Gregtechs role in the modpacks.

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KirinDave

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Then there's Power Converters. Oh how I love this thing. It's balanced around the often-hated 5:2 IC2:BC power ratio which gets hate because IC2 power scales a lot faster than BC power. There's an excellent example of this that works well for you in Ultimate: if you produce a Fuel Cell from oil and place it in a Diesel Generator from GregTech, you get 387 000 EU @ 12EU/t for your trouble. Place this same cell in a Combustion Engine and you get 600 000MJ @ 6MJ/t. This is all well and good... until you realise that 600 000MJ converts to 1 461 000 EU @ 14.61EU/t with an Energy Bridge. This also means that the portable Redstone Energy Cell is worth roughly 2.5 MFEs as it happens to be able to store 600 000MJ. Why yes I'd love to have a portable superbattery that makes my MFE look like complete ass, thanks Power Converters! This is before you even touch a tesseract and this is also with crippled lava power.

I have a question. Doesn't this imply a power loop from choked electrical engines? If you can get the efficiency at >5:2 the power bridge will be power positive? Seems that it starts at 6:2, so two iron tubes means you'll generate 2MJ/t for 4 eu/t, the converter will turn that output into 10eu/t from the numbers you posted.

Then there's Applied Energistics. The automation potential enabled by this mod is utterly phenomenal, it makes RedPower look pathetic and that's a very significant triumph on AlgorithmX2's part. It's not just powerful, it's relatively easy to set up, too. I already have a setup that allows me to flawlessly process the entire input of a quarry with no bottlenecks, and all I had to do was hook my AE system to an Industrial Grinder and an Induction Furnace. Magic. You can of course further refine that process too. What that means is that, on servers especially, you can AFK mine overnight, have a good night's sleep and come back the next day to a fully processed and ready to use set of fresh materials. I have already done this several days in a row. The power of this cannot be underestimated. Better yet, with GregTech it's also perfectly possible using AE to autorefine fusion fuel from water with absolutely no effort required. Automation is GT's worst nightmare for maintaining a sense of difficulty - everything he's time-gated can be done by a smartass computer whilst you're doing something you enjoy more. Based on firsthand experience it's also incredibly satisfying watching a quarry mine and refine itself.

My lolsetup:
  1. A level emitter on copper to an IC2 splitter cable. Emits while copper ingots are above a certain threshold. Set to taste.
  2. An import bus on the top of a centrifuge powered through that splitter cable.
  3. An endertank in output mode below the centrifuge.
We have Liquid Metals installed, so I'm tempted to make a fluid tesseract channel, "Free Public Molten Copper." Of course, this is doable without AE. AE is just really really good at it.

So in short, the presence of Applied Energistics and Power Converters are such a huge mitigating factor to GregTech's difficulty that they cancel each other out and you're left with a different, yet still not punishing experience that I find thoroughly enjoyable. With that in mind, no I don't feel Ultimate should use Easy Mode by default at all. :)

I dunno. Greg's balance decisions just don't fit well. For example, hardmode macerator is just useless and out of place in Ultimate.
 
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KirinDave

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Actually Greg did not nerf that recipe, the author of Modular Powersuits made it so that it adjusts the recipes to GregTech items if GregTech is detected.

It's a config option. That said, I think even the author has conceded that the flight recipes in GT are not really balanced to the cost of flight in a modpack containing GT and Gravisuite. There is really no reason to ever build thrusters if you can get an advanced nanochest.
 

Jyzarc

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I wondered why my config pack thread was suddenly getting fresh likes and attention. :D

There are a few things I want to address that have been buried over time in this topic. I've spent some time playing the Ultimate pack with more or less default settings (except I crippled lava and solar Brutality-style to make easy power generation a challenge and buffed nuclear power to compensate) and this has given me some insight into how Mindcrack and Ultimate differ. Currently my opinion regarding Ultimate is this:

For single player, GregTech's default settings are obnoxious for most users and an "easy mode" rebalancing should be applied to taste. For servers GregTech's default settings are tuned expertly. No, really. Let me explain.

The big difference that makes Hard Mode GregTech much less of a nightmare in Ultimate is the fact that you have two very powerful mod suites that make life much easier in general: Power Crystals' mod suite including Power Converters, and Applied Energistics. The difference these two mods make is nothing short of incredible and they really take the sting out of GregTech. The only thing you'll be hurting for is Iridium like always but even then end-game materials are still realistically achievable.

