The title says it all. In mods with very powerful items, how do you most like the creation of those items to be balanced? Select as many as apply if you like methods to be combined.
How do you like mods to be balanced?
- Thread starter The_Technomancer
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I like there to be a balance of everything, something that is OP shouldn't be justified just by requiring a nether star or something. Using infrastructure can create a lot of gameplay as well, as long as it doesn't feel too grindy (but this is an ambiguous threshold). I like when mods have a unified feeling to their recipes, TE does this quite well with the machine frames and coils. I'd be fine if mods required more resources for things, not necessarily huge grindy crafting, but if you require a couple irons blocks for something instead of ingots, I don't have an issue. Players inevitably get to a point where they have too many resources to know what to do with
Patience, I don't mind waiting but I'm not saying that it justifies fewer materials. I also think it's good to require lots of power. And then of course lots of materials and plenty of steps. But I just wanna say that I think time should also be used in balance. Like you have to wait 20 minecraft days for this to finish and there is nothing you can do about it.
Tricky question, and not necessarily always applicable. Not everyone WANTS the powerful stuff in their play. Heck, I've been on a TFC kick lately, I'm happy I've got a roof over my head and both food and water to keep me alive.
Let's take Minefactory Reloaded as an example. It doesn't have a tier method (other than the mining laser and prechargers), but more of an interconnected web of machines that are all on the same 'tier' that do different things that produces things that other machines need. Kinda like Forestry back in the 1.3 and prior days, before Sengir got on the multiblock kick.
That tends to be more my play style. Not really all that interested in Bound Armor of Uber Awesomeness.
Let's take Minefactory Reloaded as an example. It doesn't have a tier method (other than the mining laser and prechargers), but more of an interconnected web of machines that are all on the same 'tier' that do different things that produces things that other machines need. Kinda like Forestry back in the 1.3 and prior days, before Sengir got on the multiblock kick.
That tends to be more my play style. Not really all that interested in Bound Armor of Uber Awesomeness.
I would most strongly and vociferously disagree with this entirely and totally. TFC uses this, and it's the one part of the mod I absolutely hate. As a casual player, the most precious resource I have available to me is time to game. If you force me to spend most of that waiting for something, you are going to lose my interest REAL fast.
(Edit: I decided to Reformat this.)
I like it when mods are balanced off of the following (These are interchangeable):
1) Upgrade Crafting, I like it when the Upgrade of something requires it's previous version or if it's a side-grade the thing it's a side-grade from (Buildcraft).
2) Awkward Crafting, I like the use of Odd materials or Awkward Materials because it makes me go out of my way. Back when Slime's didn't spawn in Swamp Biomes and people didn't have Slime Islands, Slime was like this.
3) Timed Crafting (Thank you Celestialphoenix), I'm enjoy time based crafting whether your babysit it (Thaumcraft Infusion) or not (Steve's Carts).
4) Limited Functionality, I feel there is thing's a mod/game shouldn't do; example, trying to close the gap of difficulty the mod community/community has set. This is something that has been happening recently that I don't agree with (Thermal Expansion, Tinkers Construct, Extra Utilities, Mekanism, Minecraft Itself). I remember a Time when Bee's were viable and Slime was a dreaded material, I miss this minecraft. Inb4 "Just go back to it and play it", I would if I could but there's mods that exist now that I'd like to play with that too and I've gotten used to the existence of some of the changes. To cut this short, I love Minecraft; please don't make a good mod that makes the game significantly easier people (EE2), because everyone will use it.
I like it when mods are balanced off of the following (These are interchangeable):
1) Upgrade Crafting, I like it when the Upgrade of something requires it's previous version or if it's a side-grade the thing it's a side-grade from (Buildcraft).
2) Awkward Crafting, I like the use of Odd materials or Awkward Materials because it makes me go out of my way. Back when Slime's didn't spawn in Swamp Biomes and people didn't have Slime Islands, Slime was like this.
3) Timed Crafting (Thank you Celestialphoenix), I'm enjoy time based crafting whether your babysit it (Thaumcraft Infusion) or not (Steve's Carts).
4) Limited Functionality, I feel there is thing's a mod/game shouldn't do; example, trying to close the gap of difficulty the mod community/community has set. This is something that has been happening recently that I don't agree with (Thermal Expansion, Tinkers Construct, Extra Utilities, Mekanism, Minecraft Itself). I remember a Time when Bee's were viable and Slime was a dreaded material, I miss this minecraft. Inb4 "Just go back to it and play it", I would if I could but there's mods that exist now that I'd like to play with that too and I've gotten used to the existence of some of the changes. To cut this short, I love Minecraft; please don't make a good mod that makes the game significantly easier people (EE2), because everyone will use it.
