Gregtechs role in the modpacks.

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Lambert2191

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Firstly, a little disclaimer: I do not hate Gregtech. I use Gregtech on easy mode in my Direwolf20 SSP, the configs are the ones made by Velotican and you can find them here, the only change I made to it was to rid myself of the forestry bronze nerf. This is not a rant about Gregtech nor do I want this thread to devolve into it (however I know that no matter how much I don't want it to... it inevitably will.. so meh) anyway, on with my point.

Whether you like Gregtech, love Gregtech, dismiss it or hate it, you cannot deny that out of every single mod in the FTB launcher, GT is the one that polarises the community the most.
Personally, I like the content that it adds, but dislike the changes that it makes to other mods. This is my own personal view and I am adept enough at changing configs to be able to trim GT to what I believe the mod should be.

Now the 2 main modpacks before Ultimate came out were Mindcrack and Direwolf20, both set up by youtubers and tailored to their specifications. There were some minor differences in the two packs, such as advanced vs compact solars, traincraft, mystcraft, and some voxel mods. But essentially, both packs included IC2, Buildcraft+addons, Redpower2. These are pretty much the staple mods that most have gotten used to using in the modded minecraft community. The differences up to this point were pretty minimal, however there was one more difference: Gregtech.

Now, disregarding those who would play Mindcrack just because they are avid fans of Etho, Guude, Beef, etc etc etc or just play the Direwolf20 pack because they are avid fans of Direwolf20, people had a choice when they decided to download the FTB launcher (assuming they had a basic knowledge of the mods and what they did, otherwise they'd just pick blindly)
Does one choose Mindcrack or Direwolf20?

And the answer pretty much boiled down to: Do you wish to play with Gregtech, or not?
If you did, you played Mindcrack, if you didn't you played Direwolf20.

Yes, the configs existed, and the option to add/remove certain mods also existed. But if you're going to choose a pack and edit it so that it looks just like another pack, whats the point?
The biggest polarising factor was Gregtech.

Now fast forward a couple of months and Ultimate comes out and lo and behold, the polarising mod turns up once more. And once more it is in hardmode. Yes there are plenty of other mods that join the ranks in Ultimate over the likes of Mindcrack and Direwolf20 packs, but again, none are more polarising than Gregtech.

Thanks to the ease of use of the FTB launcher, it is a simple task to remove mods that you dislike or don't use, but a little more work to add mods. You have to find the right version, make sure there are no ID conflicts, etc. So again it's pretty easy to remove the mods you dislike. However, for Gregtech, if you are like me and like the content without the edits, then you only had the option of editing configs. No matter which pack you choose, if you want GT like I do, configs were your only option.
Not everyone likes mucking around in .txt files. Looking at walls of text can get confusing for some, and that's okay. Not everyone is brilliant at everything. Some would like to just jump right into the game than spend hours looking through every mods configs and changing things to suit them personally. And again, what if those people would like to play on a server? One would have a very hard time finding one that suited their personal tastes.
Ultimate, in my opinion, has negated the usefulness of the Mindcrack pack. Both are using the same hardmode Gregtech, which I believe also uses the exact same configs for that mod. And with the ease of removing mods, why wouldn't one just go with Ultimate and remove the mods they dislike? People who dislike GT in it's entirity will still go with the Direwolf20 pack. And people who like Gregtech will now mostly go with Ultimate and disregard the Mindcrack pack as it has lost it's uniqueness. In short, Ultimate has made Mindcrack obsolete.

Originally, Ultimate was said to have gregtech but disabled, then it was said to have it but on "easy mode" (I disagree with the naming of "easy" and "hard" mode, as I believe it is ridiculous to call it "hard" when it just takes more time) however once it came out, it just mirrored the "hard" mode configs of Mindcrack.
Other than a redesign of the launcher so that when one opens Ultimate pack, one has an option of "easy" and "hard" and the appropriate configs are downloaded/used, I believe an option would be to have Ultimate use "easy" mode config settings where Mindcrack keeps the original hard settings.

Now, I made this suggestion before (not in so much detail, and I forget which thread) and was replied to that "Ultimate is supposed to be the pack that includes everything, that includes Gregtech and all the changes that it holds" or something along those lines. To which I reply, if Ultimate is supposed to have ALL the things, if it's supposed to be the be all and end all of showing off as many mods as possible, then why include a mod that fundamentally changes mods in that pack? Surely if it was so ultimate and was supposed to show as many mods as possible then you'd (as in FTB team/modmakers/etc) want Ultimate to show the mods as they were intended to be played, as original as possible without any interference or changes from another (hugely polarising) mod.

