Ok so it doesn't affect your game at all just your ego. Like I said before, stop looking at your neighbor.
GregTech vs. EE (My argument *against* the addition of EE)
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Ok so it doesn't affect your game at all just your ego. Like I said before, stop looking at your neighbor.
There are parts of GregTech that could possibly be changed for the better, however I feel it's fine as it is. A little more fine tuning might be necessary since so many people can't handle things being difficult, but honestly it's not that bad. The alternate Macerator recipe was excessively hard since it required 3 Diamonds if I recall correctly, and since Macerators are usually something you use multiple of. But I don't think anything about GregTech is really as hard as people make it out to be. So Solar Panels essentially require a stack of Sand to get those 2 Silicon Cells plus a bit more for the Glass Panes, so what? That's what I hear the most complaints about. Honestly I'm more annoyed by the Carbon Plates because Coal is something I don't always have as much of. But it's okay, it's only 8 Coal.
Anyways, yeah, on topic.
You just seem to hate me for some reason. I assume because I criticized your beloved EE and applauded your loathed GregTech. However please refrain from falsely speaking of my own ego while not keeping yours in check.
No part of server play is some ego boost or epeen contest to me. I like gameplay where everyone has the same set of rules, the same access to things. This is why I don't play servers where donators get benefits. Or where the moderators think they're above the rules the rest of the players have to follow.
You may not view EE as very much of an advantage since you can obtain blocks by other means, but other players essentially have access to a useful method of exchanging blocks that I don't, if I choose not to use it. While I might have to spend an extra hour mining of the Diamonds I need while sitting on a large excess of Iron, they would just exchange their Iron.
I hope there is a true cost to it, not just the item you need for transformations degrading. You should lose some of the item or get some item you don't want out of it as well. But either of those things is just more a GregTech copy. Mostly anything they could do to make it more balanced is just making it more like GregTech. And why do that? I thought there weren't supposed to be mods that did the same thing as an existing mod. Yes I'm aware EE lets you exchange more items than GregTech does, but it's easier. I also thought there weren't supposed to be mods that made something easier than doing it with another mod.
Just and FYI, you will have to use multiple Minium Stones to make a single diamond out of cobble (It's durability will run out before you finish)
Indeed, reading the ramblings of several individuals arguing about two completely different modifications is certainly entertaining.
They're not completely different. GregTech is a way more advanced mod, but part of it allows you to exchange items. EE only allows you to exchange items, and doesn't really do anything else that's special. The only difference in exchanging items is that, well, they do it differently. But generally EE's way of exchanging items is easier, which is what I don't like. With GregTech you're also using lots of machinery, which feels cool in a way. Very advanced and sciencey. EE is just crafting.
No. I don't hate you. You just don't understand. You keep wanting to treat Minecraft as if it's some sort of contest. "He has an advantage because he uses EE." Time and time again you fail to realize that there's no disadvantage to you not using it. I asked you to name just one, and all you could come up with is how you don't like it and it bothers you, which brings me back to my "The Minecraft Universe doesn't revolve around you or your ego." It doesn't matter whether you don't like it or it bothers you.
Everyone DOES start with the same rules and access to the same items. You choose whether or not to use them. Should buildcraft be removed from the mod packs/servers because I CHOOSE not to build a quarry or pipes? Of course not! Would I have less than everyone else? Sure. Would I care? Nope.
And since you didn't bother reading it/forgot. I don't like Gregtech and have never used EE. I saw some videos where people used EE2, and it didn't interest me. I might look into EE3, but I doubt I'll use it. Never have I defended one over the other. My point from the beginning has been if you don't like it, disable it or don't use it. Your only argument has been that it should be removed so people don't use it on servers because it affects your ego.
Here's the problem. You enjoy technology; not all mods are technology based nor should they be because not everyone enjoys them. FTB is also not fueled by solely by science. You enjoy it you use it; you don't enjoy it you don't use it. Super simple stuff.
My problem with "gregtech" is that it just adds more TIME to do something, that's it. That's not balancing in my eyes. It's just making things more tedious. The mod has some great things about it but I don't like the direction it has taken. Gregtech is probably FINE by itself and IC2, but once you start mixing it up, which obviously will be needed, it's another ballpark. Adding computercraft turtles(the most OP mod since EE2), quarries, frame quarries(in the future), automated mining and what not. That's basically how you "play" gregtech. All it does is increase the amount of time you need to do something.
