Forge and Nova

[VapourDrive]

As long as MinecraftForkage continues to support mods that already have been written for 1.7.10 forge standard I'm fine with this, and think people should support it.
Also folks, keep the hate an name-calling down to... well none of it to be honest. Facts are the way to go (if something needs to be backed up). The only way to move forward is by being kind to one another, regardless of what is deserved. Someone does something that you don't agree with? fine, just don't go blocking them, spreading malice or unnecessarily using horrible obscenities to refer to each other. What sort of worthwhile community does that?

 

[Yusunoha]

As long as MinecraftForkage continues to support mods that already have been written for 1.7.10 forge standard I'm fine with this, and think people should support it.
Also folks, keep the hate an name-calling down to... well none of it to be honest. Facts are the way to go (if something needs to be backed up). The only way to move forward is by being kind to one another, regardless of what is deserved. Someone does something that you don't agree with? fine, just don't go blocking them, spreading malice or unnecessarily using horrible obscenities to refer to each other. What sort of worthwhile community does that?

most of the time the people can stay mature, but there only needs to be 1 person who starts the namecalling and others will soon follow to vent their frustration that they've been suppressing

 

[FyberOptic]

Lex is a very capable coder, he just needs to learn how to control his emotions in public.
screaming and threatening around like that helps no one, it rather only creates more problems.

I keep hearing people say variations of "Lex is a capable coder" or even going as far as "Lex is a great coder", which usually only comes up in discussions of some drama resulting from him throwing a fit about something.

Lex has been inside of this game for years. In all of that time, you would assume that he knows a little bit about everything that Minecraft does, and not only be capable of making competent decisions on what Forge should do/be, but also be capable of implementing them. But with 1.8, I started to see that Lex doesn't really know what we may have thought. In all of these years, for example, he never picked up anything about how rendering works. Not even a little bit, apparently. I not only find this mindblowing, but also rather inexcusable. Yet he's adamantly arguing topics which he literally knows nothing about. I've been in 1.8's rendering for months, before Forge was even released for it, and I knew that what Forge was imposing not only went against what modders need to do, but even went against what Mojang themselves do. It was incredibly frustrating.

But I gave it the benefit of the doubt, and tried to use it. But then when I noticed Forge's extended model system (not written by Lex, mind you, just the only thing he accepted) had a glaring flaw due to multi-threading, and I tried to point this out to Lex, Lex initially didn't think there was a problem because he didn't even know the rendering was multi-threaded now. For heaven's sake, I knew this before I ever even looked into the code, just from what I'd heard said from Mojang and others. And of course, at that point, Lex proceeded to blame me for everything wrong with Forge's rendering, simply because I didn't show up sooner to tell him of the problems, as if it could never be changed now. It was the first and only time I ever went to Forge chat. Also the last time I ever bother with the Github, because immediately after the chat room encounter, he wiped out an issue I posted.

There was a time when I did actually agree with the sentiment of Lex being a good dev, particularly before I ever had any personal encounters. I used to think that a lot of the arguing I heard about was just people with big heads butting. In fact, I used to be the kind of person who would reassure people that the Forge team was all hard at work when new versions of the game came out, to be patient, and be thankful for the work they do at times like that. But once I realized that I was just being naive, and essentially defending inexcusable behavior, I stopped doing that.

Forge needs a team, not an incompetent dictator. I'm hoping Immibis is able to turn this mess around with his fork, because he's proven for years that he actually knows what he's doing, and without acting like a raging lunatic in the process.

 

[Strikingwolf]

I keep hearing people say variations of "Lex is a capable coder" or even going as far as "Lex is a great coder", which usually only comes up in discussions of some drama resulting from him throwing a fit about something.

Lex has been inside of this game for years. In all of that time, you would assume that he knows a little bit about everything that Minecraft does, and not only be capable of making competent decisions on what Forge should do/be, but also be capable of implementing them. But with 1.8, I started to see that Lex doesn't really know what we may have thought. In all of these years, for example, he never picked up anything about how rendering works. Not even a little bit, apparently. I not only find this mindblowing, but also rather inexcusable. Yet he's adamantly arguing topics which he literally knows nothing about. I've been in 1.8's rendering for months, before Forge was even released for it, and I knew that what Forge was imposing not only went against what modders need to do, but even went against what Mojang themselves do. It was incredibly frustrating.

But I gave it the benefit of the doubt, and tried to use it. But then when I noticed Forge's extended model system (not written by Lex, mind you, just the only thing he accepted) had a glaring flaw due to multi-threading, and I tried to point this out to Lex, Lex initially didn't think there was a problem because he didn't even know the rendering was multi-threaded now. For heaven's sake, I knew this before I ever even looked into the code, just from what I'd heard said from Mojang and others. And of course, at that point, Lex proceeded to blame me for everything wrong with Forge's rendering, simply because I didn't show up sooner to tell him of the problems, as if it could never be changed now. It was the first and only time I ever went to Forge chat. Also the last time I ever bother with the Github, because immediately after the chat room encounter, he wiped out an issue I posted.

