Greylist Server DOGS OF THE STATE: OUTPOSTS [FeedTheBeast - MindCrack v8] [1.4.7] [Mature] [Military Minded]
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From what I can tell, with enough quarries, nothing is rare. Sand can be made by pulverizing cobble. Iridium is rare, but can be made from uu matter, so once uu matter is being made in a hurry, it won't be worth anything. (or we get a fusion reactor going for it.) Chrome is the devil though. Silicon plates and carbon plates cheap once you get stuff going. Alloy plates aren't too bad after a while. Chrome is the toughest.
Here's a video tour I made of my sorting village last night:
IMarv
Here's a video tour I made of my sorting village last night:
IMarv
Allright, here is some general advice on streamlining your base to help both your client and the server to cope with things better.
I could of course give you a 1000 point long list of what causes lag but that'd have me typing all day and I'd still forget half the cases, so what I'll try to do with the following lines is to give you a basic understanding of how Minecraft's inner working influence server and client performance. I am simplifying things in this post and my numbers are probably not 100% accurate but it should help you get the idea.
When you play Minecraft, the server has to sent your client what is in the world around you. It does so when you load a new chunk (by moving around or logging on) or when a block update occurs (for example your furnace has cooked an item etc.). With every bit the server sends, it of course has to do some calculations (one item cooked means one more in them output slot, 1/8 of that coal piece has been used etc.) and the client has to do the same (update the number on your screen for example). The more is send and calculated the more server- and clientside resources are used (that's what we're trying to reduce here).
What we can do to lighten the load is reduce the amount of sending and calculating going on in the background but also how much is send.
A series of examples with rising load:
1.) Imagine a world with just one dirt block or stone block or stair. What the server has to send in this case is the item ID and the so-called metadata. All in all that's less than 2 Bytes of data, so even if we have thousands of blocks to load that's not a problem since we're only somwhere around a few Kbyte. That's easy to handle for server, client and connection. Additional bonus is that we only have to send the data once because, well, stone blocks do not change on their own so no need to inform the client that nothing has changed.
2.) To go away from the above ideal case we now look at the feared microblocks. These need more than just those 2 Bytes I mentioned above because they contain information on which different materials occur in the block in which form and in which position. 2 Bytes, that's 16 0s and 1s is not enough to contain that much information. This additional info is saved in the often discussed tile entities. Of course there's not much to calculate in this case, micro blocks don't change on their own, but you have to see that we are now sending several times the data per block and microblocks are usually used in massive amounts. That leads to a gradual decline in performance, so while 100 microblocks are not a problem and 1000 are not a problem either, they add up to the total load on both client and server.
3.) Another nice thing about the blocks under 1.) is that there can only be one of them in any given space. That means even if the world is completely filled with blocks their amount is finite. This sadly doesn't apply to entities though. What are entities now? Simply put, animals and items on the ground or in tubes or pipes. If you have 1000 cows on your plot the server has to calculate where every single one of those is moving atm and it has to send that information to the client as well. Same goes for items.
Some things to avoid are loops in your pipe or tube networks, eternal automatic breeding machines (beware of villagers) or overflow pipes pumping into the landscape (use lava or even better void pipes). Entity that are easily forgotten because they are invisible in the game (as a single unit) are EU packets and liquids/gases. How to reduce the amount of EU entities? Shorter cables = shorter travelling times = less entities on the map (same for liquids). Also keep in mind that every solar panel sends out 20 entities per second, so better get that one big panel instead 200 small ones.
4.) A different way to "spam" the server and client is to have the same information processed and send very often. A classic example is a timer that pulses rapidly. With every pulse the information about the timer and all cables and machines hooked up to it gets reprocessed and resent. So switching from pulsing every 200ms to once a second or two makes a huge difference(try to alter your setups in a way that makes this possible/feasable). I do know that a certain amount of pulsing is necessary for many an automation so here some tips:
There are hidden "pulsers" in the game for example the RedPower relay. It checks several times a second if it contains something that it can send, better use a chest with a wooden pipe+autarchic gate.
