GregTech Debate Thread

[SeniLiX]

Got to say I love IC, but hate how easy it is on it's own.

To answer your question. Yes, I do use it. I currently use both IC and Factorization. My ultimate goal is a legit fusion reactor.
I do have a macerator, currently using a mix of "overworld lava" pumped from a large lake underground and Methane in a regular generator, crafted from Bauxite dust and coal dust.

I love how you no longer reach the end of IC in only a few hours of play.

 

[Enigmius1]

I am one of those, few?, who thinks Gregtech vastly improves the pack as a whole.
It does exactly what it's supposed to do, it expands the tech tree in IC 2 by a great deal, making it harder to obtain your next machine.

The idea of the mod is not to remove stuff from IC2 it only changes the means to obtain them.

• You may need diamonds for a Macerator, so what? That doesn't mean a furnace won't work anymore to cook up raw ores. Who says you just have to get double ores right away because a mod has that feature.

• One other thing I see people whining about is the need for steel in a drill. The drill is one of the items considered endgame, why? Because once you have it, you won't ever make a new one (unless you die) If the GT author simply upped the costs to make it, so be it, but incorporating another mod from the same "pack" is a true genius solution.

• Lastly I see people complain about solar panels. What happens once you got enough "free" power? Why should you make a Geothermal generator? Why should you make a normal generator? Why should you make a windmill? A Watermill? Even why on EARTH would you even consider making a nuclear reactor?! GT improves upon this. If you want "free" power you have to actually work for it. I am even looking forward to when the new version of GT is implemented. Especially before they add RP back in. Those RP watermills will just be the "standard" generator otherwise.

So, grab your pickaxe and get to work you lazy bums!

You've inadvertently illustrated the nature of the disagreement, even though you're probably not aware of it.

It's not Feed the IC2. It's not "The IC2 mod pack with a bunch of other mods thrown in just so we can say we've got more than one mod." IC2, to a lot of people (including me), is infrastructure. Nothing more. We gather the materials and build the machines and power them and then we get on with the really interesting stuff. If I want a vanilla MC experience of grind grind grind dig dig dig chop chop chop dig dig dig all the time, I'll play vanilla MC. Someone earlier asked why even play FTB if we don't want to mine all the time. Because it's FTB, not vanilla MC, and the fact that it's a mod pack expanding on vanilla MC brings with it the promise of a gaming experience where we DON'T have to mine all the time.

So when I look at the things I like to do, and then I look at a mod pack that basically says it's going to cost me 3-4 times the materials to get the infrastructure in place and then it's going to cost 4-16 times the power to keep it running and 4 times bloody longer for the machines to actually do their job, I say pffffffft. That's not challenge. It wasn't a challenge to dig up the mats for a 'vanilla' electric drill...quadrupling the time requirement doesn't suddenly make it 'harder'.

See what I'm saying? For some people, increasing time spent and repetition is where the challenge is increased. For others, designing, planning, and executing complex builds is where the challenge is found, and you can't bloody well do that if you're spending all of your damn time feeding machines to satisfy the ridiculous requirements and restrictions of GregTech.

 

[makeshiftwings]

Got to say I love IC, but hate how easy it is on it's own.

To answer your question. Yes, I do use it. I currently use both IC and Factorization. My ultimate goal is a legit fusion reactor.
I do have a macerator, currently using a mix of "overworld lava" pumped from a large lake underground and Methane in a regular generator, crafted from Bauxite dust and coal dust.

I love how you no longer reach the end of IC in only a few hours of play.

Why would you spend diamonds on a macerator though when you could make an Induction Smelter that costs less? Or a Pulverizer/Smelter combo that costs less AND gives you bonus ores?

 

[ICountFrom0]

Why would you spend diamonds on a macerator though when you could make an Induction Smelter that costs less? Or a Pulverizer/Smelter combo that costs less AND gives you bonus ores?

Because GC sabotauges recipies to require you to use it, even when you don't want to use it. See my posts about tin blocks, other metal blocks in general, and notice where GT only metals get added.

 

[makeshiftwings]

Because GC sabotauges recipies to require you to use it, even when you don't want to use it. See my posts about tin blocks, other metal blocks in general, and notice where GT only metals get added.