Power Crystals' mod suite as a whole includes MineFactory Reloaded, Nether Ores, Power Converters and Flat Bedrock, so let's review that for a sec. MFR is not a mod I've had direct experience with just yet but it is effectively a full replacement for Forestry that is also considerably more flexible and easier to maintain. This alone is very helpful. Nether Ores not only gives you a reason to mine in the Nether, it also makes the Nether viable to dump a quarry into, although handling the lava will still be a challenge. Flat Bedrock effectively boosts the output of a quarry by giving you more access to useful resources at the very greatest depths of the map. All of this is a notable power multiplier.

Then there's Power Converters. Oh how I love this thing. It's balanced around the often-hated 5:2 IC2:BC power ratio which gets hate because IC2 power scales a lot faster than BC power. There's an excellent example of this that works well for you in Ultimate: if you produce a Fuel Cell from oil and place it in a Diesel Generator from GregTech, you get 387 000 EU @ 12EU/t for your trouble. Place this same cell in a Combustion Engine and you get 600 000MJ @ 6MJ/t. This is all well and good... until you realise that 600 000MJ converts to 1 461 000 EU @ 14.61EU/t with an Energy Bridge. This also means that the portable Redstone Energy Cell is worth roughly 2.5 MFEs as it happens to be able to store 600 000MJ. Why yes I'd love to have a portable superbattery that makes my MFE look like complete ass, thanks Power Converters! This is before you even touch a tesseract and this is also with crippled lava power.

Let me stress that: oil is finally viable again! Having a unified power grid is a godsend and more importantly it makes IC2 attractive again to people who were beginning to feel it was obsolete as its enormous power generation dwarfs the output of other mods entirely, and all you need to tap that sweet, sweet electricity is an Energy Bridge. Being able to quickly convert to EU power also makes GregTech easier as it uses access to on-demand power as a gating mechanism. Most importantly though, it means you can run stuff like your Quarry directly off a nuclear reactor or other electrical power generation with no significant effort required and teleport this power around the multiverse with a tesseract.

Then there's Applied Energistics. The automation potential enabled by this mod is utterly phenomenal, it makes RedPower look pathetic and that's a very significant triumph on AlgorithmX2's part. It's not just powerful, it's relatively easy to set up, too. I already have a setup that allows me to flawlessly process the entire input of a quarry with no bottlenecks, and all I had to do was hook my AE system to an Industrial Grinder and an Induction Furnace. Magic. You can of course further refine that process too. What that means is that, on servers especially, you can AFK mine overnight, have a good night's sleep and come back the next day to a fully processed and ready to use set of fresh materials. I have already done this several days in a row. The power of this cannot be underestimated. Better yet, with GregTech it's also perfectly possible using AE to autorefine fusion fuel from water with absolutely no effort required. Automation is GT's worst nightmare for maintaining a sense of difficulty - everything he's time-gated can be done by a smartass computer whilst you're doing something you enjoy more. Based on firsthand experience it's also incredibly satisfying watching a quarry mine and refine itself.

So in short, the presence of Applied Energistics and Power Converters are such a huge mitigating factor to GregTech's difficulty that they cancel each other out and you're left with a different, yet still not punishing experience that I find thoroughly enjoyable. With that in mind, no I don't feel Ultimate should use Easy Mode by default at all. :)


The other important point: GregTech doesn't actually have "modes". Most mods don't - the only exception I know of is Forestry. The "Easy Mode" I achieved in my config pack was based solely on me fiddling around with the config in my own time trying to find what felt right for me, then cleaning that up for a public release. To get an Easy Mode config, first someone from the FTB team has to invent it.

Or borrow mine.
I agree for the most part, But I don't play with a lot of those mods because I'm in the direwolf20 pack. I tried installing GT then I realized that it was making me want to avoid IC2 altogether, and I wasn't having fun playing.
 

Neirin

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For what it's worth: I like some of the GT "hardmode" changes that push you into other mods. The rolling machine for mixed metal ingots and steel for powertools are things I really appreciate. Those changes mean I can't just tunnel vision on IC2. That said, I totally understand how that can be annoying to people and I'm thankful that I've been playing with modded minecraft long enough that the mixed-mod experience makes total sense to me. For someone new to these mods being told that the power you just used to rubber for cables isn't the same as the power used to make alloys for the same machine that will use the cables is very confusing. Add in an "oh, and you haven't even touched blulectricity, force energy, or AE's energy units" and a big trollface and you'll be lucky if the new player doesn't rage quit right there.
 
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KirinDave

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I agree for the most part, But I don't play with a lot of those mods because I'm in the direwolf20 pack. I tried installing GT then I realized that it was making me want to avoid IC2 altogether, and I wasn't having fun playing.

If you want that electrical experience, throw in UE & friends from Ampz. It's a lot better than people give it credit for. It actually plays really well with Buildcraft because Mekanism's energy cubes will output UE, EU, or MJ power on their output face. So you can freely power everything with electricity. Its shared reliance on railcraft steam is likewise lovely; you can use the same boilertricks that you were using before but actually get much better returns in UE. UE has ore tripling (for some ores) and some nice toolsets, too.
 
