Extending Early GamePlay

[VapourDrive]

Ok, I am working on a mod that will extend the early stages of the game for those of us who like slower progression. This is happening from the spawn of the world and I will continue to tinker with things that will affect later and later stages. I want to gate certain aspects of the game behind progression more definitively than it is now.
Important notes:

• I want to keep mod compatibility up, my goal is not to create a standalone overhaul but something that throws extra tiers in without removing much.
• Because of the heavy use of events I will definitely need testers. Anyone who has subscribed to events knows that they can be tricky because they get called so frequently under so many circumstances. This is also because I am foraging into events fairly new to them.

What is currently implemented:

• Trying to break a "heavy/solid" block without a tool is futile, completely. You take damage if you punch "heavy/solid" blocks with a bare hand, and if you hold something that isn't a tool you simply make no progress. This is done through the use of block materials and break events - your break speed is zero under certain circumstances.
• Trying to break other blocks with a bare hand is very slow. Rudimentary tools are going to be important.
  
• Sticks are a big part of early game and are attained via new means - breaking leaves. There is a chance a leaf block (ore dictionaried) will drop a stick.
• Sticks are also rudimentary tools/weapons - not of any specific type but it works faster than a bare hand for breaking things - still not the "heavy/solid" blocks. If you attack a mob with a stick it does about twice as much damage as with your hand and still registers the damage as being from the player (it takes approximately 5 hits for a pig vs 10 bare hand)
• Flint is more important early game as well - most hunter/gather people used flint tools for stuff. Flint also spawns in the world on the surface in little pebble things (terra firma craft style) and you can pick them up by clicking on them.
• Your first tool will be made out of flint, a stick and string. You will need to kill a spider before you can move anything heavier than dirt. I may look at alternative methods of getting string from in the world... plants or some-such.

Future plans

• I am thinking of removing the recipes for wooden and stone tools altogether. You may need to search around in rivers and streams for poor sources of ore and move right on into iron tools. This would require an alternative means of making a furnace as well because you will not be able to harvest stone until you have iron tools. Ideas for this are welcome.

Really all other ideas are welcome as well.

 

[Strikingwolf]

Ok, I am working on a mod that will extend the early stages of the game for those of us who like slower progression. This is happening from the spawn of the world and I will continue to tinker with things that will affect later and later stages. I want to gate certain aspects of the game behind progression more definitively than it is now.
Important notes:

• I want to keep mod compatibility up, my goal is not to create a standalone overhaul but something that throws extra tiers in without removing much.
• Because of the heavy use of events I will definitely need testers. Anyone who has subscribed to events knows that they can be tricky because they get called so frequently under so many circumstances. This is also because I am foraging into events fairly new to them.

What is currently implemented:

• Trying to break a "heavy/solid" block without a tool is futile, completely. You take damage if you punch "heavy/solid" blocks with a bare hand, and if you hold something that isn't a tool you simply make no progress. This is done through the use of block materials and break events - your break speed is zero under certain circumstances.
• Trying to break other blocks with a bare hand is very slow. Rudimentary tools are going to be important.
  
• Sticks are a big part of early game and are attained via new means - breaking leaves. There is a chance a leaf block (ore dictionaried) will drop a stick.
• Sticks are also rudimentary tools/weapons - not of any specific type but it works faster than a bare hand for breaking things - still not the "heavy/solid" blocks. If you attack a mob with a stick it does about twice as much damage as with your hand and still registers the damage as being from the player (it takes approximately 5 hits for a pig vs 10 bare hand)
• Flint is more important early game as well - most hunter/gather people used flint tools for stuff. Flint also spawns in the world on the surface in little pebble things (terra firma craft style) and you can pick them up by clicking on them.
• Your first tool will be made out of flint, a stick and string. You will need to kill a spider before you can move anything heavier than dirt. I may look at alternative methods of getting string from in the world... plants or some-such.

Future plans

• I am thinking of removing the recipes for wooden and stone tools altogether. You may need to search around in rivers and streams for poor sources of ore and move right on into iron tools. This would require an alternative means of making a furnace as well because you will not be able to harvest stone until you have iron tools. Ideas for this are welcome.

Really all other ideas are welcome as well.

Sounds awesome. I won't have time to test extensively, but I like the idea...I wish I had time to do some dev on this...will it be on github so PRs are a thing?

 

[VapourDrive]

Sounds awesome. I won't have time to test extensively, but I like the idea...I wish I had time to do some dev on this...will it be on github so PRs are a thing?

github.... hmm, I run the risk of having my code featured on codecrap but I guess that's going to be a risk I am willing to take . I'll clean some stuff up and get something set up. As a note for said Open-Sourcing, it is mostly because I encourage help and constructive criticism and believe people should know whats going in their game.

