Gregtechs role in the modpacks.
- Thread starter Lambert2191
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lol I do that anyway with or without... y'know.. coz I'm not a dirty slob
Well, English is a Germanic language, so I can see where one could think that'd be the case. Its not a -huge- problem, just one of those OCD things, lol
Keep her away from whizz!
I wondered why my config pack thread was suddenly getting fresh likes and attention.
There are a few things I want to address that have been buried over time in this topic. I've spent some time playing the Ultimate pack with more or less default settings (except I crippled lava and solar Brutality-style to make easy power generation a challenge and buffed nuclear power to compensate) and this has given me some insight into how Mindcrack and Ultimate differ. Currently my opinion regarding Ultimate is this:
For single player, GregTech's default settings are obnoxious for most users and an "easy mode" rebalancing should be applied to taste. For servers GregTech's default settings are tuned expertly. No, really. Let me explain.
The big difference that makes Hard Mode GregTech much less of a nightmare in Ultimate is the fact that you have two very powerful mod suites that make life much easier in general: Power Crystals' mod suite including Power Converters, and Applied Energistics. The difference these two mods make is nothing short of incredible and they really take the sting out of GregTech. The only thing you'll be hurting for is Iridium like always but even then end-game materials are still realistically achievable.
Power Crystals' mod suite as a whole includes MineFactory Reloaded, Nether Ores, Power Converters and Flat Bedrock, so let's review that for a sec. MFR is not a mod I've had direct experience with just yet but it is effectively a full replacement for Forestry that is also considerably more flexible and easier to maintain. This alone is very helpful. Nether Ores not only gives you a reason to mine in the Nether, it also makes the Nether viable to dump a quarry into, although handling the lava will still be a challenge. Flat Bedrock effectively boosts the output of a quarry by giving you more access to useful resources at the very greatest depths of the map. All of this is a notable power multiplier.
Then there's Power Converters. Oh how I love this thing. It's balanced around the often-hated 5:2 IC2:BC power ratio which gets hate because IC2 power scales a lot faster than BC power. There's an excellent example of this that works well for you in Ultimate: if you produce a Fuel Cell from oil and place it in a Diesel Generator from GregTech, you get 387 000 EU @ 12EU/t for your trouble. Place this same cell in a Combustion Engine and you get 600 000MJ @ 6MJ/t. This is all well and good... until you realise that 600 000MJ converts to 1 461 000 EU @ 14.61EU/t with an Energy Bridge. This also means that the portable Redstone Energy Cell is worth roughly 2.5 MFEs as it happens to be able to store 600 000MJ. Why yes I'd love to have a portable superbattery that makes my MFE look like complete ass, thanks Power Converters! This is before you even touch a tesseract and this is also with crippled lava power.
Let me stress that: oil is finally viable again! Having a unified power grid is a godsend and more importantly it makes IC2 attractive again to people who were beginning to feel it was obsolete as its enormous power generation dwarfs the output of other mods entirely, and all you need to tap that sweet, sweet electricity is an Energy Bridge. Being able to quickly convert to EU power also makes GregTech easier as it uses access to on-demand power as a gating mechanism. Most importantly though, it means you can run stuff like your Quarry directly off a nuclear reactor or other electrical power generation with no significant effort required and teleport this power around the multiverse with a tesseract.
Then there's Applied Energistics. The automation potential enabled by this mod is utterly phenomenal, it makes RedPower look pathetic and that's a very significant triumph on AlgorithmX2's part. It's not just powerful, it's relatively easy to set up, too. I already have a setup that allows me to flawlessly process the entire input of a quarry with no bottlenecks, and all I had to do was hook my AE system to an Industrial Grinder and an Induction Furnace. Magic. You can of course further refine that process too. What that means is that, on servers especially, you can AFK mine overnight, have a good night's sleep and come back the next day to a fully processed and ready to use set of fresh materials. I have already done this several days in a row. The power of this cannot be underestimated. Better yet, with GregTech it's also perfectly possible using AE to autorefine fusion fuel from water with absolutely no effort required. Automation is GT's worst nightmare for maintaining a sense of difficulty - everything he's time-gated can be done by a smartass computer whilst you're doing something you enjoy more. Based on firsthand experience it's also incredibly satisfying watching a quarry mine and refine itself.
