Greg Tech opinion discussions go here

[Jadedcat]

Due to current situations we are having too many threads created about Greg Tech.

In the interests of allowing REASONABLE discussion, we are creating this thread and will monitor it for input.

That said:

--All other threads about GregTech will be locked and/or deleted
-- This does not include support and or information threads just ranting ones.
--Follow the rules http://forum.feed-the-beast.com/pages/rules/
--Failure to follow the rules may result in 24/hr timeouts from the forums.

STAY ON TOPIC

If you love GregTech or hate it don't care have your rants on either side here and do not overflow into the rest of the forums.



Again we will be watching this thread. Behave and have a polite discussion of opposing viewpoints.

 

[Wyld]

Some will wish to post popcorn.gif and thisisgunnabefun.gif and the like. Don't.

Please. Keep it constructive, informative, and accurate.

In the immortal words of Porkins, stay on target.

 

[tehBlobLord]

Well, I can already tell that this thread won't end well...

I'll kick it off with my short opinion on what I understand about the GT VS TC thing, for people who don't know what it's about.

EDIT: Just to clarify, this is what I've understood from the situation. I might be completely wrong, and if I am, feel free to tell me so that I can put my facts in order.

1) Greg nerfs wood. He makes it so that logs only give you two planks. This is changeable in configs, but it's pretty odd. It affects basically every mod and vanilla because of how the tech trees are laid out, and it doesn't make the game hard, it just requires you to cut down twice as many trees. I don't agree with this change because it basically breaks the balance of every mod in FTB.

2) Mdyo decides to un-nerf wood. Bearing in mind that he's basically doing what Greg did to every other mod, but it's a de-nerf not a nerf. It was childish, but justified. I don't know enough about how much communication goes on between them to comment on this more.

3) Greg decides to make his mod CRASH YOUR GAME if it detects Tinker's Contruct installed.

This is... ridiculous.
Not only are his actions bordering on malware, distributing software specifically designed to cause crashes, I consider it an abuse of trust.
Personally, if Greg wants us to choose between TC and GT, I'm going for Tinker's.
Up until now I've been a defender of GT ("they have configs", "I like the content, not the nerfs") but I'm completely shocked that he would be this childish. It's a sort of escalation that should never have happened, and it's gotten out of hand.

So there you have my point of view. I'm personally not going to be using GT any more until these issues are adressed, because I get the feeling Greg is just trying to see how far he can go before we've had enough.
Feel free to disagree with me though.

 

[egor66]

Could we have the facts then from the FTB staff as they stand atm this may stop a lot of the he said she said replies ?

 

[Jadedcat]

Could we have the facts then from the FTB staff as they stand atm this may stop a lot of the he said she said replies ?

If a public response comes from a member of the FTB staff it will come from Slowpoke. None of us will be making public declarations on behalf of FTB. Feel free to go read the gregtech forums etc.

 

[Fuzzlewhumper]

Was there ever an apology from him for that?

 

[Popparay]

Well, I can already tell that this thread won't end well...

I'll kick it off with my short opinion on what I understand about the GT VS TC thing, for people who don't know what it's about.

1) Greg nerfs wood. He makes it so that logs only give you two planks. This is changeable in configs, but it's pretty odd. It affects basically every mod and vanilla because of how the tech trees are laid out, and it doesn't make the game hard, it just requires you to cut down twice as many trees. I don't agree with this change because it basically breaks the balance of every mod in FTB.

2) Mdyo decides to un-nerf wood. Bearing in mind that he's basically doing what Greg did to every other mod, but it's a de-nerf not a nerf. It was childish, but justified. I don't know enough about how much communication goes on between them to comment on this more.

3) Greg decides to make his mod CRASH YOUR GAME if it detects Tinker's Contruct installed.

This is... ridiculous.
Not only are his actions bordering on malware, distributing software specifically designed to cause crashes, I consider it an abuse of trust.
Personally, if Greg wants us to choose between TC and GT, I'm going for Tinker's.
Up until now I've been a defender of GT ("they have configs", "I like the content, not the nerfs") but I'm completely shocked that he would be this childish. It's a sort of escalation that should never have happened, and it's gotten out of hand.

So there you have my point of view. I'm personally not going to be using GT any more until these issues are adressed, because I get the feeling Greg is just trying to see how far he can go before we've had enough.
Feel free to disagree with me though.

I utterly agree with all of this.

Yes maybe Mdyo should have added an option to turn off the de-nerf to Gregs Nerf in configs so those who want to cut down 10000000000 trees can but what Greg did was shameful and in my opinion completely disrespectful to all those who use his mod. He let his ego dictate his actions and decided his mod is more important than anyone elses mod.

I will be boycotting his mod and I believe the only action the FTB team can take is remove GT from the packs. This sort of behaviour can not be advocated.

 

[Hoho]

Was there ever an apology from him for that?

