Extending Early GamePlay

[Golrith]

Some further ideas.

Since one of the issues is that a wooden pickaxe can get you down to bedrock level (avoiding obsidian/lava enroute) the whole tool progression is pretty "weak".
Instead, what if tier 1 pickaxe can only mine weathered stone, coal, tin & copper? Weathered stone is any stone block above level 64 that has one of it's sides exposed to the air. Below level 64 there is a % chance based on depth that a stone block converts to weathered stone. It could break down into small rocks & flint, and be your first tier of crafting material (an oven to cook food, a furnace to cook tin & copper, a basic alloy smeltery to make bronze). Early game mining is pretty much just exposed ore veins and cave systems.

I see the progression for mining being as follows (simple enough for minecraft standards, without being a total conversion). Adds a lot more mining & crafting to early game without overly complicating things.

Tier 0 - Scavenging
Find rocks on the surface that you can pick up, these will be basic rocks or flint. Find sticks in trees. Bones. 2x2 crafting only making first basic flint/bone tools. No punching blocks to break.

Tier 1 - Flint (aka Wood era in vanilla minecraft)
Can now chop down trees, and dig into weathered stones and tier 1 ores (Coal, Tin, Copper).

Tier 2 - Bronze (aka Stone era is vanilla minecraft)
Can dig into normal stone and iron/gold ore. Bronze is needed for a furnace that can cook iron/gold ingots. (at this point, plug into Tinkers Construct so Grout can only be cooked in this tier furnace)

Tier 3 - Iron
Can mine redstone & diamonds (and other modded ores). Once at this tier, you have unlocked most tech mod access, since most need Iron.
Optional extra, have a "dense stone" material underground that can only be mined by iron tools, to restrict Bronze tools to higher levels underground.

Tier 4 - Diamond (optional, for obsidian/durable tools)

Gold tools totally ignored. All vanilla tools should be low durability for "decorative" purposes (and to ensure mod recipes still work). (Wooden sword unchanged, as it's basically a club, which would work perfectly fine whacking things over the head with...)

 

[VapourDrive]

Some further ideas.

Since one of the issues is that a wooden pickaxe can get you down to bedrock level (avoiding obsidian/lava enroute) the whole tool progression is pretty "weak".
Instead, what if tier 1 pickaxe can only mine weathered stone, coal, tin & copper? Weathered stone is any stone block above level 64 that has one of it's sides exposed to the air. Below level 64 there is a % chance based on depth that a stone block converts to weathered stone. It could break down into small rocks & flint, and be your first tier of crafting material (an oven to cook food, a furnace to cook tin & copper, a basic alloy smeltery to make bronze). Early game mining is pretty much just exposed ore veins and cave systems.

It would be hard to give worldgen that sort of contition for spawning, it might work not sure. I like the concept, copper and tin could drop copper mineral rich rubble when smashed with the hammer/bludgeon and it would have low durability to encourage surface exploration for copper and tin.

I see the progression for mining being as follows (simple enough for minecraft standards, without being a total conversion). Adds a lot more mining & crafting to early game without overly complicating things.

Tier 0 - Scavenging
Find rocks on the surface that you can pick up, these will be basic rocks or flint. Find sticks in trees. Bones. 2x2 crafting only making first basic flint/bone tools. No punching blocks to break.

So bone tools would be the same tier as flint or a tier down?, flint is already pretty easy to find on the surface with how I have it spawning so I think most people would move on to flint. I guess the flint tools could require a crafting table and bone tools could be the 2x2...

Tier 1 - Flint (aka Wood era in vanilla minecraft)
Can now chop down trees, and dig into weathered stones and tier 1 ores (Coal, Tin, Copper).

Tier 2 - Bronze (aka Stone era is vanilla minecraft)
Can dig into normal stone and iron/gold ore. Bronze is needed for a furnace that can cook iron/gold ingots. (at this point, plug into Tinkers Construct so Grout can only be cooked in this tier furnace)

I like these tiers (with comment I made above about weathered stone), except for the hard dependency on TiC. Bronze would be a good gate for an ore smelting furnace, I already have the workings of a food-cooking oven.

