GregTech vs. EE (My argument *against* the addition of EE)

[superriku11]

For GregTech, you take a stack of netherrack, stick it in a machine, wait a bit, pull it out, stick it in a workbench with flint, put it in another machine, then wait awhile.
The energy distribution is automatic. You dump a stack of coal (coke) in a generator. Boom. Done.

For EE3, you first need the minimum stone, which you have to craft, and it runs out. So you kill a bunch of mobs (in the current version). Not hard, but harder than throwing a stack of coal in a generator. Then, you stick cobble (which, if you're mining the normal way, is harder to get than netherrack, else it's the same) in a crafting table, make as much as you can, then go make another stone, which means farming more mobs. Meanwhile, the GregTech machine is still running, without you doing ANYTHING. Then, you have to manually craft all the various "tiers" of materials to work your way up to a single diamond. So let's count it in terms of interface interactions:

GregTech
1 (Dumping a stack of netherrack in the machine)
1 (Dumping coal in the generator)
1 (Grabbing stuff from the centrifuge. Can be automated, if you want)
1 (Crafting Table for coal ball)
1 (crafting Table for coal block)
1 (Compressor for block->diamond)
Total: 6, and a bit of waiting time, in which you can go do something productive.
Total Resources Used: 64 Netherrack, some coal.

EE3
1 (Minium Stone crafting)
16 (Cobble -> Wood. Assuming Shift+Click. 1024/1521 Transmutations used from the stone)
2 (Wood -> Obsidian, another 128 used from the stone. It's at 1152/1521)
1 (Obsidian-> Iron. 32 transmutations more. 1184/1521)
1 (Iron->Gold. 4 transmutes more. 1188/1521)
1( Gold -> Diamond 1 more transmute. 1189/1521)
Total: 22, and the need to go farm a bunch of mobs beforehand.
Total Resources Used: 8192 cobble (Same EMC as Netherrack, btw). Some sword durability (fighting mobs). 4 iron, 1 gold. Which, as you'll recall, is one fourth of the diamond to begin with.
Also correction to my previous post: The minium stone needs 8 shards of minium, 4 iron, 4 smooth stone, and 1 gold ingot for each one. So those are what you need to have before you start making diamonds.

So I say that GregTech is easier. On top of that, you can actually automate most of the process of GregTech's version, and you probably aren't even using just a regular generator for it, so you could possibly knock out the coal cost.

I see what you're saying. Honestly I'm glad you made this argument rather than just being a jerk about it like some people.

In counter to this, getting the stone is just about as hard as getting the machines. To get the machines you need to mine for a fair bit of resources essentially. To get the stone, you have to kill a bunch of mobs. Once you have the machine or you have the stone, things get easier. Once you have the machines, you can do stuff, but it'll take lots of energy and time. Once you have the stone though, you do things instantly. I don't consider interface clicks to be "difficult" on any level. And that process could be automated with pipes and Autocrafting Tables just as the GregTech process could be automated the same way.

Also, Cobblestone wouldn't be the block of choice for exchanging for Diamonds in this scenario. You choose whatever block is most efficient. In GregTech, Netherrack is most efficient, requiring 1,024 (16 stacks) of it, plus some Flint and an Obsidian for one Diamond. In EE, I forget how much Sand is needed, but it's a lot less than 8192 I'm pretty sure.





I'm fairly glad you made this argument though. I wasn't fully aware of this, so I feel a bit better about EE. Still I don't like the idea of turning ores into other ores though, it just feels cheaty.

 

[Dex Luther]

Stop thinking that I believe everything revolves around me. You're extremely rude in your replies when you add those unnecessary remarks.

As I said, I intend to better represent those opposed to EE. Lots of people come just saying they don't like EE or that it's too overpowered without presenting many or any reasons at all. I'm trying to present everything I can against EE that is relevant to how it is overpowered. Those who have come to just say they don't like it are hopeless against the "HURR I LIEK EASY MODE" army that fights for EE.

EE is like a cheat, but a somewhat restricted one. You can get as many Diamonds as you want as long as you have the Iron for it. Almost everybody has excess Iron in a time of need for Diamonds. You should have to go find those Diamonds though. Not only does it give a feeling of much more accomplishment, but it also balances the game and makes you go slower rather than just "Okay I've got no Diamonds and 20 stacks of Iron, let's just turn this all to stacks of Diamond". You can get stacks or Iron in an hour's worth of mining. However stacks of Diamonds is closer to days worth of mining.

You should have to go find the diamonds only because YOU say so, which is exactly why I keep saying the game doesn't revolve around you. What's the difference between EE and someone just giving you the diamonds? Is that a cheat too? It's a whole lot easier than EE.