I won't mention EE3 because it really isn't even "out" yet. Like some people probably already mentioned, gregtech is about "science" and EE is about magic. See the difference?
You already know the reason why EE is more popular than gregtech. Because it's easy to play with and that's why people love it and get so upset over the removal of the condensers, collectors and so forth. Gregtech isn't easy. That's the problem with it. The whole point of the mod is to increase the amount of time to do something. Which of course is negated(to some degree) by having mods that have some form of "auto"-mining involved in them. My point is all mods become op at some point. Even gregtech gets way out of hand.
<edit> I forgot to add that I "love" IC2 as it is. I've played with that mod since... I don't even remember how long. It's one of my favorite mods, because it's simple, easy... and when it wants to be it can be "complicated". IC2 has a low starting point, I like that. I understand the hate for "free" energy, but I love the way that IC2 has a power "storage", something that BC and Forestry lacks.
I won't mention EE3 because it really isn't even "out" yet. Like some people probably already mentioned, gregtech is about "science" and EE is about magic. See the difference?
You already know the reason why EE is more popular than gregtech. Because it's easy to play with and that's why people love it and get so upset over the removal of the condensers, collectors and so forth. Gregtech isn't easy. That's the problem with it. The whole point of the mod is to increase the amount of time to do something. Which of course is negated(to some degree) by having mods that have some form of "auto"-mining involved in them. My point is all mods become op at some point. Even gregtech gets way out of hand.
<edit> I forgot to add that I "love" IC2 as it is. I've played with that mod since... I don't even remember how long. It's one of my favorite mods, because it's simple, easy... and when it wants to be it can be "complicated". IC2 has a low starting point, I like that. I understand the hate for "free" energy, but I love the way that IC2 has a power "storage", something that BC and Forestry lacks.
This debate is flawed (on both sides) on a couple levels. First, it assumes that there will be a 'base' FTB Pack, which isn't the case. There will be the Magic Pack (currently exists, and will add EE3 whenever it's ready), the Tech Pack, which will have GregTech, but not EE3/Thaumcraft, and (eventually) the Ultimate Pack, which I hope has nearly everything. I'm betting there'll be servers for each. Which is the second point. Saying that "if the 'base' pack has EE3, most servers will have it," is speculation, and likely inaccurate. Back in the day, when I played Tekkit (don't hate), many, if not most, of the decent servers had EE2 disabled or drastically nerfed. There's no reason to believe that will be different for FTB if EE3 is as overpowered as people think it will be.
There will be a "base" pack, actually. It'll be the one designed for the FTB map, and it'll replace the current Beta A pack. There will also be Magic World, Tech World, Ultimate, and some people (such as Direwolf20) will have their own, customized packs distributed through the launcher as well. But when people say the "base" pack or the "main" pack, they're usually referring to the one that will be used for the map. I highly suspect that most people will be using Dire's however, and we have NO idea what exactly will be in that, really. Though "IC2, RedPower2, Forestry, BuildCraft, TC3, EE3, XyCraft, MFFS, and some others" is probably a good guess.
None of this has to do with ego. I don't like EE because it feels overpowered and cheaty. On a server that has it enabled, most people of that server will probably use it. There will be things they can do that I can't. Does this bother you? Apparently not. Does it bother me? Yes.
Yes, everyone technically has access to the same things. But if they don't want to use them, they're at a disadvantage.
It's nothing to do with ego, I just like everyone having the same rules. So it comes down to, I can have the same rules as everyone else, if I play the game in a way that feels cheaty which I do not like. Or I can avoid that by restricting myself from using EE, but then I have different rules than everyone else and can't do the same things.
So again, if you restrict yourself from not using it because you don't like it, you're at a disadvantage. Really, it'll only take you longer to do things. Yes, I know Minecraft isn't a competition. I don't like it though. I don't like everyone else having access to something I choose not to. It's like if you were to join a server and they gave you the option to have a Diamond spawned in front of you every day you login. As a "reward" for signing in that day. You can choose no if it feels cheaty. You can choose yes if you want it. Those who choose no are at a disadvantage. Could they spend a bit of time mining and find a Diamond anyways? Yeah. Well those other people who chose yes get extra Diamonds though? Yeah.