Tier 3 - Iron
Can mine redstone & diamonds (and other modded ores). Once at this tier, you have unlocked most tech mod access, since most need Iron.
Optional extra, have a "dense stone" material underground that can only be mined by iron tools, to restrict Bronze tools to higher levels underground.

I'll see what I can do for hooking into stone-gen, this should be straight forward... on todo list.

Tier 4 - Diamond (optional, for obsidian/durable tools)

Gold tools totally ignored. All vanilla tools should be low durability for "decorative" purposes (and to ensure mod recipes still work). (Wooden sword unchanged, as it's basically a club, which would work perfectly fine whacking things over the head with...)

As to what I have been accomplishing, I have the recipe foundation for the cutting table almost complete... Just need to refine the mechanic to make crafting user-friendly and add recipes to the list.
Some notes on this:
The cutting table could easily serve a purpose as a deconstruction table... And by easily I mean that it has the potential to with four output slots. I may add some optional recipes for tearing apart ore-dictionary registered basic things/blocks - fences give back a few sticks etc.

 

[Golrith]

It would be hard to give worldgen that sort of contition for spawning, it might work not sure. I like the concept, copper and tin could drop copper mineral rich rubble when smashed with the hammer/bludgeon and it would have low durability to encourage surface exploration for copper and tin.

It would have to be performed after world gen, scanning each stone block and determine if it's got air next to it. Might really hammer performance though.

So bone tools would be the same tier as flint or a tier down?, flint is already pretty easy to find on the surface with how I have it spawning so I think most people would move on to flint. I guess the flint tools could require a crafting table and bone tools could be the 2x2...

Yep, just to simplify things to minecraft level.

I like these tiers (with comment I made above about weathered stone), except for the hard dependency on TiC. Bronze would be a good gate for an ore smelting furnace, I already have the workings of a food-cooking oven.

Not a dependancy, but a change to TiC (configurable) if detected.


One thing I would comment on is to make sure you are not making early game too "involved" when compared to "normal" modded play. It would be a bit inconsistent if too many things break away from the normal 3x3 crafting.

 

[VapourDrive]

It would have to be performed after world gen, scanning each stone block and determine if it's got air next to it. Might really hammer performance though.
Yep, just to simplify things to minecraft level.
Not a dependancy, but a change to TiC (configurable) if detected.
One thing I would comment on is to make sure you are not making early game too "involved" when compared to "normal" modded play. It would be a bit inconsistent if too many things break away from the normal 3x3 crafting.

Anything that is extremely "involved" would then be a change that continues to affect during the entire game. You will continue to process animal bodies on the cutting table through-out the entire game, and you will continue to need a valid tool for block breaking throughout the entire game. Many of the recipes that I add will require the cutting table because I like it as a mechanism.

I guess this mod will truly modify the way the game is played. If that is something that someone doesn't want I will never force them to use it. I truly hope to be able to remain in the realm of "compatible with other mods" but that may fall off the waggon. We'll see what happens I guess
I also don't want something I am making to turn into something that I am not honestly satisfied with because I was too concerned about whether or not other people would like it. Not that I will ever turn down criticism or advice but my response may end up being "Because I like it that way".

 

[Golrith]

If it's feasible to do the Weathered Stone system without bringing Minecraft to it's knees, could you make that available as a separate mini mod? I'm sure quite a few people could make use of a system like that.
Meanwhile, some of my posts have given me some food for thought in my own modpack. Can't wait to see what you come up with with this mod, lots of interesting things being mentioned.

 

[Yulife]

If it's feasible to do the Weathered Stone system without bringing Minecraft to it's knees, could you make that available as a separate mini mod? I'm sure quite a few people could make use of a system like that.
Meanwhile, some of my posts have given me some food for thought in my own modpack. Can't wait to see what you come up with with this mod, lots of interesting things being mentioned.