Your whole argument against EE is based off YOUR ideals of how the game should be. From the very beginning of this thread people keep telling you that if you don't like it don't use it, but you keep on about how others will be using it. You refuse to accept the fact that the game doesn't conform to how YOU think it should be, and how others play the game has no affect on you at all.

 

[Narcisism]

I see what you're saying. Honestly I'm glad you made this argument rather than just being a jerk about it like some people.

In counter to this, getting the stone is just about as hard as getting the machines. To get the machines you need to mine for a fair bit of resources essentially. To get the stone, you have to kill a bunch of mobs. Once you have the machine or you have the stone, things get easier. Once you have the machines, you can do stuff, but it'll take lots of energy and time. Once you have the stone though, you do things instantly. I don't consider interface clicks to be "difficult" on any level. And that process could be automated with pipes and Autocrafting Tables just as the GregTech process could be automated the same way.

Also, Cobblestone wouldn't be the block of choice for exchanging for Diamonds in this scenario. You choose whatever block is most efficient. In GregTech, Netherrack is most efficient, requiring 1,024 (16 stacks) of it, plus some Flint and an Obsidian for one Diamond. In EE, I forget how much Sand is needed, but it's a lot less than 8192 I'm pretty sure.





I'm fairly glad you made this argument though. I wasn't fully aware of this, so I feel a bit better about EE. Still I don't like the idea of turning ores into other ores though, it just feels cheaty.

The difference between the minium stone and the machine is that you make the machine once, and it works indefinitely. You have to continually remake the minium stone, so I'm treating the minium stone's durability as the same as GT's energy. Both need gathering in some way. The biggest difference is that you can make a ton of EU a lot easier, and much more automated than EE's minium shards. The mobs only drop the shard if a player kills them, so the time that GregTech takes to make the items is balanced by the act of manually taking the time to kill the mobs. Even with a mob farm, that takes time. The crafting is nearly instantaneous, but the prep time is higher. For GT, there's almost no prep time, but the crafting time is higher. And the GT one can be sped up at a one-time cost of another Centrifuge. It doesn't actually cost any more EU (overall) because you use double the EU at once, but you finish using it twice as fast, too. So you use double the EU for half the time. They cancel out to be the same EU cost, overall. Can't really do that with EE. And yeah, I wouldn't use cobblestone, I'd use iron. But I have to mine that, too, and it means I can't use that iron for building a nuke or something.

I mean, how many uses can you think of for 96 iron? I can think of TONS. And by making that diamond, I'm blocking out the ability to use that 96 iron for something else. And that's just one diamond. You'll likely need more for something useful. Sometimes, cobble really is the most efficient, just because you have a metric ton of it sitting around, doing nothing useful, so why not make a diamond?

EDIT: Oh, go back and read the edit on the post you quoted. I clarified a couple things about automation and a mistake I'd made.

EDIT2: I keep coming up with something else. I dub myself "King of the Afterthought". Anyway, I think your comparison to a speedhack in a FPS is VERY off. As someone else said, FPSs are competitive games. Minecraft really isn't. It's a sandbox, and it CAN be competitive, in certain game modes, but usually it isn't.
When you use a speedhack in a FPS, you directly affect another person's game. When you use EE on a server in Minecraft, no one else is really affected. In fact, I'd say that it actually make it easier to play the way you want to if someone else is using EE to get their diamonds. Those diamonds that they're making instead of mining are just sitting in the ground, waiting for you to mine them. So you actually get the same / more diamonds than you would get on a server without EE, just because no one is mining them anymore. Works out nicely, for you.

 

[superriku11]

You should have to go find the diamonds only because YOU say so, which is exactly why I keep saying the game doesn't revolve around you. What's the difference between EE and someone just giving you the diamonds? Is that a cheat too? It's a whole lot easier than EE.

Your whole argument against EE is based off YOUR ideals of how the game should be. From the very beginning of this thread people keep telling you that if you don't like it don't use it, but you keep on about how others will be using it. You refuse to accept the fact that the game doesn't conform to how YOU think it should be, and how others play the game has no affect on you at all.

Giving yourself the Diamonds is certainly a cheat, I don't think there's any arguing against that. Also on the point I forgot to address earlier, I know some servers give benefits to donators. I don't play on those servers.

I realize I have been using my ideas for how I think the game should be. However I can't see how anyone does think it's fair to be able to turn essentially any other ore into Diamonds, or anything else. It's certainly a play style that I understand some like, but it's not really fair or balanced. I just don't see much reason to add EE when what is essentially a more challenging version already exists.

