FTB Mod Discussion: Greg-Tech

[kenken244]

Maybe you should take some time to step outside your little IC2 based universum where pretty much everything is based on iron and look at other mods. I have a well rounded installation and even with 8 36HP boilers and craptons of AE , BC and TE stuff I have much MUCH more Iron in storage than copper or tin.

Your experiences with your "balanced" mod setup don't apply, since you are not using gregtech. We are talking about Gregtech balance. using gregtech, especially with lava centrifuges, iron is still a lot more precious. And this is with a 50 by 50 plot of forestry multifarms, and 36 alvearys. you also said that if I don't use forestry, than I should not be commenting on its balance, by that logic, since you don't use gregtech, why are you commenting on it's balance?

Stop trying to give arguments on why in your perception the bronze nerf is 'good'; it's not. It's simply stupid to make such a change without any consideration to the mods that actually NEED those recipes just because you want to 'balance' (and don't make me laugh, Gregs idea of balancing is making stuff tedious and then adding his own machines that are better than what's provided by other mods) a mod that DOESN'T NEED the recipes.

Perhaps you should stop being so close-minded? Instead of rejecting any opposing viewpoint out of hand, on something you have no experience with, yet refuse to investigate you should perhaps consider that gregtech is actually better than you think it is? You keep using the same tired arguments that I already have addressed, without coming up with any counterargument; you simply ignore any opposing points.

Perhaps instead of blaming greg, we should look at who created the problem in the first place? Instead of adding a bronze recipe that directly conflicts with one that already existed in one of the most popular mods at the time, Sengir should have stuck to the already existing recipe, he could easily have maintained his desired balance by making his machines casings cost only 4 bronze, thus using the same number of materials. As I have said previously, yet you seemed to ignore, if two mods have directly conflicting recipes for the same material, one or the other is going to be unbalanced.

 

[Dravarden]

Your experiences with your "balanced" mod setup don't apply, since you are not using gregtech.

Apply that to yourself, since you don't use forestry, you haven't tried to get to forestry endgame with the nerf.

 

[kenken244]

And you obviously have not actually read my post.

 

[kenken244]

A cheaper bronze recipe is not a new feature. it just messes up the balance of an already existing mod.

 

[Hyperme]

A cheaper bronze recipe is not a new feature. it just messes up the balance of an already existing mod.

I'm not keyed into the specifics, but until the ore dictionary* was added to Forge, the Bronze recipe didn't matter, since cross mod metal usage was limited. And Bronze is still barely used in IC2, while Forestry wants in for nearly every machine.

Also, by your own 'logic' Greg shouldn't of used Rubies and Sapphires in his mod, since another mod already had them in a way that upset balance.


*Thesaurus would maybe be a better name, since it's the synonym book.

 

[kenken244]

the ore dictionary was around before forestry existed. and yet, you seem to be incredibly upset when gregtech changes a recipe of another mod, yet competently fine if forestry does.

And if you think that using rubies or sapphires upset balance, than you should also think that any mod other than IC2 using copper or tin upsets balance. The oregens of all but one mod are customarily disabled. and incidentally, redpower still does not have a config to disable it's gem generation. Now, let's think of a different situation. Let's say that I make a mod that allows you to make tons of steel using just a little bit of iron, and then railcraft changes things so that if it is installed, this is no longer possible. Who is then "guilty"? or are either of them?

 

[dgdas9]

A cheaper bronze recipe is not a new feature. it just messes up the balance of an already existing mod.

And IC2 is a heavy bronze mod...diputs

 

[Hyperme]

the ore dictionary was around before forestry existed. and yet, you seem to be incredibly upset when gregtech changes a recipe of another mod, yet competently fine if forestry does.

Except Forestry doesn't change any recipes. It adds a separate recipe to make bronze. So yeah. Also, I'm not upset up Gregtech. Sure the mod is (objectively) terribly designed and made by an (subjectively) obnoxious fool with no concept of good game design, but I hardly feel sad about it. I'm more upset about all the people convincing themselves that Minecraft is any harder with Gregtech. Barely so, but hey. Go get all 96 exits in Super Mario World*, then tell me Gregtech is hard.