And yes, I know EE3 does it at the expense of other items. But almost everybody has excess of something that they don't need. The most common I find is Gold. Surprisingly, a lot of people seem to have unused Gold.
It would be like the fact that everyone can use eBay. It's a great place to sell things at that you don't want anymore, and probably one of the best places to get the most money. Well what if you don't allow yourself to use eBay because you don't like it for whatever reason? You're at a disadvantage. You can sell your items elsewhere, but you'll probably not get as much money for them. This means you have less money to buy other things with.
This is the same as GregTech and EE. EE gives you the most "value" per exchange, meaning you can get the most of something else. GregTech consumes some of the "value" per exchange, meaning some of the item is lost, with some things like centrifuging, you get additional items you don't always want, etc.
Now I realize in the real world you want the most money. However in gameplay, more challenging gameplay should be the goal. Over time games have gone from being 8-bit and hard on a level of being just plain hard, and while this isn't fun for some people, it was for others. But, as games have evolved, they've been able to do more things that "just plain hard" which requires good reflexes and skills. They've made games that are "hard" however playable by anyone. To me, GregTech is this type of hard. It's doable by anyone, no skill is really required, but it's harder than EE.
I understand this, I'm just saying, I think the process is more fun, more intricate, and more rewarding when you have to run things through multiple machines and do more complex processes to produce something. EE is just put things in a crafting table with a stone and get an item out. It doesn't make sense. There's no "magic" behind it, magic is only a descriptive word that I used since the process doesn't make logical sense. How does gold plus a stone turn into a diamond, a completely different thing? I understand not all of FTB is meant to be science based and make logical sense, but EE, as a mod that only makes easier what you can do already, doesn't have much going for it, when the process isn't even fun or rewarding.
Now I think you're right when you say time isn't balancing. It can't be just thrown in and presto, you have balanced gameplay. However GregTech does it in a way that I think mostly works. Sure when you're trying to work towards something, having to wait a long time is tedious. Needing UU-Matter or certain things centrifuged to progress so you can build whatever, yeah, it can be annoying. However that's generally building up to something like Quantum Armor or Hybrid Solar Panels which are late-game things anyways.
Once you've built up to having the key things you want to have, both the Industrial Centrifuge and the Matterfabricator become something that turns something into something else. And in that application of the machines, them taking time creates an amount of balance I feel is reasonable. It's annoying when you're going for key items like Solar Panels or whatnot, but you don't have to deal with that for long, and those machines can run when you do other stuff as well. When you get to trying to use them to transform items, it gets a lot more balanced in the time it'll take.
Also for what it's worth, I agree with you on ComputerCraft Turtles. They're very overpowered. I feel they're slightly balanced by the fact that they can only do basic things, things like what a Quarry does, only they can do it sideways for example. However if you can program them, they can do more advanced things. Unfortunately that's still overpowered because they only require you to know Lua, and Lua is an incredibly simple language. If they required you to program them in ASM or C, I'd feel that's a better balance, since those languages are harder to learn and less people know them. However a lot of 12 year old kids would probably feel like even C is ultra hard mode. And a majority of people would probably find the concepts of ASM and system calls to be impossible, so that'll never happen.
Honestly I like the default unchanged pack right now as it is. There are things I want added, like RedPower for example. After hearing more about EE3, I wouldn't be completely against EE3 being added to the default pack. I wouldn't like it, that's for sure, but I don't think it'd put me off from playing servers. However with the amount of votes there are for the removal of GregTech I think that's something I have to consider. Again, adding EE3 I wouldn't like, but I'd be okay with. However removing GregTech would not be okay. I know lots of people hate it, but lots of people certainly like it too, not just me. And any server that doesn't have GregTech I certainly wouldn't play. So I hope they never remove it. If they add EE3, whatever, I'll just probably not use it. Or I might try it, and if it feels okay and not like cheating, I'll change my mind about it and continue. So far though EE3's not looking impressive.
Oh, the map pack? Hadn't thought of that. Given the nature of the challenges, I'm thinking that's pretty much guaranteed to include EE3. Regardless, I think we've established that there should be plenty of choices =)
Yeah, I'm aware Direwolf20 is having a pack built to his specifications that will be in the launcher. Honestly, I don't like that he gets a pack that'll probably be highly used just because he has a lot of fans, probably because he does mod spotlights.