 

[superriku11]

The difference between the minium stone and the machine is that you make the machine once, and it works indefinitely. You have to continually remake the minium stone, so I'm treating the minium stone's durability as the same as GT's energy. Both need gathering in some way. The biggest difference is that you can make a ton of EU a lot easier, and much more automated than EE's minium shards. The mobs only drop the shard if a player kills them, so the time that GregTech takes to make the items is balanced by the act of manually taking the time to kill the mobs. Even with a mob farm, that takes time. The crafting is nearly instantaneous, but the prep time is higher. For GT, there's almost no prep time, but the crafting time is higher. And the GT one can be sped up at a one-time cost of another Centrifuge. It doesn't actually cost any more EU (overall) because you use double the EU at once, but you finish using it twice as fast, too. So you use double the EU for half the time. They cancel out to be the same EU cost, overall. Can't really do that with EE. And yeah, I wouldn't use cobblestone, I'd use iron. But I have to mine that, too, and it means I can't use that iron for building a nuke or something.

I mean, how many uses can you think of for 96 iron? I can think of TONS. And by making that diamond, I'm blocking out the ability to use that 96 iron for something else. And that's just one diamond. You'll likely need more for something useful. Sometimes, cobble really is the most efficient, just because you have a metric ton of it sitting around, doing nothing useful, so why not make a diamond?

EDIT: Oh, go back and read the edit on the post you quoted. I clarified a couple things about automation and a mistake I'd made.

EDIT2: I keep coming up with something else. I dub myself "King of the Afterthought". Anyway, I think your comparison to a speedhack in a FPS is VERY off. As someone else said, FPSs are competitive games. Minecraft really isn't. It's a sandbox, and it CAN be competitive, in certain game modes, but usually it isn't.
When you use a speedhack in a FPS, you directly affect another person's game. When you use EE on a server in Minecraft, no one else is really affected. In fact, I'd say that it actually make it easier to play the way you want to if someone else is using EE to get their diamonds. Those diamonds that they're making instead of mining are just sitting in the ground, waiting for you to mine them. So you actually get the same / more diamonds than you would get on a server without EE, just because no one is mining them anymore. Works out nicely, for you.

I like how you say both need gathering...

However I'll speak on your point about EU for a second here. EU is easy to get in a sense, depending on how you do it. However getting enough EU for all those machines is where things get tricky. Solar Panels are costly, especially the Advanced and Hybrid ones. I like EU better because it's building. You're always building up to being able to generate more energy. Where minium from mob drops is just a grind. You gotta constantly kill more mobs for more stones. Once your EU generation systems are built you get to keep using them. Nothing should be too repetitive, and having to kill tons of mobs, even if you use a one-fist-hit-kill mob grinder, is tedious and repetitive. It's hard in a sense, but it's not really hard, it's more annoying than hard.

So ultimately, EE tries to cap things by how many mobs you feel like grinding. While GregTech tries to cap things by time. GT gives you the option of reducing the amount of time at the cost of more energy. Energy is most practical from some higher level solar panels or a Nuclear Reactor. Neither of these are too hard to make, but using your Uranium for Advanced Solar Panels reduces how much you'll be able to use in a Nuclear Reactor. So really, EE is more repetitive. GregTech can be repetitive if you go the Nuclear Reactor route, since you have to mine for more Uranium, but if you're smart you'll use some of your power to run a Quarry which will get Uranium for you. Ultimately I like automation that you can build up to rather than grinding you'll have to do forever, or for a long time.

And yes, I know Nuclear Reactors are actually an Industrial Craft 2 thing. However GregTech is an addon to IC2 and I'm referring to Nuclear Reactors as a GT thing just because you can use the power from them for GT things.



Also, either I'm confused or you're confused. The GregTech method can be sped up with more centrifuges, but it does cost more EU. And actually, it uses double the EU in the same amount of time, not half the time. The centrifuges still take the same amount of time, but having two running at once means you'll get double the items at the end. You will double the power pull (voltage a.k.a. EU/t) and power usage (stored EUs) though.




I like your last point however. But, even though there'll be more Diamonds in the ground for me, in one way of thinking about it, they can all still probably get them faster than I can. They'll just transform whatever's on hand when they need Diamonds. So again, you're at a disadvantage if you do not use EE.



I like that you actually give points and reasons though, rather than "You're just wrong because you are. EE is good and you can't argue."

 

[Dex Luther]

Giving yourself the Diamonds is certainly a cheat, I don't think there's any arguing against that. Also on the point I forgot to address earlier, I know some servers give benefits to donators. I don't play on those servers.

