EE3 is already broken!

[Pip69]

Anything that is included in a mod pack should have the ability to be balanced with the other mods in it.
If (for example) EE lets you get things 10x faster then all the other mods combined then it's not a good fit, nor is it something that most servers would want included.
Now if you want to talk about an EE3 modpack and all the other mods in that pack are set to fit with EE then that would be ok too.

 

[Hoff]

Anything that is included in a mod pack should have the ability to be balanced with the other mods in it.
If (for example) EE lets you get things 10x faster then all the other mods combined then it's not a good fit, nor is it something that most servers would want included.
Now if you want to talk about an EE3 modpack and all the other mods in that pack are set to fit with EE then that would be ok too.

Not all of the packs are based around balance and "challenge" as someone stated earlier in the thread. But if it's a server's choice if it's there or not then it's their fault if they allow it. Honestly if it's that big of a deal just do it like GT and have it disabled by default for some packs

 

[Scale_e]

Actually that's a perfectly fine argument because it means the mechanics work fine intended or not. That means that there are those that enjoy these mechanics and a way to leave them as is should be available even if changes are made for others.

Actually, it's not an argument. It's just an opinion, without evidence of any kind. It isn't even very expressive.
If he was to say "This is the way it is, and I don't want it to change..... because I am used to this playstyle and quite enjoy it. Furthermore, changing the mod to detect and be more adaptable to other mods is prohibitively complicated and would take precious time away from the maker of EE. On top of that, I don't think it is the responsibility of the FTB crew to balance individual mods specifically, that is firmly in the domain of the mod maker, the FTB crew should merely select mods on their own merit. Based on this I think the benefits of EE outweigh the bugs/oversights that the previous forum member posted."
That is an argument. See the difference?

1) equivalent exchange from tekkit was FAR more broken. Being able to quickly duplicate almost any basic item for free was way too easy.

2) Being able to pulverize and recraft bonemeal and blazerods isn't all that powerful at all. I appreciate finding and using little loopholes and combos in the modpack. To me it's almost the same thing as combining machines from multiple mods and buildcraft pipes to create impressive factories of autosorting, autosmelting, autocrafting awesomeness. We aren't here, playing these modpacks, to do things the vanilla minecraft way. We are using these mods to do more impressive things, do things differently, and to find ways to improve our minecraft experience.

3) and for the record I think we should have more stuff like EE3 and less stuff like gregtech's recipe nerfing. And more stuff like thaumcraft and twilight forest and mystcraft. All of which I feel fill in huge gaps in the player capabilities and help the player fix problems. For example, one of the huge gaps in minecraft is armor cheaper than iron or leather. Why can't we make wooden or stone armor to protect ourselves while waiting for iron to be plentiful. If you start playing by going heavy IndstrialCraft you'll never want to use iron for armor because you need it for all your machines. Leather is too valuable for books for the enchantment table bookcases. Mystcraft and twilight forest also help you with finding resources from biomes you aren't close to.

1) Lol. I totally agree. Tekkit with EE was crazy. Farm items, cash them in, get anything you want. Collectors... It was a mess. But looking at early EE does not excuse the mistakes of current EE.
2) True also. And I too like finding loopholes such as this, because I then get to report them and see them corrected. It's, to me, the most rewarding part of being in a beta.
3) Yes and no. I'm still torn about gregtech. Yeah more magic stuff would be good. More interchangeable magic stuff would be better though. I also agree about the armor, IC2+GT= Iron scarcity.

But I don't believe all that is sufficient for ignoring this issue. The FTB makers obviously want this to be the best pack possible and bugs like this detract from the concept of cohesion.

There's still some work that needs to be done on it, hence why it's still alpha.

Which is why I cannot understand people being offended when a bug is pointed out with it. If the maker of EE didn't want people to pick out bugs, why would they release an alpha in the first place?