Don't get me wrong, he's a cool guy, seems like the kind of person I'd like. But he uses too many mods for my liking. The kind of mods that make the game easier. And that was pretty much the original point of mods. As someone who's played since Alpha Minecraft, in the beginning, not a lot of mods added anything too advanced, they all pretty much made the game easier in some way. And this is what really put me off about mods, and I hadn't even looked at them until recently.
My original thoughts when I heard FTB was a modpack with 30ish mods was "Oh that's stupid, how can anyone stand to play like that." However I watched VintageBeef's MindCrack series on it. In the beginning I saw the inventory buttons, immediately thought "I don't like this, that probably gives you free stuff or something. That's probably a smaller version of this Equivalent Exchange I've been hearing of" but kept watching for some reason. When I saw EU values of items, I thought that was some part of EE. I wasn't aware EE wasn't even a part of the pack. But when they started mining and there were extra interesting sounding ores like Tin and Copper, that got my attention. When they started building machines, and when I saw the process of getting rubber from special trees with a tap, I started liking it a lot more.
So FTB is really the reason that I like mods. Had I not seen FTB, I'd probably still think all mods are just stupid things to make the game easier. Like when I first saw BuildCraft on it's own, what I saw was Quarrys and pipes. I thought "That's stupid. It mines and even sorts into chests for you, that's just total easy mode" without being aware that obtaining these things wasn't completely simple like obtaining vanilla items is. I wasn't even aware of it's value for adding more to the game in a very intricate and fun way.
Anyways the whole point of this is, I see a lot of the mods that Direwolf20 favors as these type of "easy mode" mods. And I know a lot of people like the same mods that he likes. While we're a minority though, a lot of us like gameplay that has a lot of stuff added to it and is harder too. Direwolf20 seems (I don't know if he's ever mentioned what he prefers in his videos, forgive me for not watching anything other than the mod spotlights really) like the kind of guy that likes lots of things added to the game, and doesn't care if some of them (EE) make the game easier. I think he might even like easy.
So for the "minority group" that prefers more things and harder gameplay, Direwolf20's pack is the nightmare nuke if my perception of what it'll be is anywhere near accurate. A lot of people like the same mods as his, therefore a lot of servers will use it due to either popular demand or the admin(s) liking it. So it'll be hard to find a good quality server using the more "hard mode" packs. There will be some, but they won't be as numerous.
Also, the reason EE2 was disabled in a lot of servers before is because there was really no arguing at all that it was just overpowered as heck. I think the main reasons EE3 is looked at as less overpowered is because the developer says that's what he is trying to do, and it only looks a bit like that. Sorry, but removing just the overpowered blocks isn't a real solution. It fixes part of the problem, but you have to fix the core of the problem, which is that 1:1 exchange according to set values isn't fair. There should be some sort of cost in there. Some loss of input items, some "magic energy" since I know EE3 will probably never make use of EU, something.
EE3 mostly seems more balanced because of those changes and because the developer says it is. However from a neutral standpoint, never knowing anything about previous EE versions or the developers intentions, I'm sure a lot less people would say it's going to be balanced, and a lot more people would see it as overpowered. Basically people like to say it's balanced because "Oh he's trying to make it balanced, it'll get better" but I don't know that it really will. I don't foresee any truly balancing changes being made.[DOUBLEPOST=1355560127][/DOUBLEPOST]
I'm aware that for the map, EE is a core part of it. However as I said before, more focus needs to be applied to what FTB has evolved to, which is a very good and very fun extension to Single and Multi Player Minecraft. Include EE for the modpack made for the map? Sure. Include it for the default play pack? I think it's better not to. Remove GregTech from the modpack made for the map? Okay maybe, if it fits with the map, I never really played the map. Remove GregTech from the default play pack? Certainly not!
Yes, choices are a good thing. However I feel that the packs should be well separated. It should feel better to use the default play pack for playing FTB in Single or Multi Player, and it should only feel right to use the map based pack with the map. That way you don't get a whole bunch of servers trying to use the map based pack just because it has EE in it.
And I feel that EE should be excluded from the default play pack unless it undergoes a lot more changes to add actual balance. But again, most things they could do to balance it just make it more and more like GregTech, so I still don't see why you'd add it to the default play pack.