Not really. Greg just wanted to make enough noise to get the situation resolved faster than it took to solve the fortunesmelting one and as mdyio refused to have a discussion with him (again) he tried other, not so friendly, means.

 

[egor66]

okay tnx Jaded lot of us have been on the ic2 forums watching this all unfold, & yep I am sure most of us understand the waiting for th boss to comment is not a bad idea.

& Wyld in case I dont get a chance to say so again tnx for your work on this & all things FTB.[DOUBLEPOST=1374151784][/DOUBLEPOST]

Not really. Greg just wanted to make enough noise to get the situation resolved faster than it took to solve the fortunesmelting one and as mdyio refused to have a discussion with him (again) he tried other, not so friendly, means.

Again we have the he sad she said, there are no logs to back up any of this.

 

[mDiyo]

Hello everyone! I'd like to tell the tale from my side of the story. Whether that's good or bad or it's all complete nonsense is for you to decide.

Early on in the development of TConstruct I made a bunch of modifiers for tools. One of these was the auto-smelt modifier. It seemed quite useless in the face of the Smeltery and other modifiers, so I added a bit of code to make it interact with Fortune. A tool with Fortune III and Auto-Smelt will give you 1-4 materials. Say... iron ingots. Fast-forward a couple months and GregTech adds a bunch of furnace recipes to reverse items.

The exploit should be fairly obvious. Fortune-smelt an iron block and you'll get back 9-36 iron ingots. Rinse and repeat. There was some indirect talk about the interaction though a messenger, but Greg basically called it a bug and thought it should only happen with pickaxes on ores. The modifier is supposed to work on all tools - charcoal and bricks included.

Some amount of time passed. A month, perhaps two. At this point I was getting 3-4 reports a day about people "discovering" the exploit. I added a message to TConstruct about disabling reverse smelting in GregTech. Greg added a full-screen rant about things. A config setting was added to disable the interaction on my end, Greg altered the message on his end, everything seems fine for awhile.

That's the past. It's context for the recent spat, and is a previous incident.

One of the recent updates to GregTech modified vanilla in... undesirable ways. Wood and stone tools have very, very low durability compared to before. Iron tools require hammers and files to make, and those require refined iron. Vanilla wood crafting from logs into planks gives 2 instead of 4, with the caveat that you can get the original 4 with a new saw. I added some new recipes to the game to restore the wood crafting. Greg goes and... crashes the game. Purposefully, with full knowledge, crashes the game.

The crash happened when a recipe was detected outside his config. The wood nerf was forced ON while TConstruct was installed, so the crash was guaranteed to happen.

I removed the wood recipes from TConstruct and told Greg to remove his crashing code, as well as all of the other code he had regarding TConstruct. He also had something called the "Pumpkin of Shame" that would constantly replace my helmet item, breaking the game for me personally with his mod installed. Everything regarding the crash has been undone, I'm pretty sure, but... well.

I do apologize for any trouble I've caused. TConstruct and GregTech do not play well together, and I would never recommend them in the same pack. I would rather people play the game however they like though, and I hope people can enjoy themselves in the future.

 

[Wyld]

Some points to clarify on the esteemed BlobLord:

• The crash was not, according to Greg, focused on TConstruct. It was based on anything that altered his recipe changes. His point of view was, there are configs for his changes. Therefore, with this code, if another mod changes his changes, crash.
• Greg removed this crash, once mDiyo posted on his IC2 thread.
• Greg's changes influence the conceptual planning of all mods. All mods would incorporate planning on how fast, and what is required, to climb their own tech tree or mod specific interaction. This is not limited to a wood nerf. Stone and wood tools durability is now halved.
• Greg deemed that a crash was *required*, coded it himself, and placed the blame/requirement on another modder.
• Greg has claimed that all these changes are config based. I have heard that this also touches on a 111 bronze return, but I have not seen this yet.

These are points I have read, experienced, and/or discussed.

Nerfs and play style aside, I think the key point is resides with Greg's decision that a crash was an option. My specific concern is a mod author, through their mod, has decided to infringe on the gaming experience of the players by crashing the game. By choice.

 

[Hoho]

Early on in the development of TConstruct I made a bunch of modifiers for tools. One of these was the auto-smelt modifier. It seemed quite useless in the face of the Smeltery and other modifiers, so I added a bit of code to make it interact with Fortune. A tool with Fortune III and Auto-Smelt will give you 1-4 materials. Say... iron ingots. Fast-forward a couple months and GregTech adds a bunch of furnace recipes to reverse items.

I can look up the links again but greg had storage block smelting on first half of January this year at latest, probably even much earlier. You added fortunesmelting class around mid-May. Is this correct?

He also had something called the "Pumpkin of Shame" that would constantly replace my helmet item, breaking the game for me personally with his mod installed.