 

[Scale_e]

I mean at the very core of the mod it seems you dislike what it does. The entire principle of the mod is making materials easily change-able. It may take awhile to change upward but it can be done still fairly easily. Truly that's what is the basis of the mod, or at least what it originally was. If being able to easily make other things into diamonds or gold or iron or anything else seems wrong then it's a fundamental flaw with the mod for your playstyle. Again though you could just opt not to use the ability to change into metals/gems or change the state of metals/gems or only do some of them as you deem fit. For example in DW20's season 4 LP he used EE2 but only used it when he felt not using it simply added tedium to the game.

I agree with you about your conception of EE. It is supposed to be, mechanically speaking, easy. This is why it seems so at odds with the rest of FTB. Why do I need to do all this other complicated stuff when I can just throw it all in a grid with a rock randomly dropped of a zombie? It is too easy.

Anything that is included in a mod pack should have the ability to be balanced with the other mods in it.
If (for example) EE lets you get things 10x faster then all the other mods combined then it's not a good fit, nor is it something that most servers would want included.
Now if you want to talk about an EE3 modpack and all the other mods in that pack are set to fit with EE then that would be ok too.

This exactly.

 

[Hoff]

Actually, it's not an argument. It's just an opinion, without evidence of any kind. It isn't even very expressive.
If he was to say "This is the way it is, and I don't want it to change..... because I am used to this playstyle and quite enjoy it. Furthermore, changing the mod to detect and be more adaptable to other mods is prohibitively complicated and would take precious time away from the maker of EE. On top of that, I don't think it is the responsibility of the FTB crew to balance individual mods specifically, that is firmly in the domain of the mod maker, the FTB crew should merely select mods on their own merit. Based on this I think the benefits of EE outweigh the bugs/oversights that the previous forum member posted."
That is an argument. See the difference?

I don't understand that as an argument versus just the very first sentence because I understood everything that came after to be implied because I assume many people that do make such a post are unable to articulate such things easily.

I agree with you about your conception of EE. It is supposed to be, mechanically speaking, easy. This is why it seems so at odds with the rest of FTB. Why do I need to do all this other complicated stuff when I can just throw it all in a grid with a rock randomly dropped of a zombie? It is too easy.


This exactly.

Again I see you in the same boat as daemon. The idea of the mod is ease and if you feel it too easy simply don't use it. If it comes down to the point that you don't have enough self-control to not use it(Not meant as something to offend ><) then it is just as well to disable it. I think this is the problem with most that play; if there is an easy way they will take it regardless of if they think it's right to use that easy way or not. I don't see this as a problem with balance or with the mods themselves but as a personal issue of using mods that you don't truly enjoy at their core. That is the very reason this mod pack is meant to be so customizable.

 

[Mero]

2) True also. And I too like finding loopholes such as this, because I then get to report them and see them corrected. It's, to me, the most rewarding part of being in a beta.
Which is why I cannot understand people being offended when a bug is pointed out with it. If the maker of EE didn't want people to pick out bugs, why would they release an alpha in the first place?

There is a misconception going on in this thread.

Except for a few exceptions (extra bees, advanced/compact solars), the mods in the pack are Stand Alone mods. They were not developed to be combined with other mods.
Also, afaik none of the mods in any of the packs included in the FTB launcher were made exclusively for any of the packs.

From what I have read, the major argument in this thread is EE3 is broken because you can create infinite blaze rods or bones along with a other extended processes to create other infinite items.
Here's the problem though, EE3 itself isn't broken. In EE3, you can turn 2 blaze powders into 1 blaze rod. In vanilla minecraft you can turn 1 blaze rod into 2 blaze powders. EE3 is working exactly as it was developed to work. The mod is developed to be used with no other mods involved.
There is no Loophole or Bug in this process in EE3. EE3 is working exactly as it is intended to work.
There is ONLY an issue when EE3 is combined with TE or IC.

You can just as easily say that IC is broken because you can macerate blaze rod for 5 blaze powders. The problem isn't with EE, it is with IC because it produces more blaze powder than is intended.

The only time there is an issue with the entire process is when you combine the Broken IC macerater/TE pulverizer recipes with EE.

That is not the EE developers issue to deal with nor is it the developers of IC or TE to deal with. None of those mods are made to work together. The only people that need to do anything about this is the people using these mods combined together.

Here is another perfect example of an issue that only happens when players start to combine Mods that weren't developed to work with each other.