Ah, well, if he IS doing that on purpose, then I think it's doubly stupid to include it in a mod pack that's trying to combine a bunch of different mods into something cohesive.

 

[Narcisism]

You've inadvertently illustrated the nature of the disagreement, even though you're probably not aware of it.

It's not Feed the IC2. It's not "The IC2 mod pack with a bunch of other mods thrown in just so we can say we've got more than one mod." IC2, to a lot of people (including me), is infrastructure. Nothing more. We gather the materials and build the machines and power them and then we get on with the really interesting stuff. If I want a vanilla MC experience of grind grind grind dig dig dig chop chop chop dig dig dig all the time, I'll play vanilla MC. Someone earlier asked why even play FTB if we don't want to mine all the time. Because it's FTB, not vanilla MC, and the fact that it's a mod pack expanding on vanilla MC brings with it the promise of a gaming experience where we DON'T have to mine all the time.

So when I look at the things I like to do, and then I look at a mod pack that basically says it's going to cost me 3-4 times the materials to get the infrastructure in place and then it's going to cost 4-16 times the power to keep it running and 4 times bloody longer for the machines to actually do their job, I say pffffffft. That's not challenge. It wasn't a challenge to dig up the mats for a 'vanilla' electric drill...quadrupling the time requirement doesn't suddenly make it 'harder'.

See what I'm saying? For some people, increasing time spent and repetition is where the challenge is increased. For others, designing, planning, and executing complex builds is where the challenge is found, and you can't bloody well do that if you're spending all of your damn time feeding machines to satisfy the ridiculous requirements and restrictions of GregTech.

This sums up my argument very nicely. It's not that GregTech is even harder. It's just more tedious. GT's new stuff adds a new "tier" to IC2, but changing the recipes of existing items just makes me have to play "vanilla" for longer. Like Enigmius said, it's not harder to get the steel for the drill. It just takes more time, and thus, is tedious. Ask any player of progression-based gaming and they'll tell you that the more time you spend waiting or doing the same thing over and over, the less time you spend doing new content that you haven't seen. Challenge is increased by adding new obstacles, not making you do the old ones over and over.

Personally, I like some of GregTech's stuff, but if I had to vote "Yes" or "No" to having it in the pack, I would probably say no based on this. However, if "add GregTech, but the default config gets rid of the changes to existing items," was an option....

But really, GregTech seems like one of those items that changes so many things that it should be optional. All the other mods in the pack that do anything with existing mods don't change anything about them. They just add stuff to them. Except GregTech. It's a cool mod, but it kinda sticks out that way, and not in a way that seems to be attracting any good attention. I'd say it should be left out, or perhaps given as an option that's disabled by default. Or maybe just have it add its new items without changing the existing items. That would be best, I think.

 

[ICountFrom0]

Ah, well, if he IS doing that on purpose, then I think it's doubly stupid to include it in a mod pack that's trying to combine a bunch of different mods into something cohesive.

Sadly some people think, "Have to go make an ic2 compressor to make diamond shards for factorization dark iron" is cohesive.

 

[noah_wolfe]

I guess I would like to know the point of using the GregTech nerfs in a modpack with so many alternatives: do people who like the GT nerfs actually plan on building all those expensive IC machines, or do they just plan on using TE for everything instead? If you like the solar panel nerf, do you actually plan to build solar panels at all, or do you just plan on switching to infinite lava? If you like the macerator nerf, are you actually going to build a macerator with that recipe, or are you just going to use one of the other dozen machines that double ores? If the only point of the recipe nerf is to make it expensive enough that everyone will use an alternative machine instead, then it seems silly to even include the IC machine at all.

Why is this an either/or situation, particularly when the two systems are on separate power grids? Look, I love TE for a number of reasons and it is one of my favorite mods. And while it doubles ore it is not nearly as fast as an overclocked rotary macerator / induction furnace combo. There comes a point where either project scale eclipses your current setup, or you desire something from another mod. A pulverizer is not going to put me in a grav suit. So why limit yourself to the use of one or the other?