Many of you know me already on this forum, you know I'm not so well known for long posts, it's not something I'm good at and I often struggle to stop myself tripping over my own words. I have been accused of, while having the right idea and right points, lacking eloquence in my posts, to which I would wholeheartedly agree. I know my own limits and well, I'm fairly sure I surpassed them with this post. If I've failed to explain my point properly, I apologise, this is new to me and I'm trying lol :p
 

Exedra

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Well done. *clap clap clap* This was an interesting read, and I agree, Ultimate, unless you're a mindcrack fan, has made it obsolete. In terms of difficulty, I quite like a medium mode I made for myself.
 
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Kariko83

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I think what many people forget is that feed the beast was founded originally around a challenge map and thus having a pack designed for that makes sense. Now fast forward to now when we have the pack but not the map yet and people have been flocking to the launcher as a easy way to get preinstalled mods. You can see how there is a bit of a discrepancy between how the pack was built, with a challenge map in mind, and how the community views it, as more of a be all end all mod pack. Truthfully I think a lot off issues can be solved by splitting it into 2 packs with gregtech either set to hard or easy. Then we get into a issue of naming that the mod pack team would have to tackle, I like Ultimate and Ultimate Challenge personally.
 

Lambert2191

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I think what many people forget is that feed the beast was founded originally around a challenge map and thus having a pack designed for that makes sense. Now fast forward to now when we have the pack but not the map yet and people have been flocking to the launcher as a easy way to get preinstalled mods. You can see how there is a bit of a discrepancy between how the pack was built, with a challenge map in mind, and how the community views it, as more of a be all end all mod pack. Truthfully I think a lot off issues can be solved by splitting it into 2 packs but then we get into a issue of naming, I would prefer Ultimate and Ultimate Challenge personally.
The last challenge map seemed to be centred on EE2 as it had the ability to pretty much give you everything, I'm assuming the role GT would play in the new challenge map would be centrifuging lava to give you everything you need? If so, why is hardmode needed for that?
 
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Geometry

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The last challenge map seemed to be centred on EE2 as it had the ability to pretty much give you everything, I'm assuming the role GT would play in the new challenge map would be centrifuging lava to give you everything you need? If so, why is hardmode needed for that?
I do agree as well. When the Mindcrack pack has GT on hard mode while the direwolf20 pack has no GT, The ultimate pack should balance it out and have GT on easy mode. It makes no sense to me o_O
 
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Kariko83

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The last challenge map seemed to be centred on EE2 as it had the ability to pretty much give you everything, I'm assuming the role GT would play in the new challenge map would be centrifuging lava to give you everything you need? If so, why is hardmode needed for that?
I honestly don't know as I did not play much on the last challenge map but with a more limited resource pool due to no condensers I can see it forcing people into some tough decisions due to the speed of the dust making devices . Hrmmmm, I may have to sit down and build a challenge map now based around that and the rest of the pack.

I really wish someone would just give use an answer to why it is on hard in the first place as I am sure they have a good a reason.
 

slay_mithos

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I think that your point is valid, particularily when they announced the ability to choose from multiple configs right in the launcher.
That being said, there is a thread roaming around here that has a config for both an "easy" and an "ultra hard" modes.
So for those not wanting to open and edit a file of hundreds of lines, a make-shift solution exists.

As for the view of the FTB team on Greg Tech, we can't be certain unless they come here and answer that one, and that is not likely to happen, or they would have diffused this flame war before it took such big proportions by saying exactly what they wanted from that mod. From there it would be up to us to decide if we stick with their view or not.

I think that if they fiddle a little more with greg tech configs, they can make certain machines require certain specific materials (iridium for example), and be able to make the same style of progress than the old map, where they give you stuff needed for the next phase, one at a time.
If you factor in what EE and TC can do, I do think they really have a way to make those separated challenges like in the previous "insanity" map, for those that played it.

But yeah, bottom line is that we really need that "choose your config" in the launcher, it will really help many people to enjoy playing rather than having so many threads that either hate the mod, or hate the people not liking it.
 

Neirin

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One point I'd like to contest: I don't think GT is the most polarizing mod in the pack. During the FTB Beta stage, certainly, but nowadays most arguments end with "don't like it, change the config" rather than a shouting match. Instead, RP2 is the mod I see the most praise and the most vitriol about. Seems like Eloraam gets blamed for every dip in FPS as often as Greg gets blamed for a recipe being hard. Personally, I love both mods, but I'm well aware that that's not everyone's opinion.

OT: In my opinion one of the most incredible things GT adds is its amazing config file that lets you fine tune the difficulty to your personal taste. Unfortunately, that isn't super compatible with the idea of a universal mod pack where everything is already setup for you.