So in short, the presence of Applied Energistics and Power Converters are such a huge mitigating factor to GregTech's difficulty that they cancel each other out and you're left with a different, yet still not punishing experience that I find thoroughly enjoyable. With that in mind, no I don't feel Ultimate should use Easy Mode by default at all.
The other important point: GregTech doesn't actually have "modes". Most mods don't - the only exception I know of is Forestry. The "Easy Mode" I achieved in my config pack was based solely on me fiddling around with the config in my own time trying to find what felt right for me, then cleaning that up for a public release. To get an Easy Mode config, first someone from the FTB team has to invent it.
Or borrow mine.
There are a few things I want to address that have been buried over time in this topic. I've spent some time playing the Ultimate pack with more or less default settings (except I crippled lava and solar Brutality-style to make easy power generation a challenge and buffed nuclear power to compensate) and this has given me some insight into how Mindcrack and Ultimate differ. Currently my opinion regarding Ultimate is this:
For single player, GregTech's default settings are obnoxious for most users and an "easy mode" rebalancing should be applied to taste. For servers GregTech's default settings are tuned expertly. No, really. Let me explain.
The big difference that makes Hard Mode GregTech much less of a nightmare in Ultimate is the fact that you have two very powerful mod suites that make life much easier in general: Power Crystals' mod suite including Power Converters, and Applied Energistics. The difference these two mods make is nothing short of incredible and they really take the sting out of GregTech. The only thing you'll be hurting for is Iridium like always but even then end-game materials are still realistically achievable.
Power Crystals' mod suite as a whole includes MineFactory Reloaded, Nether Ores, Power Converters and Flat Bedrock, so let's review that for a sec. MFR is not a mod I've had direct experience with just yet but it is effectively a full replacement for Forestry that is also considerably more flexible and easier to maintain. This alone is very helpful. Nether Ores not only gives you a reason to mine in the Nether, it also makes the Nether viable to dump a quarry into, although handling the lava will still be a challenge. Flat Bedrock effectively boosts the output of a quarry by giving you more access to useful resources at the very greatest depths of the map. All of this is a notable power multiplier.
Then there's Power Converters. Oh how I love this thing. It's balanced around the often-hated 5:2 IC2:BC power ratio which gets hate because IC2 power scales a lot faster than BC power. There's an excellent example of this that works well for you in Ultimate: if you produce a Fuel Cell from oil and place it in a Diesel Generator from GregTech, you get 387 000 EU @ 12EU/t for your trouble. Place this same cell in a Combustion Engine and you get 600 000MJ @ 6MJ/t. This is all well and good... until you realise that 600 000MJ converts to 1 461 000 EU @ 14.61EU/t with an Energy Bridge. This also means that the portable Redstone Energy Cell is worth roughly 2.5 MFEs as it happens to be able to store 600 000MJ. Why yes I'd love to have a portable superbattery that makes my MFE look like complete ass, thanks Power Converters! This is before you even touch a tesseract and this is also with crippled lava power.
Let me stress that: oil is finally viable again! Having a unified power grid is a godsend and more importantly it makes IC2 attractive again to people who were beginning to feel it was obsolete as its enormous power generation dwarfs the output of other mods entirely, and all you need to tap that sweet, sweet electricity is an Energy Bridge. Being able to quickly convert to EU power also makes GregTech easier as it uses access to on-demand power as a gating mechanism. Most importantly though, it means you can run stuff like your Quarry directly off a nuclear reactor or other electrical power generation with no significant effort required and teleport this power around the multiverse with a tesseract.
Then there's Applied Energistics. The automation potential enabled by this mod is utterly phenomenal, it makes RedPower look pathetic and that's a very significant triumph on AlgorithmX2's part. It's not just powerful, it's relatively easy to set up, too. I already have a setup that allows me to flawlessly process the entire input of a quarry with no bottlenecks, and all I had to do was hook my AE system to an Industrial Grinder and an Induction Furnace. Magic. You can of course further refine that process too. What that means is that, on servers especially, you can AFK mine overnight, have a good night's sleep and come back the next day to a fully processed and ready to use set of fresh materials. I have already done this several days in a row. The power of this cannot be underestimated. Better yet, with GregTech it's also perfectly possible using AE to autorefine fusion fuel from water with absolutely no effort required. Automation is GT's worst nightmare for maintaining a sense of difficulty - everything he's time-gated can be done by a smartass computer whilst you're doing something you enjoy more. Based on firsthand experience it's also incredibly satisfying watching a quarry mine and refine itself.