Soul Shards.
As a stand alone mod, SS works perfectly. You kill mobs and charge up your shard. When the shard is charged to a level that you like you can then create your own mob spawner wherever you want it to be. Alternately you can right click on a spawner with the appropriate shard to immediately increase the shard one Tier. This works perfectly and there is no issue since mob spawners are relatively rare in vanilla minecraft.
When you combine the mods Soul Shards with Thaumcraft though, all of a sudden skeleton and zombie spawners become common. Now, instead of having to dig around the world looking for spawners you can just run around the surface looking for the TC dungeons.
Does that make the Soul Shards mod broken or does that make Thaumcraft broken?
Neither of those mods are broken. They are both working as intended. Combining those mods together just happen to make gathering skeleton and zombie souls much easier than you could in vanilla.

It is the players responsibility to use the mods as intended. It isn't the mod developers to change their base mod just because players use them combined with other mods that make some of the processes in their mod work beyond what they would if they were the only mod being used.

These mods ARE NOT intended to be used together. If you CHOSE to use them together then the only thing that is broken is the end user.

 

[LazDude2012]

I'd argue that it's fine to use them together, but it's your responsibility to be responsible, and not use cross-mod exploits.

 

[Tylor]

Except for a few exceptions (extra bees, advanced/compact solars), the mods in the pack are Stand Alone mods. They were not developed to be combined with other mods.

Wrongs. Mods are designed to be playable as standalone (some more, some less), but ARE developed to be combined with other mods as well. That's why mod developers make changes when some loophole is found (such as lava in RC boiler) and test them together (DW20's server)

 

[Mero]

Wrongs. Mods are designed to be playable as standalone (some more, some less), but ARE developed to be combined with other mods as well. That's why mod developers make changes when some loophole is found (such as lava in RC boiler) and test them together (DW20's server)

Wrong. Mods are developed as stand alone.

I may or may not use EE. I will never use GT, never have never will. Thanks to all the debates on this forum, I will never use IC again, IC offers nothing I want. I also won't use railcraft. That mod just hold no interest for me.
If mod developers make standalone mods, such as EE, nerfed because of an interaction with mods that only some people use, they break their mods for people who don't use that combination of mods.

Most of these major mods were developed before technic pack and now the ftb packs were even thought about.

 

[HerbertIzMe]

We have a Tier 5 blaze spawner that pumps blaze rods, then macerate those into blaze dust. From there we shove them all into recyclers, after that we get about 30 stacks of scrap boxes and hour... Feed these into our mass fabricators, its is nothing to pump out 7-8 stacks of uu an hour. From there we can use items to make anything in the game using EE and other mods. Trust me, the game its self is OP along with all the mods. Spawners need to be nerved to give only 50 - 100 kills IF that... people should have to work for their kills.

 

[Hoff]

We have a Tier 5 blaze spawner that pumps blaze rods, then macerate those into blaze dust. From there we shove them all into recyclers, after that we get about 30 stacks of scrap boxes and hour... Feed these into our mass fabricators, its is nothing to pump out 7-8 stacks of uu an hour. From there we can use items to make anything in the game using EE and other mods. Trust me, the game its self is OP along with all the mods. Spawners need to be nerved to give only 50 - 100 kills IF that... people should have to work for their kills.

Or you could simply not use them. By the way if everything is considered OP then it's considered balance.

 

[Chocorate]

Guys, everything is OP in some way. If you don't want something that isn't super realistic or better than another thing, then don't use it. Isn't the whole point of these mods to have fun? I just want something cool in these mods that I can make (whether it be an upgraded iron furnace or solar panels) and have fun with the game. If everything is balanced, what's the point in trying to make it? You're just playing the game and getting resources the same way if nothing is "OP"... I just wanna have fun with the mods. :/

 

[Scale_e]

The only time there is an issue with the entire process is when you combine the Broken IC macerater/TE pulverizer recipes with EE.

That is not the EE developers issue to deal with nor is it the developers of IC or TE to deal with. None of those mods are made to work together. The only people that need to do anything about this is the people using these mods combined together.