And if you think that using rubies or sapphires upset balance, than you should also think that any mod other than IC2 using copper or tin upsets balance. The oregens of all but one mod are customarily disabled. and incidentally, redpower still does not have a config to disable it's gem generation. Now, let's think of a different situation. Let's say that I make a mod that allows you to make tons of steel using just a little bit of iron, and then railcraft changes things so that if it is installed, this is no longer possible. Who is then "guilty"? or are either of them?

Actually I was applying your 'logic' to the whole gem thing. Anyhow, if the other mod has a reason for using more steel, then CJ would be overstepping even more than he already is. However, if it's just for the sake of having lots of steel, it's still sleazy(?). Modder made a thing, and now you're acting like you somehow know better.

*Yeah, this isn't that difficult. However, unlike Gregtech, skill is involved, not just waiting. If you can't aquire a copy of Super Mario World, go play some Meat Boy. The free flash version, that is. Or play IWBTG, and laugh at the mere concept of Gregtech's 'difficulty'. Which I have, and I do.

 

[Loufmier]

Let's say that I make a mod that allows you to make tons of steel using just a little bit of iron, and then railcraft changes things so that if it is installed, this is no longer possible. Who is then "guilty"? or are either of them?

i`d pick railcraft. you?

 

[kenken244]

Adding a cheaper and easier alternative is the same as removing a cheaper recipe and adding a more expensive one. either way, the other recipe is nullified. And you say that gregtech is objectively terribly designed, yet you seem to simple ignore any logical arguments to the contrary and simple repeat yourself in the hopes that it will become true.

Your second argument is a classic example of a scarecrow fallacy, especially since you have not displayed how a changed recipe equates to sharing oregen. And I have never claimed that gregtech is more difficult. I have stated repeatedly that it extends the tech tree, and gives you a longer playing time before you just get handed creative mode.

And finally, since when has minecraft EVER HAD the difficulty you are discussing? it is about building and placing blocks. There is no difficulty involved. at worst you spam click on mobs to kill them.

EDIT:
@ Loufmier: Then why aren't you raging at railcraft? because that ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

 

[Dravarden]

Adding a cheaper and easier alternative is the same as removing a cheaper recipe and adding a more expensive one. either way, the other recipe is nullified. And you say that gregtech is objectively terribly designed, yet you seem to simple ignore any logical arguments to the contrary and simple repeat yourself in the hopes that it will become true.

Your second argument is a classic example of a scarecrow fallacy, especially since you have not displayed how a changed recipe equates to sharing oregen. And I have never claimed that gregtech is more difficult. I have stated repeatedly that it extends the tech tree, and gives you a longer playing time before you just get handed creative mode.

And finally, since when has minecraft EVER HAD the difficulty you are discussing? it is about building and placing blocks. There is no difficulty involved. at worst you spam click on mobs to kill them.

EDIT:
@ Loufmier: Then why aren't you raging at railcraft? because that ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

if in minecraft there is no difficulty then how come gregtech ''makes it more difficult''?

0 x 2 is still 0.

 

[dgdas9]

if in minecraft there is no difficulty then how come gregtech ''makes it more difficult''?

0 x 2 is still 0.

Some greg tech logic is not Maths aproved...







Does this make any sense?

 

[Loufmier]

EDIT:
@ Loufmier: Then why aren't you raging at railcraft? because that ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

because i havent played a mod pack where this was a thing. care to share a link on this subject? and i`m pretty sure, that mod that added "cheap" steel has a good steel usage, and meant to be played on its own. anyway, such balance issues should be a concern for people behind mod pack, not certain modders.

 

[Dravarden]

Some greg tech logic is not Maths aproved...







Does this make any sense?

not in gregtech, it doesn't have logic


even flying blocks have more logic than gregtech

 

[Whovian]

if in minecraft there is no difficulty then how come gregtech ''makes it more difficult''?

0 x 2 is still 0.

Is SCB or SMB more difficult than Minecraft? In which case say someone made a mod to make MC as difficult as those. Would that, again, not be any more difficult?