There was a time when I did actually agree with the sentiment of Lex being a good dev, particularly before I ever had any personal encounters. I used to think that a lot of the arguing I heard about was just people with big heads butting. In fact, I used to be the kind of person who would reassure people that the Forge team was all hard at work when new versions of the game came out, to be patient, and be thankful for the work they do at times like that. But once I realized that I was just being naive, and essentially defending inexcusable behavior, I stopped doing that.

Forge needs a team, not an incompetent dictator. I'm hoping Immibis is able to turn this mess around with his fork, because he's proven for years that he actually knows what he's doing, and without acting like a raging lunatic in the process.

Whatever happens between 1.7 and 1.8 (if we even transition) will be big no doubt. It is our job to make sure whatever happens makes the MMC community better and not worse.

 

[NJM1564]

That's just unreasonable. People make mistakes and that's no excuse to want to strip them of everything they have. Lex has been on the ev team for a while and I thonk someone just needs to knock some sense into him.

There's a difference between mistakes and a pattern of behavior.

 

[Grydian2]

I think its important to realize forge was first created by Elo, Spacetoad (original Buildcraft dev) and cpw as a mod api to allow for multiple mods in minecraft. Lex is not the founder of Forge. Him banning all of Buildcraft devs is way way overboard. I understand he didn't like nova but I think he is letting his personal feelings cause damage to the community. Honestly he should publicly apologize for creating an environment where multiple modders have quit. Thats just my opinion though.

 

[Strikingwolf]

I think its important to realize forge was first created by Elo, Spacetoad (original Buildcraft dev) and cpw as a mod api to allow for multiple mods in minecraft. Lex is not the founder of Forge. Him banning all of Buildcraft devs is way way overboard. I understand he didn't like nova but I think he is letting his personal feelings cause damage to the community. Honestly he should publicly apologize for creating an environment where multiple modders have quit. Thats just my opinion though.

He didn't ban them all, he threatened to

 

[VikeStep]

I think its important to realize forge was first created by Elo, Spacetoad (original Buildcraft dev) and cpw as a mod api to allow for multiple mods in minecraft. Lex is not the founder of Forge. Him banning all of Buildcraft devs is way way overboard. I understand he didn't like nova but I think he is letting his personal feelings cause damage to the community. Honestly he should publicly apologize for creating an environment where multiple modders have quit. Thats just my opinion though.

Also, he only threatened to ban them from his IRC channel. Not from the ability to make minecraft mods

 

[ljfa]

If he had threatened to ban them from making MC mods, 150 modders would have started to make a new API. That would not be good for Lex.

Well there are some movements in this direction. @immibis forked Forge.
Honestly, I wonder what went on in Lex's mind and what he wanted to achieve with all this.

 

[NJM1564]

Well there are some movements in this direction. @immibis forked Forge.
Honestly, I wonder what went on in Lex's mind and what he wanted to achieve with all this.

It was a total power trip.
Is what I want to say. But from his perspective what he was looking at was someone who was planing on mucking and ultimately screwing over all the work he has ever done. That wasn't the intent. Clearly. But that's kinda what he might have thought.
His response however was clearly way way out of bounds.

 

[luacs1998]

(I dusted off my FTB forums account to make this post. You may choke in the dust clouds)

Hi, it's me.

You may remember me as the author of http://luacs1998.wordpress.com/2015/02/01/arigatou-sayonara/.

I will admit that I was writing the post while watching Japanese mecha anime so ya, all the references to Forge being a totalitarian empire should be explained by that fact.

I will say that I have had to work in close quarters with Lex as his former forum admin, and while I respect him a great deal over his technical knowledge and still do even after all that's happened, I think he is unfit to run a community like Forge ALONE.

Most of what I want to say is already in the blog post, though I just want to clarify some things:

1. @keybounce I was the one who banned you. However, that was done on the orders of the Emperor, who instructed me to "find a way to deal with him once and for all". If you can accept "following orders" as an excuse, I offer my most sincere apologies.

2. I have submitted this https://github.com/MinecraftForkage/MinecraftForkage/issues/2 to MinecraftForkage, which is a few thoughts on what I think makes a credible Forge alternative.

3. The expulsion of me and my team was a dickheaded move, but it seems only the ranks were removed. LM is incompetent enough on the forums to not know how to remove board moderators. (if he does, good for him, but do you really want to burn your bridges, Mr. Manos?) So it means minecraftforge.net will remain idiot-free for a certain period of time.

Lex is a dickhead, and that's that.

 

[Pyure]

Can someone give me the layman's summary of what's been going on? Assume I have a barely functional working knowledge of what Forge is and does.

 

[Padfoote]

Can someone give me the layman's summary of what's been going on? Assume I have a barely functional working knowledge of what Forge is and does.

Basically there are disagreements between Lex and some devs on how Forge should handle things and what MC version it should focus on and it's being handled in a childish manner.



Also, guys, can we please keep this civil and avoid name calling? I'd hate to see the mods do a purge on this thread.

 

[ljfa]

Can someone give me the layman's summary of what's been going on? Assume I have a barely functional working knowledge of what Forge is and does.