DO NOT ever pulse any light sources. Every time a light source (torch, lamp etc.) turns on or off it does not only send it's own information into processing again but also the info of all the blocks it lights up (or stops lighting). With a pulser and 20 lightblocks you can punch your FPS down to <1 easily.
Protip: Use insulated wire instead of normal redstone or uninsulated wire it uses less resources to switch its state because it doesn't change visually.
5.) Any type of machine or otherwise advanced block is a combination of 2. and 4. so they ar slightly worse than microblocks especially when active. Generally every player can build a full set of machines without breaking the server though unless some people have to overdo things again ... *whistles*
Lastly a special case I have to mention because it is something used by almost every player:
Sorting systems! These have to check dozens of inventories to find a spot for every single item and that can mean dozens of items per second. Whatever way this is done it will be a severe performance problem, so the more player through their stuff together, the better.
I'd ask anyone who wants a sorting system to check with me or someone else who has knowledge of these things if their system can not be improved in one way or another. A hundred barrels connected by tubes is definitely not the best choice.
I could of course give you a 1000 point long list of what causes lag but that'd have me typing all day and I'd still forget half the cases, so what I'll try to do with the following lines is to give you a basic understanding of how Minecraft's inner working influence server and client performance. I am simplifying things in this post and my numbers are probably not 100% accurate but it should help you get the idea.
When you play Minecraft, the server has to sent your client what is in the world around you. It does so when you load a new chunk (by moving around or logging on) or when a block update occurs (for example your furnace has cooked an item etc.). With every bit the server sends, it of course has to do some calculations (one item cooked means one more in them output slot, 1/8 of that coal piece has been used etc.) and the client has to do the same (update the number on your screen for example). The more is send and calculated the more server- and clientside resources are used (that's what we're trying to reduce here).
What we can do to lighten the load is reduce the amount of sending and calculating going on in the background but also how much is send.
A series of examples with rising load:
1.) Imagine a world with just one dirt block or stone block or stair. What the server has to send in this case is the item ID and the so-called metadata. All in all that's less than 2 Bytes of data, so even if we have thousands of blocks to load that's not a problem since we're only somwhere around a few Kbyte. That's easy to handle for server, client and connection. Additional bonus is that we only have to send the data once because, well, stone blocks do not change on their own so no need to inform the client that nothing has changed.
2.) To go away from the above ideal case we now look at the feared microblocks. These need more than just those 2 Bytes I mentioned above because they contain information on which different materials occur in the block in which form and in which position. 2 Bytes, that's 16 0s and 1s is not enough to contain that much information. This additional info is saved in the often discussed tile entities. Of course there's not much to calculate in this case, micro blocks don't change on their own, but you have to see that we are now sending several times the data per block and microblocks are usually used in massive amounts. That leads to a gradual decline in performance, so while 100 microblocks are not a problem and 1000 are not a problem either, they add up to the total load on both client and server.
3.) Another nice thing about the blocks under 1.) is that there can only be one of them in any given space. That means even if the world is completely filled with blocks their amount is finite. This sadly doesn't apply to entities though. What are entities now? Simply put, animals and items on the ground or in tubes or pipes. If you have 1000 cows on your plot the server has to calculate where every single one of those is moving atm and it has to send that information to the client as well. Same goes for items.
Some things to avoid are loops in your pipe or tube networks, eternal automatic breeding machines (beware of villagers) or overflow pipes pumping into the landscape (use lava or even better void pipes). Entity that are easily forgotten because they are invisible in the game (as a single unit) are EU packets and liquids/gases. How to reduce the amount of EU entities? Shorter cables = shorter travelling times = less entities on the map (same for liquids). Also keep in mind that every solar panel sends out 20 entities per second, so better get that one big panel instead 200 small ones.