Golrith, make sure to check out CustomItems as you are able to make food and even crops with it. It took some time for me to figure out how to use it, but I finally got it to work so that I now have festive food and blocks in my modpack! If you need help, as always, ask me

 

[Golrith]

Golrith, make sure to check out CustomItems as you are able to make food and even crops with it. It took some time for me to figure out how to use it, but I finally got it to work so that I now have festive food and blocks in my modpack! If you need help, as always, ask me

I already use custom items (38 new blocks, 28 new items and 4 new foods so far), and occasionally have chats with Otho. I do need to update to the newer version though for it's extra features.

 

[Yulife]

I already use custom items (38 new blocks, 28 new items and 4 new foods so far), and occasionally have chats with Otho. I do need to update to the newer version though for it's extra features.

Wow, I didn't know that ^-^ I should really check your pack out... I think it is quite underrated.

 

[Golrith]

Wow, I didn't know that ^-^ I should really check your pack out... I think it is quite underrated.

I think that's because at initial glance, it looks like pretty much any other pack, but there are a lot of subtle changes (if you can call 98kb, around 400 lines of minetweaker scripts subtle). I basically wanted an "all the mods" pack that didn't have the resource rush, felt more meshed together (instead of just thrown together) and having survival mean something without being "evil". But it's a modpack that I'm playing, and I've shared it in case anyone has similar tastes/interests. Not too fussed if its not a hit with the masses, I've had fun building it (and playing/dying in it).

 

[Yulife]

I think that's because at initial glance, it looks like pretty much any other pack, but there are a lot of subtle changes (if you can call 98kb, around 400 lines of minetweaker scripts subtle). I basically wanted an "all the mods" pack that didn't have the resource rush, felt more meshed together (instead of just thrown together) and having survival mean something without being "evil". But it's a modpack that I'm playing, and I've shared it in case anyone has similar tastes/interests. Not too fussed if its not a hit with the masses, I've had fun building it (and playing/dying in it).

Just started a world in it - looked at the Underground and well.. I am impressed. I very much like the idea of a general type of stone laced with minerals to be broken down in many different metals
EDIT: What just blew my mind even more is the BoP integration with Antique Atlas and all of the textures... did you all do that yourself?!

 

[Golrith]

Just started a world in it - looked at the Underground and well.. I am impressed. I very much like the idea of a general type of stone laced with minerals to be broken down in many different metals

Thanks. Once you start looking into it, you suddenly realise that there is not as much ore as you think there is, and every tech path requires some thinking about what's the best option to get your industrial revolution started.
Working on 1.0.4 update, one mod causing problems and removed, some tweaks, updates, etc. Still trying to work out what's causing server tick problems (I think it's just the size of the pack under 1.7.10 so unavoidable)

But, enough hi-jacking of this topic

 

[Zandorum]

I like these tiers (with comment I made above about weathered stone), except for the hard dependency on TiC. Bronze would be a good gate for an ore smelting furnace, I already have the workings of a food-cooking oven.

I think that you should pick something other than bronze not to break the flow of other mods that require bronze for higher tier things. Bronze is like Steel just less used when it comes to the frequency of Late game use and this could unbalance a plethora of mods.

Also If you want some ideas back in 1.7.3 someone did this suggestion and mod that never got updated that tries to accomplish the same thing. You could use this for some ideas http://www.minecraftforum.net/forum...aft-mods/1272409-v1-7-3-extended2x2-on-hiatus

 

[VapourDrive]

I think that you should pick something other than bronze not to break the flow of other mods that require bronze for higher tier things. Bronze is like Steel just less used when it comes to the frequency of Late game use and this could unbalance a plethora of mods.

Also If you want some ideas back in 1.7.3 someone did this suggestion and mod that never got updated that tries to accomplish the same thing. You could use this for some ideas http://www.minecraftforum.net/forum...aft-mods/1272409-v1-7-3-extended2x2-on-hiatus

Bronze is borked as a balance feature in most mods as it is, which is a shame because in history the bronze age comes before the iron age. Iron can only be extracted from the ore at high enough temperatures that people were limited to using an alloy of copper and usually tin -> bronze. Tin became less easy to find from all of the bronze production and then people turned to iron as the main tool/weapon metal even though it was softer in it's pure form. Not long into this whole iron production business the process was refined and they switched over to carbonized irons -> steel, refined the process and never looked back because the now cheap to make steel was better than bronze and iron ore was plentiful.