It is the players responsibility to use the mods as intended. It isn't the mod developers to change their base mod just because players use them combined with other mods that make some of the processes in their mod work beyond what they would if they were the only mod being used.

These mods ARE NOT intended to be used together. If you CHOSE to use them together then the only thing that is broken is the end user.

Again I see you in the same boat as daemon. The idea of the mod is ease and if you feel it too easy simply don't use it. If it comes down to the point that you don't have enough self-control to not use it(Not meant as something to offend ><) then it is just as well to disable it. I think this is the problem with most that play; if there is an easy way they will take it regardless of if they think it's right to use that easy way or not. I don't see this as a problem with balance or with the mods themselves but as a personal issue of using mods that you don't truly enjoy at their core. That is the very reason this mod pack is meant to be so customizable.

I'd argue that it's fine to use them together, but it's your responsibility to be responsible, and not use cross-mod exploits.

Or you could simply not use them. By the way if everything is considered OP then it's considered balance.

Guys, everything is OP in some way. If you don't want something that isn't super realistic or better than another thing, then don't use it.

In a single player game your methods of regulation (the player just resisting the temptation to use exploits, or removing it from the pack.) would work fine. Hell, it's probably what I'll do for my own singleplayer experience. But in a multiplayer environment it falls apart. Just ignoring the problem doesn't work on a server with 30 people on it. Exploits will be abused. We need to nip that in the bud now.
You are correct though in that these exploits show that in some isolated areas cross mod compatibility was not considered by some of the mod makers. On the other hand some of the mod makers are going out of their way to promote it. Redpower Blulectric Engines are one example.
Think about this; FTB is going to be huge. Personally, I think it will put the final nail in Tekkits coffin and will become the most widely used mod pack in the Minecraft community. Cross mod compatibility must be a high priority for us and the producers of FTB... or what is the point of putting together a pack like this? This is going to be a multiplayer experience, it's replacing Technic and Tekkit. If you'd have told me 12 months ago that that was possible I'd have laughed. Fixing bugs like the bonemeal and blaze powder thing are small potatoes compared to what the FTB devs must have gone through to get this thing going. What boggles my mind is the resistance to such corrections. To say "Hey, there are more important things to do right now." is one thing, but to effectively say "Just ignore this potential item duping. Forever." makes no sense. So you guys like this incomplete, unpolished EE pre-release just as it is? Please be prepared to make some concessions. EE and FTB are works in progress.

I don't understand that as an argument versus just the very first sentence because I understood everything that came after to be implied because I assume many people that do make such a post are unable to articulate such things easily.

You can't just imply evidence in an argument. None of us can read minds. Unable to articulate such things? Try harder. If you can't find the right words for something, look them up. If you can't think of a proper way to phrase an argument then don't post it. Think about it some more, do some research and then come back and see if you've found the right words. I really don't want to sound like an arsehole when I say this and I'm not pointing a finger at you Hoff, but damn man, how can failing be an excuse for failing?

 

[Hoff]

In a single player game your methods of regulation (the player just resisting the temptation to use exploits, or removing it from the pack.) would work fine. Hell, it's probably what I'll do for my own singleplayer experience. But in a multiplayer environment it falls apart. Just ignoring the problem doesn't work on a server with 30 people on it. Exploits will be abused. We need to nip that in the bud now.
You are correct though in that these exploits show that in some isolated areas cross mod compatibility was not considered by some of the mod makers. On the other hand some of the mod makers are going out of their way to promote it. Redpower Blulectric Engines are one example.
Think about this; FTB is going to be huge. Personally, I think it will put the final nail in Tekkits coffin and will become the most widely used mod pack in the Minecraft community. Cross mod compatibility must be a high priority for us and the producers of FTB... or what is the point of putting together a pack like this? This is going to be a multiplayer experience, it's replacing Technic and Tekkit. If you'd have told me 12 months ago that that was possible I'd have laughed. Fixing bugs like the bonemeal and blaze powder thing are small potatoes compared to what the FTB devs must have gone through to get this thing going. What boggles my mind is the resistance to such corrections. To say "Hey, there are more important things to do right now." is one thing, but to effectively say "Just ignore this potential item duping. Forever.." makes no sense. So you guys like this incomplete, unpolished EE pre-release just as it is? Please be prepared to make some concessions. EE and FTB are works in progress.