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Celestialphoenix
Too Much Free Time
Time based is perfectly fine, as long as you don't have to babysit the process- you set it up and get on with something else while its cooking. [Railcraft steel/Steves Carts assembly are good examples].
I prefer infrastructure because there is something satisfying about well designed machinery [magic/tech].
I prefer infrastructure because there is something satisfying about well designed machinery [magic/tech].
Likewise when you get something powerful, having earned the right to use it through doing/building something awesome rather than it being given to you.
Grinding is ok , on condition you bring in additional gameplay/mechanics to keep the grind interesting. Remember difficulty and tedium aren't related, so cranking it up to hard [or insane/psychotic] works quite well as long as you keep it interesting.
By example- Branch mining or spelunking?
They both grind the same thing- but one is a monotonous dig and the other is an adventure.
They both grind the same thing- but one is a monotonous dig and the other is an adventure.
I think mods should either add problems to solve or add clever but not simple mechanics that solve an external problem.
But the solution should not be to rich in power or simple to set up that it removes the problem quickly.
Material cost and time sinks are just cheap ways to throttle a player. Complexity cost however are truly rewarding.
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But the solution should not be to rich in power or simple to set up that it removes the problem quickly.
Material cost and time sinks are just cheap ways to throttle a player. Complexity cost however are truly rewarding.
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I prefer to have those items when it makes sense, not to be limited by arbitrary or high resource demands or tedious crafting steps.
For example, if I can kill the Wither or the dragon without that item, it makes no sense to require a Nether Star to craft it. It needs to be available earlier. If it's an item like an axe that can chop an entire tree down, it needs to be available early on when you chop a lot of trees manually, not after you set up a huge factory.
For example, if I can kill the Wither or the dragon without that item, it makes no sense to require a Nether Star to craft it. It needs to be available earlier. If it's an item like an axe that can chop an entire tree down, it needs to be available early on when you chop a lot of trees manually, not after you set up a huge factory.
I think Not only the creation has to be Good managed But it would be better if They cost almost the Same to use it for example draconic Evolution does require Power But it Never breaks and energy cost is Not important i think about something like requireing a steady supply of spezial thing or a time Buff where you Cant use that thing so you can Not Spam the item
I like mods to be tiered in some way. i.e. to progress to a certain kind of machine/setup/whatever you first need to finish or do the steps before that. This ensures (to me at least) the maximum amount of gameplay. The only downside is that when you start a new world you have to do it all over again. But other then that slight inconveniance I still ike this way to balance most.
Could you elaborate on this? I'm a bit confused since Limited Functionality is exactly the point of TE (you can't max-augment everything), so I'm not sure what the complaint is.
Take IC2 for example, I think IC2 is perfect! They fixed uu-matter, so that made more of a challenge. But to get something, you gotta start at the bottom and work up. There is no way to get anything higher than a coal generator without first using one to power your machines. And things like solar panels are butt hard so you ain't gettin infinite power early off!! Materials are harder to come upon as they get more and more advanced! Unlike some mods, you really can't start with a good jump on things, you have to start bare bottom and work up!
I don't exactly mean limited content, I mean more for example I never liked TE Dynamo's being the BC last tier. Extra Utilities has this issue even harder with its ludicrous power generation in the later tiers. I've always loved how complicated systems got when we were capped at 8-9mj/t, it made me feel like a technician but now I feel like someone using an Apple product, dumbed down and user friendly; I like using Microsoft products, complicated and user unfriendly but just generally better. TE made the difficulty gap and the complexity gap much smaller and I've never liked when any mod has done this, I dislike quality of life changes. The Augments as a whole urk me because I feel like that's an EU thing not a RF/MJ thing. I feel like honestly RF/MJ production shouldn't be higher than 90RF/t. I just feel your design ideals counter mine that's all, It's not a shot at you or anything I just don't like it, just like how I refuse to play with EE3 and Project E. I also would like to add that your Gear's are too easy to craft in my opinion, I don't mean cost I mean tedium; example Buildcraft's Gear's with the upgrade tiering and no side options on how to make them. I enjoy that. For my Personal pack I tier'ed your gear's like BC, changed the Dynamo's default RF/t, changed the Dynamo's recipes to reflect their Tier and changed the Augment Recipes.
Agreed.