Back to game design:
No furnace means no smelting or cooking for a while, I'll add in berries and alternative foodsources in the world that don't need cooking for sure, maybe a way of processing meat other than a furnace.
Torches are also a thing. There will need to be a more natural way of torch making. Couple of pieces of flint = sparker. Stick + cattail = unlit torch, unlit torch + sparker = regular torch and a damaged sparker.
So as to not produce bloat there could be a way to get string from the same cattails.

 

[tedyhere]

Liking this alot, I could base an entire pack around this. Not Ready for Primetime saw it's last World Gen update tonight so I will be looking at this and possibly adding it into my next pack for sure.

 

[Golrith]

Those ideas are basically what I've done in my Omega Dawn pack. I couldn't make a torch until my 2nd day since I "wasted" most of my first day exploring to find a home, and had to end up building a dirt cave to survive the night (in the dark, in cold temperature, with frostbite slowly creeping in).

Really like the restriction on block breaking at start and being able to get sticks from leaves, I had to improvise and make saplings = stick with no stick recipe from planks.

A lot of packs attempt to change/slow down the start period. All those ideas really need to be refined to a single workable solution.

 

[Skyqula]

How I would circumvent this mod: Punch leaves, get stick. Punch tree, get wood. Punch sheep, get bed, skip night. A) Roam world, find village, collect crops. Trade crops, get emeralds, buy iron tools. B) Roam world, find village, make iron golem farm. C) Roam world, find jungle/desert temple, find iron, make iron tools.

Its going to be very difficult to make a mod like this work without changing alot within even just vanilla minecraft. You could go the TiC way and disable all vanilla tools. You could use a loot tweaker to remove all metals/tools from loot chests. There probably is a way to remove iron from iron golems and tools from villager trades. But in the end, there will always be mods that: Add tools/metals to loot chests/villagers, or add loot chests themselves, or mobs with alternative drops. Difficult challange for sure.

 

[VapourDrive]

How I would circumvent this mod: Punch leaves, get stick. Punch tree, get wood. Punch sheep, get bed, skip night. A) Roam world, find village, collect crops. Trade crops, get emeralds, buy iron tools. B) Roam world, find village, make iron golem farm. C) Roam world, find jungle/desert temple, find iron, make iron tools.

Its going to be very difficult to make a mod like this work without changing alot within even just vanilla minecraft. You could go the TiC way and disable all vanilla tools. You could use a loot tweaker to remove all metals/tools from loot chests. There probably is a way to remove iron from iron golems and tools from villager trades. But in the end, there will always be mods that: Add tools/metals to loot chests/villagers, or add loot chests themselves, or mobs with alternative drops. Difficult challange for sure.

Not sure what you mean by circumvent... I am totally OK with people exploring the world to get what they need, in fact that is what I encourage. Because I gate pretty much all early game crafting, people can look out in the world for things they need or they can use the tools I provide. Without a basic tool you won't be able to break anything tougher than dirt so you can't even dream of mining. And I do plan on removing wood tools. You will need iron tools before you can mine stone which will mean an alternative method of getting iron, probably iron nuggets from sifting through stream gravel... Or something similar. I will set up a cleaner outline of progression soon. To be honest I don't really need to change much about vanilla as much as I need to gate the beginning of vanilla functionality behind my custom progression, and this is easy to do with forge's event system.

 

[GreenZombie]

I think this idea is awesome. And is close to a desire I had to get a mod that tried to emulate Stoneage through Bronze Age technologies as a mine craft progression. Weapons and tools would be gated with an eye to historical accuracy - with non sensible cases removed- your early weapon would be flint axes with swords reserved for the discovery of bronze working.

Copper and tin ores would have to be added. With some kind of furnace that mixes molten metals as that is how bronze in made.

Well. That's more of my wish list...

 

[VapourDrive]

New design concept:
Rocks that spawn on the ground like the currently implemented flint that you can pick up. These rocks can be thrown like snowballs at mobs as early game defense and attack or if you are lucky enough to get a sizeable one you can make your first pummel for crushing stone. The stone will drop ruble instead of cobblestone when pummelled and said ruble can be used to make cobblestone with mortar.you would then have a furnace.
@Chris Becke I want to achieve something very similar to that without stepping too heavily on the toes of other mods (tfc and tic come to mind).)