Even having switched ore processing to maceration (about when I stared having a full MFSU and could afford to overclock) I still use my TE workshop extensively (liquid redstone, conduits, cells, accumulators, xposers, etc.) My original SSP map went from TE steam / forestry biogas, to crucible / magma engine + geotherms, and presently has 2 full sized steam boilers and a couple of advanced solars contributing to each side of the power grid (and a tank full of unused biofuel). I'm spinning Deuterium and Tritium to prep for a pair of Fusion reactors while I mine the universe for iridium with 10MJ/t quarries that dock with redstone cells. This whole experience without the beauty of RP or TC. My sorting OCD fixed by barrels and routers. My mad genetic scientist fix through bees which provide infinite materials. A robot that shears my sheep and could probably repair the national debt if I could code lua worth a damn. And the list of potentially "OP" things that GT doesn't touch goes on. What it does touch is IC progression, both for its own balance and the "too easy" nature of the toys that directly impact the avatar, which is a distinction from standard world blocks. Something like a quantum suit should be an effort (in order to provide greater satisfaction in the achievement), not something you should necessarily be able to make with 60 chickens in a tank and a solar panel.

At any rate, the entire progression thus far has not felt as out-of-whack as people are making it out to be (in a beta pack with a ton of moving parts, nonetheless). I wanted a drill, I went to the Nether and got brick. I wanted a macerator, I ponied up some diamonds - which were honestly easier to supply than the initial gold for TE when the map was new. This is kind of child's play compared to where GT is heading anyhow, so if you don't enjoy it now because you feel it is either difficult or tedious, that probably won't change. I do agree with the complaint about the ore dictionary, but deal with it because I'm progressing both trees and have a full workshop of gadgets.

What bugs a lot of folks about this debate is the fact that the mod in question is one-click disable - never mind configurable - and doesn't warrant this much drama. If the launcher had a way to generalize difficulty (Easy, Normal, Hard, Oof) and tweaked the mod configs accordingly, a ton of these complaints would melt away, which says more about end user complacency than anything. It would be equally as ridiculous if those who liked the mod came here to complain that it wasn't on by default with the same frequency were the situation reversed .. which they wouldn't. They would just turn it on and play Minecraft. I realize this is probably a logical argument to disable it, but it somehow doesn't jive with the "everything on by default, remove what you wish" nature of what will become the Ultimate Pack at some point.

 

[makeshiftwings]

There's this weird waffling between "It's good because it makes everything really hard" and "Actually it doesn't make anything hard, it's all so easy" that I see with pretty much everyone who roots for tedious things in video games. Either changing the macerator recipe to require diamonds increases the challenge and makes it hard, OR it doesn't actually have any effect because diamonds are so easy to get in which case the change is pointless. You can't argue that GT is so easy that anyone who complains is a pansy while simultaneously arguing that it's a good mod because it makes things really hard.

I think it's fine to make the Quantum Suit more complicated to make (thought it IS complicated already for most newer players; it's only quick to people who already know a lot about IC and can plan things out in advance). Mass Fabricator can be more tedious too; most people are fine with that. Most people only have a problem with making the early and mid-tier things like solar panels, macerators, and regular drill require so many random hoops to jump through.

It would be equally as ridiculous if those who liked the mod came here to complain that it wasn't on by default with the same frequency were the situation reversed .. which they wouldn't. They would just turn it on and play Minecraft. I realize this is probably a logical argument to disable it, but it somehow doesn't jive with the "everything on by default, remove what you wish" nature of what will become the Ultimate Pack at some point.

That's exactly my point though. The whole thing I like about a mod pack is that it makes it easy for noobs and busy friends to jump on a server and play. The people who enjoy these evershifting GT tweaks to other mods' recipes are the people who enjoy poring over wikis and spending an hour in NEI looking at every block ID while reading forum posts on how to most efficiently generate 5 million EU/tick. Those people are probably pros at adding mods and tweaking config files; they should be the ones modifying the defaults.

Edit: To put this in some perspective, my old tekkit server had some new players who were somewhat baffled by how redstone worked, why there were five different incompatible power systems, which end of the batbox did what, why there were so many pipes, etc. It took a long time for one of them to get a solar panel and batbox with a simple macerator set up. They were all really smart people; they were just also busy people who were new to mods and hadn't read any of the wikis yet. If I told one of them, "Hey remember how you had to read that wiki page to figure out how to get that macerator thing to work? Well NOW, we changed it so you have to do a totally different thing with a lot more steps, and go to a different wiki to figure out how! Isn't that FUN?!"... well, they probably wouldn't be joining the server. Following a long and winding series of steps from a wiki isn't fun for everyone. Especially people with only one monitor and not much time for minecraft.