I realize I have been using my ideas for how I think the game should be. However I can't see how anyone does think it's fair to be able to turn essentially any other ore into Diamonds, or anything else. It's certainly a play style that I understand some like, but it's not really fair or balanced. I just don't see much reason to add EE when what is essentially a more challenging version already exists.

because being unfair would mean it somehow takes away something from you. You've failed to tell us exactly how someone else using EE on the server affects you in any way, shape, or form. You've been told that it doesn't affect you, but you refuse to accept that. Somehow the mere fact that SOMEONE on the server is using EE affects your ability to dig a hole and build whatever.

 

[superriku11]

because being unfair would mean it somehow takes away something from you. You've failed to tell us exactly how someone else using EE on the server affects you in any way, shape, or form. You've been told that it doesn't affect you, but you refuse to accept that. Somehow the mere fact that SOMEONE on the server is using EE affects your ability to dig a hole and build whatever.

When I have lots of Iron and need Diamonds, I'm out of luck. When they have lots of Iron and need Diamonds, they exchange Iron for Diamonds. How do you fail to see this?

When playing on a server, the whole experience is just ruined in my opinion if even one person uses cheats. It's worse if everybody does. Why do servers ban things like xray texture packs or minimaps? Lots of servers I've been on didn't allow you to use minimaps for example. Why? Because it let you see beyond where you normally could, and gave you an advantage in a sense.


Sure people using EE have an advantage when I don't. But what if I say nobody on the server is allowed to use Nuclear Reactors but me? Sure there are other ways of generating power, however Nuclear Reactors are probably the bed mid-game way. By other people not using them, they're at a disadvantage. Need more power? Too bad, you need more Solar Panels.

EE is the same thing. Have Iron need Diamonds? Okay, they just go and exchange it. In my case, I don't exchange it. I'm at a disadvantage.

 

[tedyhere]

But that doesn't tell us how it impedes YOUR progress in the game

 

[Narcisism]

I like how you say both need gathering...

However I'll speak on your point about EU for a second here. EU is easy to get in a sense, depending on how you do it. However getting enough EU for all those machines is where things get tricky. Solar Panels are costly, especially the Advanced and Hybrid ones. I like EU better because it's building. You're always building up to being able to generate more energy. Where minium from mob drops is just a grind. You gotta constantly kill more mobs for more stones. Once your EU generation systems are built you get to keep using them. Nothing should be too repetitive, and having to kill tons of mobs, even if you use a one-fist-hit-kill mob grinder, is tedious and repetitive. It's hard in a sense, but it's not really hard, it's more annoying than hard.

So ultimately, EE tries to cap things by how many mobs you feel like grinding. While GregTech tries to cap things by time. GT gives you the option of reducing the amount of time at the cost of more energy. Energy is most practical from some higher level solar panels or a Nuclear Reactor. Neither of these are too hard to make, but using your Uranium for Advanced Solar Panels reduces how much you'll be able to use in a Nuclear Reactor. So really, EE is more repetitive. GregTech can be repetitive if you go the Nuclear Reactor route, since you have to mine for more Uranium, but if you're smart you'll use some of your power to run a Quarry which will get Uranium for you. Ultimately I like automation that you can build up to rather than grinding you'll have to do forever, or for a long time.

This can vary for me. I kind of like both. Even better is if I have both available, and while the GT stuff is processing I do the EE stuff xD Multitasking ftw. But more seriously, I don't actually use EE, and this is one of the reasons. However, the method to obtain minium shards will change eventually. It won't be as simple as a mob grinder, so it should be more complex and involving in the future. The way it works right now is kind of a place holder, so he can get into functionality testing.

And yes, I know Nuclear Reactors are actually an Industrial Craft 2 thing. However GregTech is an addon to IC2 and I'm referring to Nuclear Reactors as a GT thing just because you can use the power from them for GT things.

No worries, I've been doing the same thing.

Also, either I'm confused or you're confused. The GregTech method can be sped up with more centrifuges, but it does cost more EU. And actually, it uses double the EU in the same amount of time, not half the time. The centrifuges still take the same amount of time, but having two running at once means you'll get double the items at the end. You will double the power pull (voltage a.k.a. EU/t) and power usage (stored EUs) though.

I'm going to go ahead and add "to get the same end result" to the end of my previous post. Assuming you're still trying to make one diamond, adding another Centrifuge will use twice the EU, but you'll be processing those 16 stacks of Netherrack twice as fast. Once those 16 stacks are gone, you'll stop using the Centrifuges, so they stop using EU. And because you're processing two stacks at a time, they'll be gone twice as fast.

I like your last point however. But, even though there'll be more Diamonds in the ground for me, in one way of thinking about it, they can all still probably get them faster than I can. They'll just transform whatever's on hand when they need Diamonds. So again, you're at a disadvantage if you do not use EE.