 

[Yulife]

New design concept:
Rocks that spawn on the ground like the currently implemented flint that you can pick up. These rocks can be thrown like snowballs at mobs as early game defense and attack or if you are lucky enough to get a sizeable one you can make your first pummel for crushing stone. The stone will drop ruble instead of cobblestone when pummelled and said ruble can be used to make cobblestone with mortar.you would then have a furnace.
@Chris Becke I want to achieve something very similar to that without stepping too heavily on the toes of other mods (tfc and tic come to mind).)

Reminds me of Terrafirmacraft! Another way I thought of getting rocks would be to search for sheep/spiders to get string which you can make a mesh out of which you can sift dirt in. That would rarely grant you rocks that you can craft in a furnace

 

[GreenZombie]

TiC is a fantastic mod and as unbalanced as [expletive].

I can't see any value in trying to balance against the rapid progression that mod enables. Enough iron to make a bucket and you have ore doubling with some surface digging. Vanilla biomes spawn mossy stone so you don't even need to find a dungeon to get free auto repair. A bit more iron gives you tools made from cobblestone that can dig a 3x3 tunnel faster than any 'proper' iron tool. A single piece of lapis on this will even grow fast enough to apply fortune III to it's operation.

I don't see how a Stoneage progression mod could ever 'compete' with that. It's a step away from instant gratification whereas TiC is towards it.

I am trying to play IC2 in the DW20 pack and all the eu powered things are totally outclassed by simple stone tools made with TiC.

 

[dragonmaster0283]

TiC is a fantastic mod and as unbalanced as [expletive].

I can't see any value in trying to balance against the rapid progression that mod enables. Enough iron to make a bucket and you have ore doubling with some surface digging. Vanilla biomes spawn mossy stone so you don't even need to find a dungeon to get free auto repair. A bit more iron gives you tools made from cobblestone that can dig a 3x3 tunnel faster than any 'proper' iron tool. A single piece of lapis on this will even grow fast enough to apply fortune III to it's operation.

I don't see how a Stoneage progression mod could ever 'compete' with that. It's a step away from instant gratification whereas TiC is towards it.

I am trying to play IC2 in the DW20 pack and all the eu powered things are totally outclassed by simple stone tools made with TiC.

You can actually get a form of progression with TiC. See Iguana Tweaks. Blood and Bones had a pretty good form of progression. You had to boost the pick to mine the next level of stuff. Plus the tools all come with 0 modifiers to start with.

The idea is not a bad concept though. However it also has to be balanced compared to what is extending early progresion and what is making early game tedious.

 

[Golrith]

I've changed the mossy ball recipe from tic to require a regen 3 potion and moss from BoP, or a different recipe within a Pneucraft Pressure chamber (one recipe is for the "magical" path, the other for "tech"). Suddenly I'm now really concerned about my tools, especially since I've got no infrastructure/resources to have a RF charged system and I'm no way ready to craft a "moss" ball. I've also disabled stone as a tool material, you have to start with flint or bone.
Another "balancing" is the tool forge can only be crafted from steel blocks, all other metals have been disabled. You need a good solid steel production system in place to get the next tier of TiC tools.

I wonder if TiC should be 1x by default, with a 2x upgrade to the smeltry that involves metals as part of the crafting recipe. (*random idea alert* like aluminium coated bricks, so much aluminium, so little use). Would push the 2x back a little.

 

[thephoenixlodge]

I wonder if TiC should be 1x by default, with a 2x upgrade to the smeltry that involves metals as part of the crafting recipe. (*random idea alert* like aluminium coated bricks, so much aluminium, so little use). Would push the 2x back a little.

I'm doing something kinda similar with my pack. I'm basically using Mariculture's Crucible furnace as a Tier 1 smeltery, with it providing 1.5x ore processing and being required to produce a smeltery by disabling the grout recipes and making cobble able to be melted in a crucible furnace and cast in mariculture's block and ingot casters.

 

[VapourDrive]

Progression concept:
You need to find clay before you can make iron tools as it will provide your very first source of iron. In the real world clay has a bunch of minerals in it that may include aluminium, iron and various cations so now a clay block will have a chance to drop a lump of mineral instead of a clay ball that will be smelted into an iron nugget. The clay mineral will also be mixed with rubble, water and lime (a rare drop from pummelling stone) to make cobblestone (basically the process of mixing stones with cement). You can then craft a furnace to start smelting up those iron nuggets and make iron tools.

Reminds me of Terrafirmacraft! Another way I thought of getting rocks would be to search for sheep/spiders to get string which you can make a mesh out of which you can sift dirt in. That would rarely grant you rocks that you can craft in a furnace

I like the idea of a sifter/sieve a lot, I want to incorporate a panning mechanic the player could do to get minerals... I'll keep thinking about it for a while but I'm thinking of having a "shiny gravel/sand" block spawn in streams. You click on it with the sieve and it has a chance to give you a nugget of something and then gets turned into regular gravel or sand.