4.) A different way to "spam" the server and client is to have the same information processed and send very often. A classic example is a timer that pulses rapidly. With every pulse the information about the timer and all cables and machines hooked up to it gets reprocessed and resent. So switching from pulsing every 200ms to once a second or two makes a huge difference(try to alter your setups in a way that makes this possible/feasable). I do know that a certain amount of pulsing is necessary for many an automation so here some tips:
There are hidden "pulsers" in the game for example the RedPower relay. It checks several times a second if it contains something that it can send, better use a chest with a wooden pipe+autarchic gate.
DO NOT ever pulse any light sources. Every time a light source (torch, lamp etc.) turns on or off it does not only send it's own information into processing again but also the info of all the blocks it lights up (or stops lighting). With a pulser and 20 lightblocks you can punch your FPS down to <1 easily.
Protip: Use insulated wire instead of normal redstone or uninsulated wire it uses less resources to switch its state because it doesn't change visually.
5.) Any type of machine or otherwise advanced block is a combination of 2. and 4. so they ar slightly worse than microblocks especially when active. Generally every player can build a full set of machines without breaking the server though unless some people have to overdo things again ... *whistles*
Lastly a special case I have to mention because it is something used by almost every player:
Sorting systems! These have to check dozens of inventories to find a spot for every single item and that can mean dozens of items per second. Whatever way this is done it will be a severe performance problem, so the more player through their stuff together, the better.
I'd ask anyone who wants a sorting system to check with me or someone else who has knowledge of these things if their system can not be improved in one way or another. A hundred barrels connected by tubes is definitely not the best choice.
Wow Marvin, that's quite an operation you have set up. Would it fit into a PublicArea/MageTower/NexusBuilding in the center of the ship? Probably take a few floors to do it.
Would players be able to dump materials into this system? I'm sure they could, just no idea how you would implement it.
Okay, I've sepnt the past hour reading the chagelogs and making sweet sweet love to aliens with a shotgun, and here are my thoughts on the 8.2 update: WTF?!?
Seriously though, let me break this down in a classy bullet system!
- Advanced solar panels: "Rebalanced the recipe of advanced solar panel". Okay, that's kind of cute. It's not like most people can't afford them normally anyways, right?
- Chicken Chunks: Okay now we can have an option to leave chunk loaders active if the players logged on. That's nice, but how many people actually use chunk loaders? Most people use World Anchors. So, more fluff.
- Ender Storage: Oh God! Ender tanks? Is that kind of like a Tesseract? Wait, isn't just about everything in Ender storage supplanted by Tesseract's? And in a much more server friendly way too?
- Extra bees: oh sweet Jesus, 20 more bee species?! I guess I'm going to have to get my alveary on… Yeah no, not gonna happen.
- Forestry: I'm not going to pick this one apart, we don't have an actual mail system as dictated in the Forestry mod.
- GraviSuite: Oh my! An advanced jet pack? Outside of the actual hover mode, what difference is going to be from a Gravichest plate? Sure people are going to push to get to it still, but unless Greg made it require 20 Iridium plates or something like that, it's just insane! And stuff with the tool that nobody uses…
- Industrialcraft: I'm sorry, I'm fairly fluent in a number of languages and this change log is just not one of them, so no scathing review for that.
- Not Enough Items: THIS is what I'm talking about! There is nothing here, save that last line in the added section (make mod crash more informative? How about no mod crash?). A chunk boundary viewer has been too long coming, and depending on what this mob spawns with F7 thing is all about, who needs "What's My Light Level?".
- Portal: good job IChun, you fixed your shit.
- Railcraft: cool, we get a steam powered oven! That makes a total of… Nine separate things that will cook items… Fucking innovator here. There's some nifty stuff dealing with advanced rail network things, so kudos. Get the most out of our iron and steel with four plates instead of three that's nice, oh and blaze rods actually work okay in a furnace. Nice!
- Twilight Forest: FINALLY! "Added a configuration option for admin-only portals", it's about God damned time. Not saying that its going to take off on OUR server, but it was a simple oversight; I'm glad it's fixed. All this being said, this isn't a new update. We had the stuff already. Bravo.
- Xycraft: I already went over this in my spotlight. Good job Soaryn!