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Jyzarc

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If you want that electrical experience, throw in UE & friends from Ampz. It's a lot better than people give it credit for. It actually plays really well with Buildcraft because Mekanism's energy cubes will output UE, EU, or MJ power on their output face. So you can freely power everything with electricity. Its shared reliance on railcraft steam is likewise lovely; you can use the same boilertricks that you were using before but actually get much better returns in UE. UE has ore tripling (for some ores) and some nice toolsets, too.
I actually like vanilla IC2 quite a bit but I am gonna look into UE, some of the stuff looks cool.
 

KirinDave

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I actually like vanilla IC2 quite a bit but I am gonna look into UE, some of the stuff looks cool.

I wish more people were willing to try it. They're doing great work on that modpack that all-too-often gets dismissed by handwavers who feel that ICBM makes it a griefer/factions modset.
 

Jyzarc

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I wish more people were willing to try it. They're doing great work on that modpack that all-too-often gets dismissed by handwavers who feel that ICBM makes it a griefer/factions modset.
Last time I tried to install it, it said something like "the following mod is required: basic components" Even though I had it installed. I kinda gave up to laziness. I use FTB to avoid fixing this stuff
 

Whovian

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Last time I tried to install it, it said something like "the following mod is required: basic components" Even though I had it installed. I kinda gave up to laziness. I use FTB to avoid fixing this stuff

You probably had the wrong version of Basic Components.
 

Jyzarc

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I wish more people were willing to try it. They're doing great work on that modpack that all-too-often gets dismissed by handwavers who feel that ICBM makes it a griefer/factions modset.
Also, I wouldn't want ICBM on our server. We have already had enough issues with the terraformer and wrath igniters, the rest of the mods do look cool[DOUBLEPOST=1364348109][/DOUBLEPOST]
You probably had the wrong version of Basic Components.
I just grabbed all of the mods from the ampz pack, and used veloticans configs.
 

KirinDave

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Also, I wouldn't want ICBM on our server. We have already had enough issues with the terraformer and wrath igniters, the rest of the mods do look cool[DOUBLEPOST=1364348109][/DOUBLEPOST]
I just grabbed all of the mods from the ampz pack, and used veloticans configs.


If you have problems with griefers on your server it is not because of the mods installed.
 
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Whovian

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If you have problems with griefers on your server it is not because of the mods installed.

True, but installing ICBM probably results in more chaos from hungry griefers than e-Mailing ICanHazGrief, telling him to log on to your server, whitelisting him, opping him, and giving him 20 stacks of Nukes.
 

Jyzarc

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If you have problems with griefers on your server it is not because of the mods installed.
Yes I know, but the whole point of the mod is explosives, so we wouldn't want people to use it, so what would be the point of having it.
 

KirinDave

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Yes I know, but the whole point of the mod is explosives, so we wouldn't want people to use it, so what would be the point of having it.

Mystcraft is great because it means you can have a war age where people can legitimately make ruthless and terrifying contraptions. I don't like personal-scale PvP in minecraft, but I love adventure puzzles and I've done a few ICBM challenge games with a group and they were really fun.

But the nice part about UE is that ICBM is not integral.

Most really fun mods have a someone frightening aspect to them. IC2 and AtomikScience have nuclear power and nukes and I dunno if you have seen how bad AS's nuclear fallout can be, but it's entertainingly bad. Despite Thermal Expansion related crash/corruption bugs, our FTB-derivative server has been having a lot of fun with Dimensional Doors and that's a mod that can REALLY ruin an environment. You think high flux is bad...
 
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Jyzarc

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Mystcraft is great because it means you can have a war age where people can legitimately make ruthless and terrifying contraptions. I don't like personal-scale PvP in minecraft, but I love adventure puzzles and I've done a few ICBM challenge games with a group and they were really fun.

But the nice part about UE is that ICBM is not integral.

Most really fun mods have a someone frightening aspect to them. IC2 and AtomikScience have nuclear power and nukes and I dunno if you have seen how bad AS's nuclear fallout can be, but it's entertainingly bad. Despite Thermal Expansion related crash/corruption bugs, our FTB-derivative server has been having a lot of fun with Dimensional Doors and that's a mod that can REALLY ruin an environment. You think high flux is bad...
Ill check out UE. I don't like installing a lot of mods. I used to use a "private modpack" and I switched to FTB once I realized they had a descent standalone pack (direwolf20) and that I wouldn't have to do all of the work and just play. I install a couple mods for the server I play on (luckily they are both supported in the configs) but i'm trying to make updating a less painful process.
 