There's a project called Nova, which can work together with Forge, but for that it needs to alter some inner workings of it. LexManos found out about it by accident, and he doesn't like the internals of Forge being fiddled with.
There were disputes going on and eventually LexManos banned all the Buildcraft people (I'm not sure where, from the forum, from the IRC channel?) and he fired all his moderators from the Forge forums.

 

[goreae]

Can someone give me the layman's summary of what's been going on? Assume I have a barely functional working knowledge of what Forge is and does.

Going into slightly more detail, asie forked forge, implementing a bunch of hacks into the fork that make it work with java 8. This was supposed to be so that they could develop their private project. They felt the need to do this because lex doesn't want to make players require java 8 until mojang does, and they will at some point do that. Asie's intent was just to use the hacked-up forge until forge was on java 8, then dump it. This was so they could actually develop their project without having to wait months for java 8. Lex found out about it and had a hissy fit. His arguments were contradictory, the chat logs quite childish, and the whole ordeal makes the community question his validity.

Besides that, some peeps want to stay on minecraft version 1.7, because what 1.8 adds is simply pointless from a modded perspective, and easily added with a mod. The idea is content for 1.7 would blossom, and tons of content will continue to be created. 1.7 would also be optimised to perfection, giving a smooth gameplay experience for all. If we did advance to 1.8, it would take a long time for mods to even update, much less add new content. The main point in the staying argument is it would take months to get to where we are now, and for what? rabbits, recolored stone, and a temple.

I tried not to inject my own opinion into that, but it probably happened anyways. I just tried to get what I've seen about the situation down.

 

[goreae]

There's a project called Nova, which can work together with Forge, but for that it needs to alter some inner workings of it. LexManos found out about it by accident, and he doesn't like the internals of Forge being fiddled with.
There were disputes going on and eventually LexManos banned all the Buildcraft people (I'm not sure where, from the forum, from the IRC channel?) and he fired all his moderators from the Forge forums.

wait, what? He did? What the actual frak.

 

[ljfa]

wait, what? He did? What the actual frak.

Yup. @luacs1998 was one of the moderators there.

 

[Pyure]

Thx guys. Ppl shouldn't get grief for what they do in forks, not sure what the real issue is here.

 

[FyberOptic]

Going into slightly more detail, asie forked forge, implementing a bunch of hacks into the fork that make it work with java 8.

You're close. NOVA wasn't a Forge fork, it was an entirely separate API which would run on top of Forge (as well as other games eventually). All Asie did was literally change one tiny setting in FML when his API is loaded to ensure Java 8 support. The reaction that followed was nothing short of insanity. What's worse is that Asie predicted that kind of reaction.

Ironically, Lex had less of a reaction when Immibis actually forked Forge, at least to my knowledge. Though I do remember seeing a PR for something which Lex refused to accept for Forge, yet after Immibis pulled that patch into his own fork, Lex then added it to Forge as well. But not before more swearing and complaining.

Besides that, some peeps want to stay on minecraft version 1.7, because what 1.8 adds is simply pointless from a modded perspective, and easily added with a mod.

I can almost guarantee that the community would be full-swing into adopting 1.8 by now if Lex hadn't gone crazy about trying to force models and refusing to re-implement the traditional special renderer registry. This alone scared a lot of devs off, because the amount of work involved in updating increased by an order of magnitude. Migrations to newer versions usually come in waves, and without that initial wave of popular mods taking the plunge, the community tends to just stay where they're at.

There's literally no reason not to have added the traditional rendering back. It's not a technical issue, because the infrastructure is still there, and Mojang uses it themselves. I added it to my own API, and I used ASM to pull off a similar thing in the mods I ported to Forge for 1.8 (something I couldn't do if Lex removed coremods like he threatened). Lex apparently thinks people won't use models if he lets them have it back, which is also ridiculous, because I'm using models in one of my mods despite having the ability to avoid doing so entirely. The one which isn't currently using models will start doing so eventually for certain parts of it, but the focus was to just get it working on 1.8, and to worry about that stuff later. Nothing else about the update to 1.8 is significant enough to have really held the community back this hard. It would have mostly been a bunch of tedious work to adapt to some new methods of doing things.

Besides, who is Lex to say that we have to use models to begin with? That's not his call. He doesn't want people using the tessellator for some crazy reason, even though that's unavoidable for anything else like highlighters or entities. I seriously question whether he even knows what the tessellator is for. Lex complained and complained that modders weren't giving him feedback about Forge, yet he only had himself to blame for the lack of adoption.

I've spent a lot of time working with 1.8, but I have absolutely no problem with the community staying on 1.7.10. It's still the version I play primarily, after all.

I tried not to inject my own opinion into that, but it probably happened anyways.

Everyone's entitled to an opinion. Even Lex. That just doesn't include rage and verbal abuse.

 

[ljfa]

Besides, who is Lex to say that we have to use models to begin with? That's not his call. He doesn't want people using the tessellator for some crazy reason, even though that's unavoidable for anything else like highlighters or entities. I seriously question whether he even knows what the tessellator is for. Lex complained and complained that modders weren't giving him feedback about Forge, yet he only had himself to blame for the lack of adoption.

Some people claim that Lex doesn't know much about rendering at all