True enough, but I'm not really sure where you see a "disadvantage". You've got less diamonds, but more iron, for this example. And them having more diamonds from turning iron into diamonds doesn't really affect you in any way. If they're mining and turning all the iron into diamonds, they have less iron, more diamonds. You have more iron, but less diamonds. Like I said, Minecraft isn't really competitive. The term "disadvantage" implies that you'll be competing against other players, but I don't really see why it's an issue. Just build your stuff the way you want to, they'll build theirs' the way they want to. Them using EE doesn't directly affect your building. It will take you the same amount of time to get diamonds if you're not using EE on a server that has EE installed as it would if EE wasn't installed (assuming the same world and stuff).


EDIT: Here's a great way to try to explain it. I'll contrast an FPS and Minecraft again, but instead of a speed hack, someone has a hack that lets them change bullets from an assault rifle into a smaller amount of bullets from a sniper rifle, which this person is better at using. This means they can run around the map, picking up assault rifle bullets, then converting them to sniper bullets. So, in essence, it's the same thing as EE, but in a FPS game. It sounds a bit overpowered, and I see why it sounds overpowered in that context. FPSs are competitive, and those new sniper bullets are being directly used to impede the progress of another player, by the very nature of the game. However, Minecraft doesn't work that way. Someone else having more diamonds just means they have more diamonds. It doesn't impede your progress in any way at all, unless you're on an anarchy server, and they're using those diamonds to kill you. They have diamonds, now, but you didn't lose anything, and them being ahead of you on the "ore tree" (like a tech tree, but ores) doesn't mean anything for your builds, and you can still get your diamonds the way you want, build things the way you want, and whatever. Sure, they might advance up the tech tree a bit faster, but so what? It's not like them having fusion faster means that you can't have fusion. It just means they'll get bored and leave, probably. Or they'll destroy it all and start over. Either way, no skin off your bones.

I like that you actually give points and reasons though, rather than "You're just wrong because you are. EE is good and you can't argue."

I try I've noticed that being a jerk about it tends to just make people ignore you. Not a great way to argue.

 

[Sirbab]

I am curious though, as to why this thread is still going, was four pages not enough to exhaust all points of view? I guess not lol XD (not being a cynic, just amused)

 

[Dex Luther]

When I have lots of Iron and need Diamonds, I'm out of luck. When they have lots of Iron and need Diamonds, they exchange Iron for Diamonds. How do you fail to see this?

No, YOU don't understand. As Tedy said, how does someone doing that affect YOU. Does it mean you get less iron or diamonds? I could be wrong, but I don't think the game works that way. There isn't some formula that decides "Ok this map has 150 diamonds. Once people have used 150 diamonds there can be no more." Resources in Minecraft are virtually unlimited. I can spend 3 months doing nothing but turning cobble into diamonds and it wouldn't affect your ability to join the server tomorrow and go find some out in the wild.

You keep using the word 'disadvantage' as if Minecraft was some sort of contest. "Oh man if my neighbor uses EE he'll be able to make stacks of diamonds, and..." And what? And nothing! So what? You've failed to give even one example if it affecting anything other then your e-peen.

C'mon give us one example of something you can't do because someone's using EE on the server. I dare you. I'll even start you off:

"If someone uses EE on the server, then I can't _____________________."

Just fill in the blank. You won't though because you can't. As we've said time and time again there's absolutely no way it affects you.

 

[makeshiftwings]

Giving yourself the Diamonds is certainly a cheat, I don't think there's any arguing against that. Also on the point I forgot to address earlier, I know some servers give benefits to donators. I don't play on those servers.

I realize I have been using my ideas for how I think the game should be. However I can't see how anyone does think it's fair to be able to turn essentially any other ore into Diamonds, or anything else. It's certainly a play style that I understand some like, but it's not really fair or balanced. I just don't see much reason to add EE when what is essentially a more challenging version already exists.

But GT lets you turn essentially any other ore into Diamonds, and you said you're fine with that. GT will actually let you set up a system that generates infinite diamonds out of nothing with the matter fab, and you seem ok with that. You seem to think GT is ok because it requires "energy", but minium is essentially the same thing as energy. Energy is actually easier since there are lots of ways to have EU generate for days on end without you even logging into the server, while I believe for minium you have to actually hit the mob yourself.

 

[Narcisism]

But GT lets you turn essentially any other ore into Diamonds, and you said you're fine with that. GT will actually let you set up a system that generates infinite diamonds out of nothing with the matter fab, and you seem ok with that. You seem to think GT is ok because it requires "energy", but minium is essentially the same thing as energy. Energy is actually easier since there are lots of ways to have EU generate for days on end without you even logging into the server, while I believe for minium you have to actually hit the mob yourself.