 

[GreenZombie]

I ... Really don't like mods that try to rebalance other mods. If I meet a familiar mod I a mod pack there is a certain expectation that the recipes I know will still work, and having that taken away is very frustrating.

This makes having NEI a necessity which I find unfortunate as NEI is kind of chesty in and of itself. I would far prefer if more packs used craft guide as a recipe search tool. At any rate breaking the familiar recipes is especially frustrating without a wiki explaining the new intended progress tree as every attempt to advance is likely to be met with an unexpected obstacle that can only be bypassed by extensive NEI browsing of things to try and discern the intended alternate route.

Generally mods that modify other mods are a major source of forum drama.

Scenario mod packs have to do this kind of thing but really need to try harder to document their changes up front. An individual mod however I think should stick to assuming it's being used on isolation of other mods.

 

[VapourDrive]

I ... Really don't like mods that try to rebalance other mods. If I meet a familiar mod I a mod pack there is a certain expectation that the recipes I know will still work, and having that taken away is very frustrating.

This makes having NEI a necessity which I find unfortunate as NEI is kind of chesty in and of itself. I would far prefer if more packs used craft guide as a recipe search tool. At any rate breaking the familiar recipes is especially frustrating without a wiki explaining the new intended progress tree as every attempt to advance is likely to be met with an unexpected obstacle that can only be bypassed by extensive NEI browsing of things to try and discern the intended alternate route.

Generally mods that modify other mods are a major source of forum drama.

Scenario mod packs have to do this kind of thing but really need to try harder to document their changes up front. An individual mod however I think should stick to assuming it's being used on isolation of other mods.

I am not modifying any other mods at all. Or even really trying to balance against them.

The only recipes I am doing anything to is stone and wood tools and I am removing them. I will likely add a config option to keep the recipes in but make the tools themselves completely useless. I do know that there will be a bit of a learning curve to playing with this mod but it's very much the same as our first experiences just playing minecraft itself. Plus I am looking into in-game help (tool-tips, chat printouts, waila info etc).

I'm not even really "changing" any progression steps just throwing a couple more steps into the mix.

 

[Zandorum]

I would personally use this but only if I could keep Wooden and Stone Tools in the Config for Completeness sake.
Something I think would be nice is if Leather would be dropped by a Mob on Death it would instead drop Raw Hide, Raw Hide could then be turned into Scraped Hide by crafting a Sword, Flint Tool or Knife with it (Lowers its durability) or if it were to be put into a Pulverizer. Scraped Hide. There would be a new Block called the Tannin Barrel, It has storage for two liquids; The Tannin Barrel can hold Water and the new liquid Tannin. Tannin would be created if the Tannin Barrel had 3 Buckets of water in it and you put a Log of Wood (Any Kind) into its Single input slot, It would then take a second and turn 3000mb of Water into 1000mb of Tannin. If you put Scraped Hide into a Tannin Barrel with atleast 1000mb of Tannin in it it will make 1 Leather, If you have 3000mb of Tannin it will make 2 Leather from 1 Scraped hide and 5000mb for 3 Leather. You can use the Liquid Transposer from Thermal Expansion to make Tannin and put Tannin into Leather as well; The Liquid Transposer.

TL;DR Raw Hide, Scraped Hide, Tanning Hide to Make Leather using Tannin.

 

[Arkandos]

I would not recommend removing wood/stone tools as other mods might still use them in recipes. Instead change their durability to 1 or something

 

[VapourDrive]

Keeping the tool recipes in but changing how the tools makes sense. It breaks some of the immersion but that's just something I'll get over I'll give them a tooltip saying they're just for decoration or something.

I would really like to revamp farming mob drops, one thing to consider is that this would not just change the early game, these drops would continue to effect players throughout the entire game.
What I would consider doing:
Vanilla "farm" mobs drop respective corpses, with looting I would have to add extra "flesh scrap" or something.
You need to take the flesh to either the crafting table or a new cutting table (would allow for multiple output and maybe have a special slot for a knife) and cut up the corpse with a knife.
The flesh gets cleaned from the hide, flesh gets cut into smaller pieces and you would then get more total edible pieces than a vanilla mob kill. Hide would then be dealt with in a way that @Zandorum referred to, possibly with more results than just leather for other uses. Players would need to then have some game progress under their belts before getting use out of animals but would get more benefit once they are at that tier.