Technician

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Mystcraft is great because it means you can have a war age where people can legitimately make ruthless and terrifying contraptions. I don't like personal-scale PvP in minecraft, but I love adventure puzzles and I've done a few ICBM challenge games with a group and they were really fun.

But the nice part about UE is that ICBM is not integral.

Most really fun mods have a someone frightening aspect to them. IC2 and AtomikScience have nuclear power and nukes and I dunno if you have seen how bad AS's nuclear fallout can be, but it's entertainingly bad. Despite Thermal Expansion related crash/corruption bugs, our FTB-derivative server has been having a lot of fun with Dimensional Doors and that's a mod that can REALLY ruin an environment. You think high flux is bad...

I play on a server as part of a team and my friend uses those. When you get 200k from spawn, fun :)
 

Velotican

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I have a question. Doesn't this imply a power loop from choked electrical engines? If you can get the efficiency at >5:2 the power bridge will be power positive? Seems that it starts at 6:2, so two iron tubes means you'll generate 2MJ/t for 4 eu/t, the converter will turn that output into 10eu/t from the numbers you posted.

This is a poorly known fact but there's a cap to the amount of circuit tubes of a specific type you can fit on a single board, probably to avoid precisely this problem. The 5:2 ratio is a very common one and Sengir probably accounted for its popularity when designing his own system.

What I don't remember is whether the choke cap is low enough to avoid this problem but if I recall correctly you are capped to one choke tube per board. Confirmation either way would be welcome. In theory though if you could fit four then yes you would get a power loop roughly equivalent to half an Advanced Solar Panel. I suppose that's not a trivial amount of free power.

The other important factor to consider there is that the Energy Bridge works by converting power types from other mods into its own unique internal power type (which I think MFR also uses and MFR should be able to use power from any source because of this compatibility) before converting the power into the chosen output type. As a consequence the Energy Bridge has an internal power buffer that's very easy to overwhelm, probably on purpose. Energy Bridges also don't output any more power than they need to to run connected machinery. Because of the way engines work in the BuildCraft style, excess power they generate just gets lost in the cable, so I actually suspect that any power loop you would try would cancel itself out through "cable-burn".
 

DoctorOr

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I dunno. Greg's balance decisions just don't fit well. For example, hardmode macerator is just useless and out of place in Ultimate.

The macerator is always useless, due to the pulverizer. This doesn't change, hardmode or not. The only way to change it would be to set macerator to IC2 base and pulverizer on hard mode.

In a game with fewer mods, where the macerator is the first ingot increasing option, then hardmode is simply that and not useless.
 

Neirin

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The macerator is always useless, due to the pulverizer. This doesn't change, hardmode or not. The only way to change it would be to set macerator to IC2 base and pulverizer on hard mode.

In a game with fewer mods, where the macerator is the first ingot increasing option, then hardmode is simply that and not useless.

I plan to use a heavily overclocked macerator as my on-demand coal dust generator for my AE system. Nothing can compete with its speed, so there's that. It's definitely a niche usage, but frankly I'm discovering that with the industrial grinder for later-game and the induction smelter for early game, there's not much point in getting a pulverizer either.
 
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KirinDave

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This is a poorly known fact but there's a cap to the amount of circuit tubes of a specific type you can fit on a single board, probably to avoid precisely this problem. The 5:2 ratio is a very common one and Sengir probably accounted for its popularity when designing his own system.

What I don't remember is whether the choke cap is low enough to avoid this problem but if I recall correctly you are capped to one choke tube per board. Confirmation either way would be welcome. In theory though if you could fit four then yes you would get a power loop roughly equivalent to half an Advanced Solar Panel. I suppose that's not a trivial amount of free power.

You can hit that ratio with 2 iron tubes or 1 iron tube and 1 choke tube. See the documentation. You start at 6:2, but two efficiency Is would bring you to 4:2. Are you allowed to have 2 efficiency tubes?

The other important factor to consider there is that the Energy Bridge works by converting power types from other mods into its own unique internal power type (which I think MFR also uses and MFR should be able to use power from any source because of this compatibility) before converting the power into the chosen output type. As a consequence the Energy Bridge has an internal power buffer that's very easy to overwhelm, probably on purpose. Energy Bridges also don't output any more power than they need to to run connected machinery. Because of the way engines work in the BuildCraft style, excess power they generate just gets lost in the cable, so I actually suspect that any power loop you would try would cancel itself out through "cable-burn".

You'd do what you do in IC2 anyways, output to a power source, transform down to a lower voltage if necessary, then loop back to your feeder power source and other batteries. Even if your engine throttles down, RECs can overcome this easily, so long as you have a lot of storage in your IC2 power network.