To be fair, the MatterFab is REALLY expensive to run. Isn't it something like 500k EU for one UU matter, and you have to keep it constantly feed with scrap or it resets. So you have to keep recyclers running pretty much constantly, draining MORE EU. That's kind of end-game, so we're not really considering it that much. EE isn't meant to be that late-game, and the UU matter stuff isn't the focus of GT.

 

[Sirbab]

It's actually 16.666 million eu, and 32 scrap per operation.

 

[Narcisism]

^ Wow. See? Expensive. The thing about it resetting if it runs out of scrap is still true, I think, so be sure to keep it supplied. Here's hoping your recyclers don't hiccup, or you just lost a few million EU for nothing.

 

[superriku11]

This can vary for me. I kind of like both. Even better is if I have both available, and while the GT stuff is processing I do the EE stuff xD Multitasking ftw. But more seriously, I don't actually use EE, and this is one of the reasons. However, the method to obtain minium shards will change eventually. It won't be as simple as a mob grinder, so it should be more complex and involving in the future. The way it works right now is kind of a place holder, so he can get into functionality testing.

No worries, I've been doing the same thing.


I'm going to go ahead and add "to get the same end result" to the end of my previous post. Assuming you're still trying to make one diamond, adding another Centrifuge will use twice the EU, but you'll be processing those 16 stacks of Netherrack twice as fast. Once those 16 stacks are gone, you'll stop using the Centrifuges, so they stop using EU. And because you're processing two stacks at a time, they'll be gone twice as fast.




True enough, but I'm not really sure where you see a "disadvantage". You've got less diamonds, but more iron, for this example. And them having more diamonds from turning iron into diamonds doesn't really affect you in any way. If they're mining and turning all the iron into diamonds, they have less iron, more diamonds. You have more iron, but less diamonds. Like I said, Minecraft isn't really competitive. The term "disadvantage" implies that you'll be competing against other players, but I don't really see why it's an issue. Just build your stuff the way you want to, they'll build theirs' the way they want to. Them using EE doesn't directly affect your building. It will take you the same amount of time to get diamonds if you're not using EE on a server that has EE installed as it would if EE wasn't installed (assuming the same world and stuff).


EDIT: Here's a great way to try to explain it. I'll contrast an FPS and Minecraft again, but instead of a speed hack, someone has a hack that lets them change bullets from an assault rifle into a smaller amount of bullets from a sniper rifle, which this person is better at using. This means they can run around the map, picking up assault rifle bullets, then converting them to sniper bullets. So, in essence, it's the same thing as EE, but in a FPS game. It sounds a bit overpowered, and I see why it sounds overpowered in that context. FPSs are competitive, and those new sniper bullets are being directly used to impede the progress of another player, by the very nature of the game. However, Minecraft doesn't work that way. Someone else having more diamonds just means they have more diamonds. It doesn't impede your progress in any way at all, unless you're on an anarchy server, and they're using those diamonds to kill you. They have diamonds, now, but you didn't lose anything, and them being ahead of you on the "ore tree" (like a tech tree, but ores) doesn't mean anything for your builds, and you can still get your diamonds the way you want, build things the way you want, and whatever. Sure, they might advance up the tech tree a bit faster, but so what? It's not like them having fusion faster means that you can't have fusion. It just means they'll get bored and leave, probably. Or they'll destroy it all and start over. Either way, no skin off your bones.



I try I've noticed that being a jerk about it tends to just make people ignore you. Not a great way to argue.

There's only one really point I feel like is important to addressing here, as I agree with the rest. Which is, yes, I like anarchy servers. Basically the type of servers that are "Only rule is don't use cheats" or something like that. I'm also okay with ones that say griefing isn't okay, because that's really no fun either.

In an anarchy server it's certainly a disadvantage. I know I said I don't like PvP before, but to me, most of anarchy servers isn't PvP, because I'll just always lose in PvP since I tend not to have Diamonds. Most of anarchy servers for me is intelligently designed traps.




In response to tedyhere though, other people progressing faster than me doesn't impede my progress. What bugs me is that they can progress faster than me.

No, YOU don't understand. As Tedy said, how does someone doing that affect YOU. Does it mean you get less iron or diamonds? I could be wrong, but I don't think the game works that way. There isn't some formula that decides "Ok this map has 150 diamonds. Once people have used 150 diamonds there can be no more." Resources in Minecraft are virtually unlimited. I can spend 3 months doing nothing but turning cobble into diamonds and it wouldn't affect your ability to join the server tomorrow and go find some out in the wild.