 

[Hyperme]

Adding a cheaper and easier alternative is the same as removing a cheaper recipe and adding a more expensive one. either way, the other recipe is nullified. And you say that gregtech is objectively terribly designed, yet you seem to simple ignore any logical arguments to the contrary and simple repeat yourself in the hopes that it will become true.

Here we go again (again!). However I guess I can improve the argument. Refinement through repetition.

Minecraft has no hard internal time limits. While time is used in the day/night cycle, there are no events linked to time which have any significant gameplay aspect. Additionally, it is perfectly possible to remove the threats related to time, via lighting and fortification. You can even stand still to avoid using hunger. The cumulative effect of this is that time in Minecraft, internally, free and limitless.
Now, many claim that Gregtech 'increases difficult', 'adds balance' and 'extends the tech tree'. The third thing is correct. Yay! For it's flaws, I'll give that. However, in regards to balance and difficulty, the way this is implement is a direct example of bad design. As time is not internally restricted, any time increases have an impact on external resources. Centrifuging, for example, has processes which take five minutes. Internally, that's not really a problem. Hell, providing you aren't bottled-necked, you can do other things. However, there are several points in Gregtech where in order to proceed, you must spend time waiting for some process to be completed. There is a delay. You can filled this time, however, it is still being used. But since internally, time is worthless, Gregtech is now increasing the consumption of an external resource. Linking any form of balance or difficulty to an external resource without reason is bad design. There are plenty of games where some external waiting may be involved. Most of these games, however, either wish to keep a balance to prevent those with excessive time from getting to far ahead, creating an upper limit. Gregtech however, creates an inflated lower limit, far out of scale with both Vanilla Minecraft and IC2. Every game will have a lower external time demand. Such is life. However, these should grow based on complexity and depth. But Gregtech adds little complexity, many bottlenecks, and ties depth to a series of waiting times that outstrip Minecraft's scale. It's an outlier, and not in a good way.

Edit: And incidentally, the long waiting times on Gregtech machines add literally nothing to the game, other than more waiting.

 

[dgdas9]

not in gregtech, it doesn't have logic


even flying blocks have more logic than gregtech

That, it is not true!Gregtech has logic in SOME things...It nerfs SOME stuff that IS OP...

 

[kenken244]

But Gregtech adds little complexity, many bottlenecks

You haven't backed up those claims. Gregtech adds a great deal of complexity through many various processing opprotunities to gain various resources. and as I have said before, yet you seemed to ignore, if you actually PLAYED gregtech, you would know that not a lot of waiting is involved. The recipes that are used for crafting things are very quick, it is just for processing that takes a while. This is to encourage automation, so it is not a simple matter of sticking a few overclockers into a furnace to let it keep up with a quarry. Gregtech machines are meant to be run in parallel, which greatly reduces time required. Thus, it is not balanced against time, but against your resource intake. the time that the machines take is spent actually Playing the Game, not sitting around waiting for things. Honestly, I don't know why you feel you can comment on this when you have never even played with gregtech.

I also note that you once again reference difficulty. As I have said before, Gregtech does not make the game more difficult, nor does it try. It makes the game more challenging. There is a difference. Difficulty is a metric of the skill required to play a game. Minecraft has very little in terms of skill required to succeed. Challenge, on the other hand, is the obstacles you have to overcome, which greg adds many, and each one requires careful thought and consideration.

 

[Vermillion]

And incidentally, the long waiting times on Gregtech machines add literally nothing to the game, other than more waiting.

It takes a wait time of 5 minutes to macerate a stack of iron ore without overclockers with vanilla IC2. Just as the option of adding an overclocker to shorten that time is there for IC2, it's there for GregTech too (Yes, you can put any IC2 upgrade into a GregTech machine). More so in the latest releases, with the addition of heat vents that can be attached to any side of a GT machine for further improvements.
You only have extended wait time until you can get make an overclocker for any IC2 machine, the same to be said of every gregtech machine.

 

[Harvest88]

But those GT machines on OCs are cows when they come to power consumption. Just for an industrial electoylier with 4 OCs will need 32786 eu/t.. A centifuge is more feasible but if you want to speed up power production lines then don't even think about that.. It'll eat 2k eu/t at 4 and you'll not be able to make a net power gain out of "fart gas" for just adding one OC..