The Most annoying things are the receipes in ic2 it takes forever to craft something without ae2 But one thing are the Upgrades overclocker very hard to Make But if you Are Done and have a Lot of them everything goes instant and i like the thermal centrifuge and the washer better ore proccessing than te But Not Done with one machine no you need very hard to craft machienes to go forward so well Done ic2
So...upgrades in ic2 is great but augments doesn't fit TE.
BC gears are ok because they have nested crafting but gated crafting by needing magma crucible and fluid transposer is too easy? (Signalum needs molten redstone, Enderium needs molten ender and blaze rods for pyrotheum, shiny metal isn't that easy to come by as well. To get it reliably means silk touched redstone ore to get cinnabar...)
The only gate of BC that I like is the laser assembly table. The gates and pipe wires are so good that I don't mind going the extra mile for them. But even then, TE gated most of their ducts behind a induction furnace+magma crucible+fluid transposer too.
And lower power generation per block will just results in dynamo towers. Also all of their dynamos only produces 80 RF/t without augments.
And by default TE doesn't have anything like the nuclear reactors in IC2 that cranks out loads of power.
Ore processing. I'll give you that as TE gets 2x and chance of byproducts with just a Pulverizer. And up to 3x with rich slag in an Induction Furnace. Which would be sort of easy I guess if you are comparing it to IC2EXP.
As for hard to craft machines? To me, that is tedious instead. Make tools to make parts to make machines that allows you to automate the process of making parts more cost efficient. I mean, in my opinion, some people like that but that doesn't make it more "balanced" than TE.
And IC2 actually have more utilities compared to TE4, so they need the tiered gating.
They have jet packs.
They have a harvester and crops system.
They have a point to point teleportation system.
They have an automated mining block.
They have a fluid pump that can handle lava.
They have a biome changer (?) block.
They also have free power using solar once you have managed to get all the machines and parts production going.
And I might be missing a lot of other utilities.
Compared to TE4, which is pretty barebone by itself (with Foundations, Dynamics and Redstone Arsenal).
So IMO, TE by itself is not as OP as what people said it is when taking what it offers into consideration.
Then cross mod interactions kills whatever resemblance of balance is there. (On default configuration.)
BC gears are ok because they have nested crafting but gated crafting by needing magma crucible and fluid transposer is too easy? (Signalum needs molten redstone, Enderium needs molten ender and blaze rods for pyrotheum, shiny metal isn't that easy to come by as well. To get it reliably means silk touched redstone ore to get cinnabar...)
The only gate of BC that I like is the laser assembly table. The gates and pipe wires are so good that I don't mind going the extra mile for them. But even then, TE gated most of their ducts behind a induction furnace+magma crucible+fluid transposer too.
And lower power generation per block will just results in dynamo towers. Also all of their dynamos only produces 80 RF/t without augments.
And by default TE doesn't have anything like the nuclear reactors in IC2 that cranks out loads of power.
Ore processing. I'll give you that as TE gets 2x and chance of byproducts with just a Pulverizer. And up to 3x with rich slag in an Induction Furnace. Which would be sort of easy I guess if you are comparing it to IC2EXP.
As for hard to craft machines? To me, that is tedious instead. Make tools to make parts to make machines that allows you to automate the process of making parts more cost efficient. I mean, in my opinion, some people like that but that doesn't make it more "balanced" than TE.
And IC2 actually have more utilities compared to TE4, so they need the tiered gating.
They have jet packs.
They have a harvester and crops system.
They have a point to point teleportation system.
They have an automated mining block.
They have a fluid pump that can handle lava.
They have a biome changer (?) block.
They also have free power using solar once you have managed to get all the machines and parts production going.
And I might be missing a lot of other utilities.
Compared to TE4, which is pretty barebone by itself (with Foundations, Dynamics and Redstone Arsenal).
So IMO, TE by itself is not as OP as what people said it is when taking what it offers into consideration.
Then cross mod interactions kills whatever resemblance of balance is there. (On default configuration.)
My beef with IC2 is just that ive been there done that. Why would I go back to it when I have a simpler (TE) or more complcated and vastly mpre challenging (RoC) options to choose from. Plus GT back in the day souring my experience with it. It forced hard on me during a time where it wasn't welcome.
I may revisit IC2 one day.
Frankly balance in modded minecraft is an unattainable dream. The atmosphere and community are in to much of a state of flux. Balance often needs a steady fulcrum to settle on there isn't one here.
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I may revisit IC2 one day.
Frankly balance in modded minecraft is an unattainable dream. The atmosphere and community are in to much of a state of flux. Balance often needs a steady fulcrum to settle on there isn't one here.
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