You keep using the word 'disadvantage' as if Minecraft was some sort of contest. "Oh man if my neighbor uses EE he'll be able to make stacks of diamonds, and..." And what? And nothing! So what? You've failed to give even one example if it affecting anything other then your e-peen.

C'mon give us one example of something you can't do because someone's using EE on the server. I dare you. I'll even start you off:

"If someone uses EE on the server, then I can't _____________________."

Just fill in the blank. You won't though because you can't. As we've said time and time again there's absolutely no way it affects you.

They can transform some items I can't, as I've said. Yeah I can still get Diamonds, yeah I can still manually build up to things. However they can get Diamonds instantly by having enough of something else. I don't like EE so I wouldn't use it, but I'd be bugged by the fact they do use it and reap the benefits.

But GT lets you turn essentially any other ore into Diamonds, and you said you're fine with that. GT will actually let you set up a system that generates infinite diamonds out of nothing with the matter fab, and you seem ok with that. You seem to think GT is ok because it requires "energy", but minium is essentially the same thing as energy. Energy is actually easier since there are lots of ways to have EU generate for days on end without you even logging into the server, while I believe for minium you have to actually hit the mob yourself.

GT lets you turn anything you feel like Recycling into any other ore. You wouldn't Recycle ores though as that's a waste. And as Narcisism said, a Matterfabricator is very expensive to run. You need a constant supply of Scrap, you need a ton of energy, I'm not sure that it's 500,000 per UU-Matter, but that sounds low. And it's just slow. If you want to go fast you need more Matterfabricators and a source of high power output, such as a Nuclear Reactor setup very well, which requires learning how they work well enough to build a high efficiency one. I don't mind GT's way of doing it because it's late-middle to end-game sort of stuff. You need to be pretty well setup to have enough power to produce UU-Matter at all. To produce it at a fast rate you need to basically be at the end-game point.

 

[superriku11]

Also, wow, I'm disappointed by the amount of votes to remove GregTech and add EE. That's just ridiculous. I can understand liking EE, but why hate GregTech? I know lots of people hate it because it's harder, but that's a good thing. It's not too hard, it doesn't make it that bad to get non-GregTech items. It makes Solar Panels a bit more difficult, but it's good because they're infinite sources of energy basically. But to say remove GregTech and add EE is really just saying you're the easy mode type of player. I think most of you who voted for that should take a look at that Creative mode. Or take a look at turning cheats on, spawn as many items as you like with even less challenge.

Honestly though most of GregTech is it's own items. It does make certain things like Solar Panels harder to get, and certain things like the Fusion Reactor or AESU, they aren't in the regular IC2. So if you don't like GregTech, you don't have to use it. If you can't tolerate a more fair Solar Panel recipe, well again, take a look at Creative mode or cheats.

 

[Narcisism]

Honestly, I think the problem here is we keep saying "diamonds" and you keep thinking of it in terms of diamonds, and thinking of diamonds as the end-all be-all of everything. Diamonds really aren't that useful Iron has many, many more uses. So if they turn iron into diamonds, they lost iron. Which they could have used for refined iron or steel or something to make a ton of other things. Turning it into diamond means it can only be used for things that need diamonds. The part that's hard to grasp is that you can't measure everything in just diamonds. You're seeing the "They can just transform it into diamonds". But you forget that they are losing that iron, and they can't use it as iron unless they change it all back. You see a diamond as really valuable, and iron as almost nothing, so what you're seeing is transforming that almost-nothing into something valuable.

But trust me, that iron is REALLY valuable. It's used in damn near everything, so turning it into diamonds means that you are losing a ton of other opportunities, in exchange for the ability to make one item that needs diamonds. Don't forget that you also can turn diamonds into iron, but then you suddenly have less diamond to use for MFSUs or something. It's trading, not just magically making diamonds. Iron is valuable, man. So is copper and everything else. Making a diamond from it just means you can't make something else. It's a lot more than "Ohey look. Now I have diamonds."[DOUBLEPOST=1355547622][/DOUBLEPOST]

Also, wow, I'm disappointed by the amount of votes to remove GregTech and add EE. That's just ridiculous. I can understand liking EE, but why hate GregTech? I know lots of people hate it because it's harder, but that's a good thing. It's not too hard, it doesn't make it that bad to get non-GregTech items. It makes Solar Panels a bit more difficult, but it's good because they're infinite sources of energy basically. But to say remove GregTech and add EE is really just saying you're the easy mode type of player. I think most of you who voted for that should take a look at that Creative mode. Or take a look at turning cheats on, spawn as many items as you like with even less challenge.