So in short, the presence of Applied Energistics and Power Converters are such a huge mitigating factor to GregTech's difficulty that they cancel each other out and you're left with a different, yet still not punishing experience that I find thoroughly enjoyable. With that in mind, no I don't feel Ultimate should use Easy Mode by default at all.
The other important point: GregTech doesn't actually have "modes". Most mods don't - the only exception I know of is Forestry. The "Easy Mode" I achieved in my config pack was based solely on me fiddling around with the config in my own time trying to find what felt right for me, then cleaning that up for a public release. To get an Easy Mode config, first someone from the FTB team has to invent it.
Or borrow mine.
I don't know why more emphasis isn't placed on the ability to distribute configs... I mean, all they are is txt files that you can practically e-mail to whoever, whenever...
Perhaps we need to add a 'download config.' option to the launcher? Might make the current packs slightly robust and less 'cookie-cutter'...
OT: I would like GT more if he didn't feel the need to impose 'his design' on other mods. I don't want to use a Rolling Machine for Adv. Alloy. That means that I need BC Power to even get that item. No, I don't want to have to use Steel just to use the staple component that has been in IC since its inception: energy tools. At least Greg is smart enough to have all these things as config. options. At the same time, this separation in configs. makes a bit of a meta-game divide. Those who like the changes embrace the grind, and embrace the pride in being "hardcore". For those who hates these changes, they end up hunting after the config. options, and are sometimes ridiculed for doing so. That's my biggest gripe with GT: The idea that you aren't "trying hard enough" in a game. FFS Greg. If you want hardcore resource/energy management, go be an environmental geologist (like I am). Scarcity is not fun for me to have to deal with, but then again, I have no right to take away this 'pleasure' from the masochists who enjoy that out of the mod...
I think it is this 'divide' that makes Gregtech the type of polarized mod that it is in modpacks. This issue is even more prevalent in servers, where multiple players must subscribe to a set config. that only the server owner can dictate. On one end, you can make the game 'too hard' for players. On the other, you can make it 'too easy', and bore the hardcore players who can get endgame items within a day of joining the server. Having configs. is nice so you can find your happy medium, but not everyone's 'happy medium' is the same. Which tends to be the real issue. Who's config. do you default to? Greg's? the Modpack? the Server owners? Your own? It's this issue that I find makes it hard to work with Greg tech. While I find it stupid to need Aluminum bars for Water Mills, someone else may think that's ok. But if I make a server, and don't have that enabled, does that make me the bad guy since I allowed 'easy' Water Mills?
It seems choice, can also be the enemy of things...
The single player aspect still begs addressing though. As an ssp player in ftb, the hurdle of GT nerfing recipes in other mods AND IC2 is really reducing my enjoyment of the game. I like Gregtech as stated previously, but I don't have the time to do all that work again that was accomplished in my mindcrack world.
I truly feel intrigued by the Power Converters mod you mentioned, but it does present an important issue IMHO. The main and best strategy to conquer Gregtech's settings is to circumvent Gregtech and traditional IC2 strategies. Just as people gravitated to TE's pulverizer and RP2's tunnel bores when macerators and quarries were nerfed, I see a significant shift coming towards the "New to FTB!" Power Crystal's Suite and Applied Energistics.
This isn't necessarily a bad thing as Greg-tech circumventing will make people who choose it, learn the other mods. I certainly benefited from that and I see no reason that I can't get back into generating mass amounts of MJ soon and converting to EU via the new mods. Which means that I can just make MJ, never worry about more than basic IC2 and get that sweet new Modular PowerSuit and power it with converted MJ right?
Wrong. Greg nerfed the author's recipe. I'm still stuck with Greg. GT's Nerf of bronze alone can be attributed lack of crafting Bronze armor that was more prevalent in FTB Beta! We now have 2 more mods (+ EE3 if you want to use it) that can effectively battle GregTech, but in terms of his role in the modpack itself we're still left with his domineering influence. Is Greg a scapegoat used by the Team to balance and tune the game to their desire and not feel the heat of nerfing the original recipes of the authors? That to me seems to be his role. I know I'm coming off as very X-Files with that statement, but why else is an Add-On mod developer allowed to influence other mod packs?