Part of me wants to suggest that future versions of Ultimate ship with GT on easy mode since the people looking for extra difficulty are probably experienced enough with modded minecraft that they can up the difficulty manually. However, another part of me wonders if I'd ever have really gotten into GT hardmode without being pushed there by the default configs. A lot of people like an extra challenge, but how many people would be willing to jump through hoops to get it? It's also much easier to convince a server full of people to reduce difficulty than increase it, so I fear the people who like GT hardmode would also be kinda SOL for SMP with anything beyond a small group of friends/family.
 

netmc

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I don't believe we will get to choose the config versions until the updated launcher comes into play. The current launcher can't handle multiple configs. My guess is that the new one will.

The DW20 pack is all centered around the new modded minecraft player. DW20 shows off what is possible (and then some), Mindcrack and now Ultimate slows down the game and makes it a bit more balanced and "realistic". I think this is perfect. That being said, I can't wait until the new launcher is released and we have the option of choosing various pre-made configs.

p.s. Good job on the original post Lambert.
p.p.s I love the ultimate pack as is. Ultimate has all the mods I added to the mindcrack pack plus a few new ones I need to investigate. It should take me months to get through all the new content. :)
 

Lambert2191

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the point I'm trying to make is that we already have a modpack that has GT on hardmode, we already have a modpack that has no GT at all... but we have no modpack that has GT on easymode by default. Ultimate imo, should be that modpack.

and thanks :)
 
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Neirin

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Just spitballing here: what if, in some ideal future, the first time you launched a certain pack from the launcher you got taken through a series of dialogue boxes asking you (in plain english) what settings you want and then the configs were changed to match?

I seriously doubt it'll ever happen, but I can dream.
 
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Lambert2191

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Just spitballing here: what if, in some ideal future, the first time you launched a certain pack from the launcher you got taken through a series of dialogue boxes asking you (in plain english) what settings you want and then the configs were changed to match?

I seriously doubt it'll ever happen, but I can dream.
yeah that would be pretty nifty, but again, that is unlikely to be a reality. The best we can hope for would be an option of "hard" or "easy" when first attempting to download the pack.
 

Technician

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Completely OT: Lambert, with the new sig, I don't think anyone can mistake you for an Irishman again. The sig is definitely stereotypically English.
It's completely green = Irishman.

Also, Gregtech should have Ultimate easy mode by default
 
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whythisname

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On one hand I agree Ultimate can be done with easy mode GT and give an option for everyone regarding GT "difficulty". On the other hand I like all the mods in Ultimate (that Mindcrack doesn't have) and GT on hard mode, so if they would do that I would have to edit configs like you (Lambert) are doing now.
Of course I could go back to Mindcrack for hard GT and add everything Ultimate has that Mindcrack doesn't have, but does that really solve anything? Imho it doesn't solve anything, it's just moving the problem from one person/group of people to another. Because of that I think it should just be left as it is now.

So yeah, in the short term it might reduce the number of people having to do any config editing, but increase in the number of people adding/removing mods to the packs. In the long term I think we just need an option from the launcher to once and for all solve this issue.
I also think that it would help a lot if the launcher would "remember" which mods someone added/removed from a mod pack and possibly port over the config as best it can. Because if that works you only have to edit a pack once and then it'll be good with very little maintenance after that (pretty much nothing besides updating the mods you manually added).
 
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Juice57

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All I see when it comes to GT and its difficulty is people to lazy to learn to change the configs. Slowpoke wanted it on hard mode so he got it.
 

Lambert2191

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we have an official config for hardmode, and we don't have one for easymode? If there was 2 configs and one just had to delete/disable the one they didn't want, that would imo be the best compromise available. However while that isn't an option with the current launcher then I believe that efforts should be made to have the widest range of options available, and right now I believe the existance of GT hard mode on Ultimate pack makes the Mindcrack pack a subpar choice for anyone other than those who use it just to be like their favourite youtubers.
 

MFINN23

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Greg's working on two mods and combining them into one. Of course, who'd download and install a mod called, "Nerf you!"
I really wish he separated them.[DOUBLEPOST=1364145385][/DOUBLEPOST]
All I see when it comes to GT and its difficulty is people to lazy to learn to change the configs. Slowpoke wanted it on hard mode so he got it.
It's such a horrible argument. What if you play multiplayer which I just got back into. Even if you deal with "hardmode" for multiplayer, what if you want to also play your single player sometimes? What about every time a new version comes out and you have to edit a new config file?

Everyone should watch this:

Wow.
This guy... this guy right here.