Honestly though most of GregTech is it's own items. It does make certain things like Solar Panels harder to get, and certain things like the Fusion Reactor or AESU, they aren't in the regular IC2. So if you don't like GregTech, you don't have to use it. If you can't tolerate a more fair Solar Panel recipe, well again, take a look at Creative mode or cheats.

In general, the leading opinion on GregTech is that some of the changes shouldn't exist. Compression storage blocks and steel tools seem to be the biggest problems, with the Macerator changes being disabled by default in FTB because no one liked it. I'll admit I agree with compression blocks and steel tools. Makes no sense to me. Overall, though, I like a lot of GregTech's new stuff, and I love the matterfab. I just think some of the changes need to be disabled by default.

But lets not turn this into a debate thread about GregTech's whatevers. If we want to argue about that, I'll talk to ScottWears about re-opening the Debate Thread that got locked because it got a bit heated, and we can move it there. Let's keep this mostly on-topic.

 

[Sirbab]

Honestly though, watching this thread progress... shall i say, i see it not ending well or anytime soon, just something to consider, that you may be arguing over a uncompromising point. and please don't reopen that thread

 

[superriku11]

Honestly, I think the problem here is we keep saying "diamonds" and you keep thinking of it in terms of diamonds, and thinking of diamonds as the end-all be-all of everything. Diamonds really aren't that useful Iron has many, many more uses. So if they turn iron into diamonds, they lost iron. Which they could have used for refined iron or steel or something to make a ton of other things. Turning it into diamond means it can only be used for things that need diamonds. The part that's hard to grasp is that you can't measure everything in just diamonds. You're seeing the "They can just transform it into diamonds". But you forget that they are losing that iron, and they can't use it as iron unless they change it all back. You see a diamond as really valuable, and iron as almost nothing, so what you're seeing is transforming that almost-nothing into something valuable.

But trust me, that iron is REALLY valuable. It's used in damn near everything, so turning it into diamonds means that you are losing a ton of other opportunities, in exchange for the ability to make one item that needs diamonds. Don't forget that you also can turn diamonds into iron, but then you suddenly have less diamond to use for MFSUs or something. It's trading, not just magically making diamonds. Iron is valuable, man. So is copper and everything else. Making a diamond from it just means you can't make something else. It's a lot more than "Ohey look. Now I have diamonds."

I'm aware how valuable Iron is. But the problem is, even if they change it all into Diamonds, they can still change it back to, well, anything. Yeah, I get the concept that it's meant to be "equivalent" to where each item has a value. However take eBay for example. You sell something on eBay. Even if it's brand new, you can't always expect to get the manufacturer's price for it. So you'll get less money than it's "worth" most likely. Well now you got money so you can buy stuff. However whatever you buy, especially if you buy it from the manufacturer or a store at their price, means you lost a bit of money or value in there.

Basically, you can't sell a lot of things you have laying around, get money, buy a laptops, then decide "Oh actually I want to sell this and get some of that other stuff back". That works up to the last part. And in each transaction you lose a bit of money.

Part of the reason I like GT is that it's not 1:1 exchange value. You want some Diamonds from some Netherrack? Okay well unfortunately, some of that Netherrack dust will disappear, some of it will turn into other things you don't really want, and only part of it will give you the Coal Dust you want. And again, it costs lots of energy and time. It all comes at a price. If EE made it so that you couldn't "sell" something for the same value you "buy" it for, that'd be a step in the right direction. But then the literal concept of "equivalency" is gone, so does it even fit with the mod if they do that?




What I don't like is that EE just lets you willy nilly do whatever. Turn all your stacks of Iron into stacks of Diamonds? Go ahead. Whoops, needed some of that Iron? Okay, you can turn Diamonds back to Iron at the same rate.

I like that GT requires more planning and careful consideration. Okay so you need some Diamonds, but do you really want to centrifuge those Blaze Powders to get it? Oh wait you can use Netherrack dust instead, but it requires a lot of it and is more expensive power-wise.

I guess the main thing I don't like about EE is that it just lets you shift your items around to whatever you want, and back again. Iron to Diamonds, Diamonds to Iron, Iron to Copper, Diamonds to Gold, whatever. Where as when you do something with GT, it isn't always reversible.




And yes, I know I say Diamonds a lot. You all kind of missed what I said in my first post I guess. I said that I say the words Diamonds and Cobblestone a lot. Diamonds is really just meant to be anything expensive, and Cobblestone is what it is, something cheap. So while I don't always mean doing things using Diamonds of Cobblestone, I mean anything expensive or cheap. I guess they're kind of placeholder words for me. Diamonds means "Insert whatever expensive thing you like here" and Cobblestone means "Insert whatever cheap thing you want to get rid of here".