This isn't hate, I love FTB, and I appreciate what we have been gifted. And I've beaten Greg & his Tech by myself, mainly due to brute force in resource gathering. But his role is that of supreme NerfHerder.
I truly feel intrigued by the Power Converters mod you mentioned, but it does present an important issue IMHO. The main and best strategy to conquer Gregtech's settings is to circumvent Gregtech and traditional IC2 strategies. Just as people gravitated to TE's pulverizer and RP2's tunnel bores when macerators and quarries were nerfed, I see a significant shift coming towards the "New to FTB!" Power Crystal's Suite and Applied Energistics.
This isn't necessarily a bad thing as Greg-tech circumventing will make people who choose it, learn the other mods. I certainly benefited from that and I see no reason that I can't get back into generating mass amounts of MJ soon and converting to EU via the new mods. Which means that I can just make MJ, never worry about more than basic IC2 and get that sweet new Modular PowerSuit and power it with converted MJ right?
Wrong. Greg nerfed the author's recipe. I'm still stuck with Greg. GT's Nerf of bronze alone can be attributed lack of crafting Bronze armor that was more prevalent in FTB Beta! We now have 2 more mods (+ EE3 if you want to use it) that can effectively battle GregTech, but in terms of his role in the modpack itself we're still left with his domineering influence. Is Greg a scapegoat used by the Team to balance and tune the game to their desire and not feel the heat of nerfing the original recipes of the authors? That to me seems to be his role. I know I'm coming off as very X-Files with that statement, but why else is an Add-On mod developer allowed to influence other mod packs?
This isn't hate, I love FTB, and I appreciate what we have been gifted. And I've beaten Greg & his Tech by myself, mainly due to brute force in resource gathering. But his role is that of supreme NerfHerder.
There should be a download config pack, with the ability to enable/disable them like the mods.
So in short, the presence of Applied Energistics and Power Converters are such a huge mitigating factor to GregTech's difficulty that they cancel each other out and you're left with a different, yet still not punishing experience that I find thoroughly enjoyable. With that in mind, no I don't feel Ultimate should use Easy Mode by default at all.
At least until Greg gets around to closing that loophole.
Actually Greg did not nerf that recipe, the author of Modular Powersuits made it so that it adjusts the recipes to GregTech items if GregTech is detected.
Bah, Humbug. Next thing this mod will do is detect how far you've walked or mined or some such tracked statistic, and if you haven't done enough stuff yet the mod will just say, "Recipe failed, not enough wisdom gained to deserve such nice things."
Yes, why have extremely expensive gravi/quantumsuit, when you can have super amazing customized suits tailored to your liking, for less?
Off-Topic: Mine's creative.. Just not industrious. She won't use my electric furnace and keeps making the cobble ones. I eventually have to hide the coal from her, lol...
"Look honey, this single piece of coal can be put into this machine, and into this machine to smelt 40 items for you."
You mean ee3
You making cobble from dirt? INACEPTABLE!!!! You need to use UU matter blocks for that!
What if they turned UU matter into UU blocks, and you had to set them down next to the material (block) you wanted to craft, then you had to wait x minutes. Put it next to that diamond block? Congratulations! Put it next to that diamond block on your floor of sandstone? Congratulations! You now have a 50/50 chance of sandstone/diamond blocks!
And you had to go through a complex non-block process:
Lapis+UU--> Canning Machine, then a centrifuge, then a chemical reactor, then a Factorization Crystallizer for two lapis luizi! \
Hey, Iridium Ore would cost 9 UU matter (unless you made 4 uu matter chunks with 3 uu matter, then it'd be 12 UU matter)...that's not a terrible idea, just needs some --less obnoxious to make stuff out of UU-- to make it good.
And you had to go through a complex non-block process:
Lapis+UU--> Canning Machine, then a centrifuge, then a chemical reactor, then a Factorization Crystallizer for two lapis luizi! \
Hey, Iridium Ore would cost 9 UU matter (unless you made 4 uu matter chunks with 3 uu matter, then it'd be 12 UU matter)...that's not a terrible idea, just needs some --less obnoxious to make stuff out of UU-- to make it good.