 

[Mikey_R]

I don't know why people keep bringing up the more expensive macerator recipe, it's off by default.

There is a reason Gregtech added an extensive config, it's so that you can customise it how you want, and chances are Slowpoke will customise it to suit his map. He obviously wants it in the map, otherwise it wouldn't be in the pack in the first place.

 

[Pinkishu]

I like GregTech. Why use the expensive macerator? Cause a rotary one is quicker than your pulverizer~
Coal dust too, gives you handy stuff~ cannot be made in Pulverizers last i've seen
Also Industrial Grinders ftw!

Solars? yeah i build them, they're not that bad and esp. quite nice with advanced solars mod. Switching to lava? in the beginning, ya, but I mostly did that anyway till I had the resources for solars.´

@makeshiftwings: I don't see why you'd have to look into NEI and look at every block ID lol, you have a strange concept there.
Incompatible power systems? Well cause theres different types of power. Why are there different electrical outlets with different voltages around the globe? Why are theres x incompatible standards for xyz?
Also most of these mods are integrating conversion methods nowadays.

And you tekkit server, well define fun. Fun is about challenges and solving problems for many - esp. tech mod users. Making a macerator is a problem you solve. Step-by-step. You don't even need a wiki, NEI does a great job imo.
Also why would they need a wiki? You can show them step-by-step etc or teach them and such ~.~ thats half the point of SMP


See, GT adds progression, that may be unfamiliar to vanilla players, since theres no progression cause you have the highest tier tools (diamonds) within 30 minutes. That may be unfamiliar to some old IC2 players since they have quantum suit at day 3. I used IC2 in the past and other mods and I say: I like it, it always lacked progression. Something to do aside from getting everything for free~


And still noting: Most of you are judging GT by an older version of it.


@ICountFrom0:
Well did you actually go ask him if it is intentional? I don't see much reason he would add the items from other mods to be able to be used in IC2 recipes but then not let you compress other tin. But eh.

 

[Greedseed]

Oke lets try put a end to this thread gooing round round round and round.
There have bin multiple threads like this so please stop throwing the same arguements at eachoder time and time again.
If you have something really vallid to add feel free but dont comment with the same statement every time.

My oppinion. I personally like GT, this wont mean that everyone is liking GT.
At the end it is a personal choice to use it or to hate it. If you really dispice GT, just take it out of your mods and dont play it.
If you like it, leave it in and enjoy it.
If you want the hardcore GT, change the config to be hardcore, and enjoy it.

GT is not to be played with only IC2 installed! enjoy it with other mods. If you cannot find how to use those. Play the IC2 mod alone.

At the end, all mods are mady be enjoy! everyone has a different taste? If you are gone start compairing oppinions on this, then you are just starting flame wars.

 

[b0bst3r]

Not sure if Greedseed meant to lock this or not but my quick two pennys worth.

For too long players have had it VERY VERY easy with EE2 and being able to magic up items from sunlight/thin air.

I for one am happy and glad to see gregtech and having something to work towards that isn't going to take me 10 mins in a condenser.

Bring it on, make it harder, extend the playability of MC/Mods..... Now that I am 110% behind and so should all of you be.

 

[FMan_0000]

Oke lets try put a end to this thread gooing round round round and round.
There have bin multiple threads like this so please stop throwing the same arguements at eachoder time and time again.
If you have something really vallid to add feel free but dont comment with the same statement every time.

My oppinion. I personally like GT, this wont mean that everyone is liking GT.
At the end it is a personal choice to use it or to hate it. If you really dispice GT, just take it out of your mods and dont play it.
If you like it, leave it in and enjoy it.
If you want the hardcore GT, change the config to be hardcore, and enjoy it.

GT is not to be played with only IC2 installed! enjoy it with other mods. If you cannot find how to use those. Play the IC2 mod alone.

At the end, all mods are mady be enjoy! everyone has a different taste? If you are gone start compairing oppinions on this, then you are just starting flame wars.