Now trying to fit that into the mod without destroying balance:
You do need to start off with bronze because copper and tin are the first metals that can be worked with in a rudimentary kiln. A kiln can smelt some basic alloys and will be made with rubble and cement (clay and rubble and a bowl with water).
Bronze will allow you to mine - you previously couldn't - even stone, now you have a pick that has the same harvest level of stone and the ability to craft a vanilla furnace.
My bronze pickaxe will require copper and tin but the tin I provide will be harder to find than most other mods (see cassiterite ore).

Bronze pick: more durable than iron, easier to craft, lower harvest level, harder to find materials for.
Balanced? Hopefully

Also thanks for the resource, really good ideas!

 

[HeilMewTwo]

Oh god, I so want a realistic mining mod for minecraft. With the proper progress based on real life.

 

[VapourDrive]

Oh god, I so want a realistic mining mod for minecraft. With the proper progress based on real life.

This is very difficult to do while maintaining support for other mods... It would be super easy to do for a standalone vanilla overhaul though.

 

[HeilMewTwo]

This is very difficult to do while maintaining support for other mods... It would be super easy to do for a standalone vanilla overhaul though.

Yes please! By itself it would make vanilla so interesting.

 

[PierceSG]

Why does it sound like TFC?

 

[Zandorum]

Bronze is borked as a balance feature in most mods as it is, which is a shame because in history the bronze age comes before the iron age. Iron can only be extracted from the ore at high enough temperatures that people were limited to using an alloy of copper and usually tin -> bronze. Tin became less easy to find from all of the bronze production and then people turned to iron as the main tool/weapon metal even though it was softer in it's pure form. Not long into this whole iron production business the process was refined and they switched over to carbonized irons -> steel, refined the process and never looked back because the now cheap to make steel was better than bronze and iron ore was plentiful.

Now trying to fit that into the mod without destroying balance:
You do need to start off with bronze because copper and tin are the first metals that can be worked with in a rudimentary kiln. A kiln can smelt some basic alloys and will be made with rubble and cement (clay and rubble and a bowl with water).
Bronze will allow you to mine - you previously couldn't - even stone, now you have a pick that has the same harvest level of stone and the ability to craft a vanilla furnace.
My bronze pickaxe will require copper and tin but the tin I provide will be harder to find than most other mods (see cassiterite ore).

Bronze pick: more durable than iron, easier to craft, lower harvest level, harder to find materials for.
Balanced? Hopefully

Also thanks for the resource, really good ideas!

I understand why I'm just saying balance wise the ability to get Bronze easily is a little... borked. What I feel is you should go the Rotarycraft Route example: HSLA Steel is not compatible with other Steel or Viseversa unless you use the Steel Purifier. What you could do is make it so the bronze you make with YOUR process is something like "Crude Bronze" and it would not dictionary as bronze but as crudebronze instead making it not mess up the trees of other mods.

 

[Golrith]

Mini Hijack, but my question may be of help.

I'm attempting to implement a basic version of some of my ideas in this topic (mainly just weathered stone, and pushing iron behind bronze) but what I need to find out is what is the harvest level of vanilla tools are (I'll worry about modded tools later...)
Is it as simple as:
1 = Wood
2 = Stone
3 = Iron
4 = Diamond
? = Gold

 

[pancakemaster24]

This is a wounderful idea. I have always wanted a mod like TFC but more mod compatible but please don't make this a vanilla overhaul mod. If you make this mod a vanilla overhaul you not only step on TFC toes a little bit but you also lose a great idea. We have mods that make surviving and eating more realistic (envriomine and hungerover haul) but what we don't have is a mod that makes beginning minecraft more realistic. But hey that's just my two cents.