There is no default pack, though. There are a ton of choices, because we all play differently. I don't really use GregTech much. There's a pack for that. You really like GregTech, but not EE. There's a pack for that. Some other guy wants just all the magic mods. There's a pack for that. Want as manyI mods asfrom possible? Theres a packbit for that. There's no real "default" pack. I suspect many will use dw's pack, just because it allows for a ton of neat builds, and because it'll be easy to learn the mods from his videos. But there will still be magic world and tech world and ultimate that people will be using, too. Technically, Tekkit is loads easier than FTB. Yet look how many servers are switching over. Don't count the evil chickens before they hatch. I'm sure tons of people will be setting up servers that play the way you like.[DOUBLEPOST=1355560967][/DOUBLEPOST]Guh. Autocorrect screwed me over there. Sorry about that. I'll fix it tomorrow. Almost 4AM here. I'm going to bed xD g'night
having read this thread it really comes down to superrikku11 not liking Equivalent Exchange because it is not complicated enough IN HIS OPINION and again like everyone is saying then just dont use it anyone else using it affects you in no possible way at all and dont say "yes it does because they have x item and i dont" then go out and MINE FOR THE DAMN OBJECT if you want it so much or kill them with a sword and steal it or ask them for it but dont behave like having the mod somehow lessens YOUR gameplay experience if your not using it because it doesnt in any way.
and if you keep simply reiterating the non issue that it affects your gameplay because you dont like or use it then i will simply report you to the moderators for being a troll since at that point you will be
and if you keep simply reiterating the non issue that it affects your gameplay because you dont like or use it then i will simply report you to the moderators for being a troll since at that point you will be
That's pure EGO. It bothers you. Why? What does them having more stuff than you do to your game play. Absolutely nothing. Like I said. It comes down to choice. Should quarries be removed from a server because I happen to choose not to use them? If they aren't, everyone will have more stuff than me! I'd never expect anything to be removed from Minecraft just because I choose not to use it unless it was actually server/map damaging.
I guess that's the difference between us. If I choose not to use something, it doesn't bother me if others do. I'm not in a competition with them anyways. You on the other hand, if you choose not to use something no one else can either otherwise it bothers you that they can get more stuff, which is your really problem not everyone else's.
I'm disappointed this is the type of community this is. However I've come to learn this is how most non-intellectual communities are, especially ones that revolve around games since they attract more younger people.
I'm trying to make points and an argument here against the addition of something I feel is game ruining. With the amount of writing, time, effort I've put into this, there's no way I can remotely be considered a troll. No troll is this determined.
However I make an argument against something that people like because it makes the game easier and I get flamed and attacked by real trolls.
And I'm very aware of the fact I don't like it is all you chose to gather from all this. There is far more content, lots of which is non-biased, against EE. But you only choose to see the fact that I dislike it. Therefore you disregard everything I say. Frickin cheaty easy mode lovin' noobs. (lol)
Feel what you want about it. I guess in the end it does come down to opinion. But consider something like an xray texture pack. Does it impede someone else's ability to play the game if you use xray texture packs? No, it doesn't. Does it give you an advantage if you do? Well if you really want to be stubborn about it you can say it's not spawning items and you still have to dig down to them, so it's not an advantage. So tell me, you support xray texture packs? You sound like the type that does.
However, why are xray texture packs against the rules for most servers? Because they're a cheat. No matter what you say, that is commonly agreed upon. You get an unfair advantage.
Why was EE2 disabled in a lot of servers? Because it was basically a cheat. Is EE3 much better? Maybe. Are the changes going to sufficiently restrict it though? Really it comes down to opinion, but myself and I'm sure many others think not, and will still dislike EE3.
I feel like EE is overrated because it originally made things easy as heck. And there's too many cheaty easy mode lovin' noobs. Or neophytes if you prefer a more civilized term. It's overrated attention has carried it through versions to where it is now though. Still something that's cheaty and overpowered, but because people are contrasting it with previous versions, it doesn't appear as cheaty and over powered. Try contrasting it with a different item exchange system though. Like villager trading. That's highly restricted in what you can get. It's still helpful, but highly restricted. Try GregTech. It's more complex, requires more things, has a higher cost. In contrast to GregTech, EE is way too easy. Stop comparing EE to previous versions to make it look better. Because especially in previous versions, it shouldn't have gotten nearly enough attention for it to even be a commonly known name.
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