Multiplayer is one of the biggest reasons configs exist. Server admins have the ability to choose what stays and what goes. Quite honestly I think shdwdragon's mod for removing one block completely should be in the pack and disabled by default so more servers know about it. No matter how much people want it the mod makers are generally not part of FTB. Many of them even openly say that there are several conditions in which they will immediately pull support. It will never be their job to balance their mods for this pack. The FTB devs do get to suggest many of the changes to the makers because many of them are considered to be friends and talk often, but that only goes so far. Truthfully it's hardly a dupe because of the things you have to input to begin the dupe. You won't ever stop putting in energy to make it work so what's the difference in A tree farm that makes infinite trees less valued input? The dupes just change the energy you input into the state of the item you already have. I don't see that as a problem.

You can't just imply evidence in an argument. None of us can read minds. Unable to articulate such things? Try harder. If you can't find the right words for something, look them up. If you can't think of a proper way to phrase an argument then don't post it. Think about it some more, do some research and then come back and see if you've found the right words. I really don't want to sound like an arsehole when I say this and I'm not pointing a finger at you Hoff, but damn man, how can failing be an excuse for failing?

I've been on far too many international forums with people who do not speak english as a primary language but try their hardest to explain their minds on matters and I can generally understand what is implied by the things they say because they have no other way to say it. Not many of them have the option to take more time to research it and find the right words and what not, but that doesn't mean that their opinions show not be heard. I guess I can't really expect people to understand such things as it is an acquired skill but whatever. Also it's not that failing is an excuse for failing, but rather that being foreign is an excuse for failing at English.

 

[Scale_e]

Multiplayer is one of the biggest reasons configs exist. Server admins have the ability to choose what stays and what goes.

ICountFrom0 has already rebuffed this better than I have. So:

We really can't just go, willy nilly, into the configs and change everything. Part of what makes minecraft so amazing is the community.

You've seen some of the amazing things that the vanilla mode has produced when so many people get together and work on something together, right? Part of that is because everybody can just pick up what other people did and use it themselves, and then try to improve it.

If we all splinter to 10,000 changed config settings then it becomes rather hard for any of us to know if the project that our friend is so proud of working on would even work for ourselves.

This is one of the reasons that trying to agree, as a community of individualists, on anything is so important.

So please, I know we all like to be right, but we also have to listen to eachother, don't we?

I don't see that as a problem.

It looks like we have both emptied our pool of arguments. We're just going to have to agree to disagree I suppose.

Many of them even openly say that there are several conditions in which they will immediately pull support. It will never be their job to balance their mods for this pack. The FTB devs do get to suggest many of the changes to the makers because many of them are considered to be friends and talk often, but that only goes so far.

I cannot pretend to know how each mod maker feels on this subject (again, none of us are mind-readers), but it seems to me like the sentiment you describe is a result of previous bad experiences with... those charming fellows... over at Technic/Tekkit. So unless something dramatic happens over the next few months like... you know what, I don't even want to hypothetically outline possible scenarios that would destroy this modpack. I'm just not going there. But you know what I mean. Unless something that bad happens, I expect that the mod makers with strong reservations will begin to get on board. As I previously said, FTB is going to be HUGE.

I've been on far too many international forums with people who do not speak english as a primary language but try their hardest to explain their minds on matters and I can generally understand what is implied by the things they say because they have no other way to say it. Not many of them have the option to take more time to research it and find the right words and what not, but that doesn't mean that their opinions show not be heard. I guess I can't really expect people to understand such things as it is an acquired skill but whatever. Also it's not that failing is an excuse for failing, but rather that being foreign is an excuse for failing at English.