I agree, Gregtech is awesome. Also, that harder reciepes makes game more balanced and harder, so there are less newbies running with nukes and stacks of diamonds on servers.

 

[ICountFrom0]

So I see, mostly, those saying that it improves things, providing no evidence. That what can be asserted with no evidence, can be dismissed with no evidence.

Once again I point out that, "if you don't like it, remove it" is nothing more then abject surrender and the suggestion from your own side that it be removed, completely.

The one repeating statement is "On servers" so how about a GT server pack?

I asked before, was "Steve's carts overpowered?" I asked that because that's one of the things that GT nerfs.

How about I ask a more important question, we keep seeing settings changes, from versions to versions in how it is balanced, so let me ask, "Is it possible to tame GT so that it still improves the game with more function without causing collateral damage to other mods?"

Because, lets face it, if the post about how you use GT starts with using everything BUT GT until you are left with no other choice...

Look, I'm just asking for one unarguable thing that it does that makes the changes it makes to the game worthwhile for the single player community. That can't be too hard to find, can it?

 

[FMan_0000]

So I see, mostly, those saying that it improves things, providing no evidence. That what can be asserted with no evidence, can be dismissed with no evidence.

Once again I point out that, "if you don't like it, remove it" is nothing more then abject surrender and the suggestion from your own side that it be removed, completely.

The one repeating statement is "On servers" so how about a GT server pack?

I asked before, was "Steve's carts overpowered?" I asked that because that's one of the things that GT nerfs.

How about I ask a more important question, we keep seeing settings changes, from versions to versions in how it is balanced, so let me ask, "Is it possible to tame GT so that it still improves the game with more function without causing collateral damage to other mods?"

Because, lets face it, if the post about how you use GT starts with using everything BUT GT until you are left with no other choice...

Look, I'm just asking for one unarguable thing that it does that makes the changes it makes to the game worthwhile for the single player community. That can't be too hard to find, can it?

Does it nerf Steve's carts ?
They're not overpowered.

 

[Pinkishu]

@ICountFrom0: so provide evidence that it _hurts_ other mods then?

"evidence" eh, it balances IC2, adds progression and new nice blocks. not sure what can be evidence or not about that, so lets say railcraft rebalances vanilla minecarts, adds progression to tracks (and many diff tracks) and new nice blocks, now some may complain they cannot craft vanilla tracks with the vanilla recipe~

 

[FMan_0000]

@ICountFrom0: so provide evidence that it _hurts_ other mods then?

"evidence" eh, it balances IC2, adds progression and new nice blocks. not sure what can be evidence or not about that, so lets say railcraft rebalances vanilla minecarts, adds progression to tracks (and many diff tracks) and new nice blocks, now some may complain they cannot craft vanilla tracks with the vanilla recipe~

I know it's a bit "off-topic" but railcraft is indeed awesome. I never cared about the rolling machine. And railcraft was the only way for me to carry EU without loss from cables, or with greg-tech "Hyper" expensive conductorwire.

 

[Pinkishu]

Well ya I like GregTech and RailCraft just had to pull some example of antoher mod in the pack which I like too

 

[urmamasllama]

That's exactly my point though. The whole thing I like about a mod pack is that it makes it easy for noobs and busy friends to jump on a server and play. The people who enjoy these evershifting GT tweaks to other mods' recipes are the people who enjoy poring over wikis and spending an hour in NEI looking at every block ID while reading forum posts on how to most efficiently generate 5 million EU/tick. Those people are probably pros at adding mods and tweaking config files; they should be the ones modifying the defaults.

your post really struck home because i am that guy and i love gregtech

i feel like gregtech is almost the balancing glue to the rest of the mods because if it were for GT i would just use nothing but IC and RP and not touch the other mods till i already had everything because gregtech slowed down my progression and no rp available i started playing the others mods and realized that it basically made IC2 the final tech tree of the mod you go through all this other stuff so that you can move up in IC i understand where others are coming from though and am starting to think that GT might be best starting in easy mode for the people who want a harder version i'd like to see a reccomended GT config posted up on these forums that makes it harder i know how to config it but the way GT is set up now is not using all the recipes and with good reason with balance in mind toward the other mods