This was purely a visual thing. Assuming you don't play in 3'rd person I'm not sure how it broke the game. Or did it actually added the pumpin-overlay?

 

[Cheeseless]

Thanks mDiyo for your honest explanation. I want to hear Greg's side on this since he will undoubtedly have a different story to tell. However you are clearly blameless, since your code does not cause any harm. The only thing I saw that might have caused Greg to be offended is your "new recipes to the game to restore the wood crafting". However, as you said, the mods don't play well together, so he should accept that other modders might want to alter the changes he made. After all, isn't that the purpose of GregTech to begin with?

 

[Wyld]

This was purely a visual thing. Assuming you don't play in 3'rd person I'm not sure how it broke the game. Or did it actually added the pumpin-overlay?

I am interested to see if this alters things like iChuins death counter, and other server sided information/processing.

End of the day, it is a malicious and purile act.

 

[Chrissy]

I'm looking over all these issues with gregtech,
And i'm getting a more and more reinforced verdict on the subject


For an advanced coder, Gregorious T is EXTREMELY immature correlating of course to many issues, that man is part of the reason i am striving to become a better person

Disregarding user criticisms,
"Fighting" with other modders (see TC incident)
Causing his mod to just feature a lot of stalling for time (See all GT's nerfs)
Nerfing OTHER mods without consent from anyone
I mean that's plenty of reason right there unless someone can think of anything i can tack on furthermore, Another thing i'm tired of hearing from GT defenders is:

Dunt play Gwegteks/You kan konfigyer da geregtek, so der ar no nurfs/Nobody's making you play

One thing is i only really play FTB multiplayer, Why? Because i just get bored in SP unless i'm coming off multiplayer to test something
So that makes doing both of those things invalid to deal with it, One is my preferred pack is ultimate, Includes GT, And boy oh boy i'll have one hell of a time finding a server i like that doesn't have GT, Or a deviant configuration. and it's weird, because i hardly hear a call in of legitimate defense for the hell blasted thing,
I mean he adds a few things that are kinda neat if you have a month to spare to put them together, but at the end of the day is spending four times as long getting a macerator then you would normally any more fun?


But that's just my argument, Not trying to piss anyone else

 

[tehBlobLord]

Some points to clarify on the esteemed BlobLord:

• The crash was not, according to Greg, focused on TConstruct. It was based on anything that altered his recipe changes. His point of view was, there are configs for his changes. Therefore, with this code, if another mod changes his changes, crash.
• Greg removed this crash, once mDiyo posted on his IC2 thread.
• Greg's changes influence the conceptual planning of all mods. All mods would incorporate planning on how fast, and what is required, to climb their own tech tree or mod specific interaction. This is not limited to a wood nerf. Stone and wood tools durability is now halved.
• Greg deemed that a crash was *required*, coded it himself, and placed the blame/requirement on another modder.
• Greg has claimed that all these changes are config based. I have heard that this also touches on a 111 bronze return, but I have not seen this yet.

These are points I have read, experienced, and/or discussed.

Nerfs and play style aside, I think the key point is resides with Greg's decision that a crash was an option. My specific concern is a mod author, through their mod, has decided to infringe on the gaming experience of the players by crashing the game. By choice.

Well, like I said, I don't know everything that goes on behind the scenes. But I believe that the code to crash the game was left inside the mod, just disabled (this was discussed at length in the other thread) which, again, I don't agree with.

I wasn't aware of the other nerfs to tools and such, but honestly the more I find out about this whole thing the less respect for Greg I have.

 

[acker]

I was considering playing with GTech on my next world, but after reading all the childish things that the author made I won't do that.

GregTech adds some nice machines and tools. But instead of expanding our possibilities he created a mod that affects all other mods, making the game too hard for some people wanting to have some fun inside modded Minecraft.

As you can see, I do not play with GTech, and I do not want to. There is no such thing as "I want to Minecraft to be real". You can carry TONS of stone on your pocket. You can fall from the tallest heights and you can go sprinting afterwards... And the list goes on.

Every modder should not try to create a realistic mod, but a fun one.

 

[egor66]

Thank you mdiyo for taking the time to explain you views & actions.

Ps some of us do love your mod (what am I on about most of us) & the direction you are taking it keep the faith sir.

 

[Popparay]

Essentially what Greg is saying is all mods should accept his nerfs and/or work with his configs or he will make that mod incompatible with GT. I would love to see all the modders purposely undo the nerfs he does to their mods so he makes them all incompatible to his mod, see how many of his 'fan base' quit GT.

 

[netchip]

I'm supporting Greg in this one.

Greg changes other mods, but his modifications to other mods are part of his mod.

Changing Greg's nerfs, isn't part of mDiyo's Tinker's Construct.

Greg didn't do the right thing when he decided to crash the game. But mDiyo knows exactly how to mess with Greg and get him to respond this way.

Either way, they were both wrong, but it won't keep me from playing GT and TC