That's a fair point. But I figure if they have the motivation to get so worked up over an issue that they feel they must comment on it, then they probably have the motivation to do some research and say it in English. If they just wanted to have their opinion counted, well the OP put a poll on the top of the page. That's a good place for an opinion without having to back it up at all. (although, with the FTB forum mods attitude toward polls... probably wouldn't put one there myself. 0.o)

 

[Hoff]

ICountFrom0 has already rebuffed this better than I have. So:

I probably never will understand this one I guess. It just goes against how I really play and the fact that I despise SMP. Though I understand where he's coming from that others seek to follow others footsteps for whatever reason. Though I will say that same point would also lead to the ideal that there shouldn't be more than one pack. The launcher itself seems to support varrying packs and configs for servers with the new private pack ability.

I cannot pretend to know how each mod maker feels on this subject (again, none of us are mind-readers), but it seems to me like the sentiment you describe is a result of previous bad experiences with... those charming fellows... over at Technic/Tekkit. So unless something dramatic happens over the next few months like... you know what, I don't even want to hypothetically outline possible scenarios that would destroy this modpack. I'm just not going there. But you know what I mean. Unless something that bad happens, I expect that the mod makers with strong reservations will begin to get on board. As I previously said, FTB is going to be HUGE.

It's true it has a lot of potential for becoming a huge thing but I doubt it can ever be called the mod pack of the modders. It will never be theirs as a whole. Thus as a general rule of thumb I estimate the mods will still be used more outside the pack than in it.

That's a fair point. But I figure if they have the motivation to get so worked up over an issue that they feel they must comment on it, then they probably have the motivation to do some research and say it in English. If they just wanted to have their opinion counted, well the OP put a poll on the top of the page. That's a good place for an opinion without having to back it up at all. (although, with the FTB forum mods attitude toward polls... probably wouldn't put one there myself. 0.o)

I suppose. Though I doubt I'll ever stop doing it since it becomes the handy tool that lets me have a response already written to what I know someone will respond to my post with... if that makes sense. Lol.

 

[ICountFrom0]

I don't know I'd have quoted that particular bit, I might have said something about... well.

You can make a lot of useful assumptions about a mod dev by how they treat the work of others.

Or something along those lines. But really, ee3 is still in pre-releases, it's barely stable worldgen. I'd say it's little more then a test bed to lay the first steps of the real mod on top of.

It strikes me as funny (Ow, stop striking me) that people would get upset over it at this stage.

But I do look forward to having quite long and complicated discussions over how a limitless and free input source changes the structure of the game.

Starting with the changes caused by mobfarms and gardens, then moving to solar/wind/water power for machines, and then EMC when it goes in.

That's going to be a lovely discussion, I just know it.

 

[Bagman817]

In a single player game your methods of regulation (the player just resisting the temptation to use exploits, or removing it from the pack.) would work fine. Hell, it's probably what I'll do for my own singleplayer experience. But in a multiplayer environment it falls apart. Just ignoring the problem doesn't work on a server with 30 people on it. Exploits will be abused. We need to nip that in the bud now.

Just to address this part, with a pack of 50+ mods, there are going to be 'exploits' in one form or another; count on it. Competent server admins can, however, deal with most of them. Back in the day, most decent servers either disabled EE2 altogether or heavily nerfed it. It was (I assume still is) possible to fix IC2's blaze rod/macerator exploit (yes, that one belongs to IC2, not EE2), for example. Just because the packs as released might be unbalanced in a server environment, doesn't imply that it needs changing.

Also, most mods are, and should, in my opinion be developed as a stand alone product. It would be, quite simply, impossible to imagine every possible configuration of mods with which they might be combined. I would hope, however, that some might take the approach that GregTech has (WAIT A MINUTE, PUT DOWN THE PITCHFORKS AND HEAR ME OUT!) in making configs that take into account several of the major mods, and changes recipes accordingly, while still giving the player/server admin the ability to change them back, as he does with the "If Railcraft, Then Steel Tools" recipes.

Using an incendiary mod as an example of flexibility. That's how I roll =)

 

[Hoff]

I doubt that anybody will disagree with you that the options for admin beneficial, but for a less incendiary example, the planed adaptive changes to EMC based on mod and recipe detection ... maybe?

I should hope those too will be changeable config wise. Not everyone wants balanced gameplay or to play with the same settings the rest of the FTB users play on.

 

[The Skeptical Tech]

Server admins can disable recipes if needed.