were a wolf, having one person on the offensive is solid strategy. If the wolf gets lynched, the others stay hidden. And to be in cahoots with the player to be lynched is a highly dangerous plan. Even if I had the chance to be killed if I ratted that wolf out, I still would rat them out. Neutral or not, you gain by a town win. I also disagree with Risk/reward assessment. Long run the objective is to win. Sacrafice is a valid strategy. Ask anyone who plays chess. To sacrifice a pawn, yields greater reward.
I wasn't expecting an invitation to attack you. In fact that would have gotten me to change my vote to you. You benefited by me focusing on pyure. So, yes my distrust of your argument, which i must say was founded, leads me to the final conclusion you're a wolf. And at worst you're neutral. But you certainly aren't a townie
Ok, I'm going to work through this paragraph by paragraph.
"To me that stands to reason that they had a hard time picking between the two of you." Which is exactly why it was a bad target for me, were I a wolf. If I'm going to play an aggressive push as a wolf, I want as many other players on that push as possible to hide myself with. From a wolf perspective, it was a really bad move. From mine, I'm pretty happy with how it panned out, but there we go.
"And to be in cahoots with the player to be lynched is a highly dangerous plan." Indeed, except were I a wolf Pyure wouldn't have been the player in line to be lynched, because I...wouldn't have tried to lynch him.
"Neutral or not, you gain by a town win." False. Pyure's win condition required him to be alive when another team won. He could have won with the wolves or with the town. That chance to be killed would be a loss. Ratting that wolf out would be suicide. Pyure knew he would have no way to respond to that situation, hence why he never countered that point when I made it. Ever. With a claim of neutral to the town, and collusion with the wolves, Pyure could ensure that he was safe from both sides. That was, effectively, the optimum position for his role.
"To sacrifice a pawn, yields greater reward." Again, I disagree with this viewpoint. Whilst the principle of sacrificing a pawn to gain a greater reward is indeed a strong one, and is the reason why a wolf who has been too overt and garnered too much suspicion will be thrown under the bus by his team, I fail to see where the greater reward for the wolf team is. I would see it more as an error that caused you to lose a piece in exchange for nothing. FYI, I do play chess.
"I wasn't expecting an invitation to attack you. In fact that would have gotten me to change my vote to you" Right...ok...except... "You gave me zero opportunity to truly attack your claims" This is where things verge on the bizarre. It is my fault that you didn't voice these things before Pyure got lynched because "But you were actively engaging pyure. Not me". And now you tell me that if I had engaged you, you would have seen that as proof that I was a wolf.
...
What do you want from me man? You can't have it both ways!
P
profrags
Guest
I have a feeling RJS isn't actually a wolf but I still haven't finish reading everything and have to do my HW so I will probably put my real vote in a couple hours.
For safety reasons I'm going to vote profrags. (This is just incase I have something else pop up and don't get time to read everything and vote)
For safety reasons I'm going to vote prof
Nobody here actually looks particularly wolfy to me right now... which just means I haven't looked hard enough. Time to do some ISOs!
Living players:
robijnvogel: Protested Vike's gut read, which is understandable. Later antismote himself, which I don't really like. Self-votes tell us nothing at all about who you think may be suspicious; doing so does nothing more than rob the town of a bit of potentially-useful information.
Erindalc: An antismite. A wolfread on Pyure (sharing my viewpoint), but no reasoning or vote to back it up. Not much else.
RJS: Lots of arguing for about Pyure being a wolf, who I still think was acting wolfy. Then some arguing about scottly's thought process.
Vikestep: Random, but evidently correct, gut read on Shazam. Some cryptic comments; voted for RJS.
Someone Else 37: Not a wolf, I swear
The J: Public vanillager claim- not sure I've ever actually seen a wolf do that without being poked first. Then whacked Pyure with his own argument (which I like), before turning that into a vote on VikeStep (which I don't follow).
Scotly318: Confused arguments with Pyure and RJS. Not sure what to make of it.
Profrags: An antismite, followed by nothing at all until his self-vote above. Really quiet.
Living players:
robijnvogel: Protested Vike's gut read, which is understandable. Later antismote himself, which I don't really like. Self-votes tell us nothing at all about who you think may be suspicious; doing so does nothing more than rob the town of a bit of potentially-useful information.
Erindalc: An antismite. A wolfread on Pyure (sharing my viewpoint), but no reasoning or vote to back it up. Not much else.
RJS: Lots of arguing for about Pyure being a wolf, who I still think was acting wolfy. Then some arguing about scottly's thought process.
Vikestep: Random, but evidently correct, gut read on Shazam. Some cryptic comments; voted for RJS.
Someone Else 37: Not a wolf, I swear
The J: Public vanillager claim- not sure I've ever actually seen a wolf do that without being poked first. Then whacked Pyure with his own argument (which I like), before turning that into a vote on VikeStep (which I don't follow).
Scotly318: Confused arguments with Pyure and RJS. Not sure what to make of it.
Profrags: An antismite, followed by nothing at all until his self-vote above. Really quiet.
Whoops, wasn't quite tweaking the colors on that post. Ah well; close enough.
Vote profrags. He's been really super quiet so far; I really don't have any evidence on anyone else.
Vote profrags. He's been really super quiet so far; I really don't have any evidence on anyone else.
@RJS I'm not having it both ways. My statement of never giving me an opportunity meant that I could see no clear in to dispute your claim directly. And very clearly you never directly engaged me. I play chess as well. The greater good is a diversion to true intent. And in legal realms... Intent follows the bullet. Your intent seems clear. To refute arguments. Logical or not. The two people who have directly challenged you have gotten clear ire. Aggressive tact for someone who is "innocent" no?
@Someone Else 37 my arguments are confused? I felt my point was clear. I didn't trust either and very clearly don't trust the argument of rjs.
@Someone Else 37 my arguments are confused? I felt my point was clear. I didn't trust either and very clearly don't trust the argument of rjs.
P
profrags
Guest
3 of my teachers gave me surprise projects *flips multiple tables on Shazam for being a wolf*
The only people I really have my eye on are:
RJS (more of a wolf read than anything TBH)
Scot(small town read)
SE37(meh, not completely sure but obviously a scrub)
Nojr(ITS SO OBVIOUS HES A FLIPPING...
Nah, I don't feel like saying all my reads right now, I feel like some (I meant most) don't have enough evidence to back it up and I don't really feel like writing on mobile
I won't be online until tomorrow because I'm going to sleep and day ends when I'm sleeping :0 don't let the bed Mafia bite!
Edit: did i really not say anything D1? *scratches head* I swear I remember writing something on this thread at midnight and posting it...
Edit2: Vote RJS I will post some of my actual reads when I have decent evidence to back it up
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I'm going to be honest and say I actually don't know what your point here is at all.
But in order to prevent the impending mislynch, I'm one of the girls. I'm a town role, and it's a bad idea.
I don't see what the big deal is with people thinking: "OMG, Pyure was neutral, so he wasn't lying. Let's lynch the guy, who led the charge on Pyure!"
You have argued a valid reason for killing Pyure, even IF he'd been true to us.
Scottly is new here and is battling you pretty hard, something I did with Pyure when I was new, and I was a vanillager back then.
Overall I give both of you a pretty town read.
If you're town, you contribute to the game.
Vote Erin, because he's too quiet.