- Gregtech: We all love this mod. *end scathing sarcasm* This is a fairly beefy change log. However there's nothing added that all that exciting. More duplication, less innovation. More dicking about with recipes. Now you have to have a machine to put things in cells? Awesome. Plus of course changing the data of a quantum chest, so make sure that you pick them up and put them down when we update! We're going to have some massive burst lag whenever trans locators, buffers, filters,Scrapboxinators, and the like are used, thanks Greg!
Long live Dogs of the State!
The "height limit" doesn't change Drake, it has been and always will be to the stars. The depth limit, however will be drastically changed. From what I know, there may only be 10 to 15 blocks beneath us on our plots. Since the Mothership will be floating, I assume that the bottom of the ship will be located at approximately y-level 70ish, which would put ground-level (for plots at least) at between y-level 80 to level 85.
I don't think we will have to hide things way too much Drake. You see we have this "Mage Tower" that follows is about, and I'm very certain that we can use the thing for a drop trap. However, if people have their own mob grinder, it is easily concealed in many different ways. Have you been following my mod spotlights? If not I recommend you familiarize yourself with them, as the mods that I have been spotlighting are what I am attempting to put forth to the powers that be when we restart the server.
I understand that is what Incom said, but you can't blame a guy for trying to improve things around here, can you? I don't see a whole lot of sense just doing a reset without giving people new goals to mess with. Again, none of this will take place until the 1.5 update.
These things are still up in the air. Plot size will probably be in the 40 to 50 on a side range, with a height limit of 50 to 80.
There will most likely be a basement below the surface of the plot, in the range of 10 to 20 deep, dig through the floor of the basement you fall out of the ship.[DOUBLEPOST=1363208919][/DOUBLEPOST]It seems Doc and I were posting at the same time.
Motherships of the past have had height limits, the next ship may have one as well. We'll see.
IMarv
We might want a communal research table since the bonuses are based on having stuff next to them, but for the health of the node network, we would want to distribute the thaumcraft magical work areas. I'd almost recommend finding and hijacking witches' huts and desert temples and collecting our stuff before warp offs.
IMarv
The current community storage system has ender pouches keyed to a white based color that anybody can use to send stuff, so that's no problem. The tesseract could also be on a public frequency. It could be built in the community space. My plan has people hosting parts of the system to keep them engaged in the health of the system and visit each others' plots. Perhaps with the tighter quarters of the ship, people would be more inclined to use the sorting system so they can have more room to build what they want on their plot.
I'd like to try a test in the test ship of building everything there to see if it is a lag fest dead-zone like MiC's and Dark's old place or something decent.
IMarv
You mention something that has me worried. Running the mods we're running, and the kind of lag they can induce, will it be possible to return to the Motheship format?
With everyone closer together and building on smaller plots, the whole ship could turn into a dead zone
You mention something that has me worried. Running the mods we're running, and the kind of lag they can induce, will it be possible to return to the Motheship format?
With everyone closer together and building on smaller plots, the whole ship could turn into a dead zone
I wonder if maybe a outpost style format might not be better. The main town can be centered around the Mage Tower, and maybe the moderators and administrators. Then you can have some outlying player made communities or villages that groups can get together and create. This would be a great way to utilize the minecart subway systems to get around, besides the nexus pads. this will also allow us to have our plots as we do now. I can't remember who once mentioned it, but someone said on one map you had a Bakerville? This could be one of the outlying areas. Just thoughts I have had
You mention something that has me worried. Running the mods we're running, and the kind of lag they can induce, will it be possible to return to the Motheship format?
With everyone closer together and building on smaller plots, the whole ship could turn into a dead zone
It's a possibility. By combining systems, we're likely to be putting any sorting or processing machines through heavy use, which may end up being too much. On Marv's server, it's only a couple people using it. We'd have 10-15 people using it frequently. I'm not sure what the difference is to the server in having a few machines running constantly vs. many machines running sparingly. I do know that on the official Mindcrack server, their spawn area is fairly laggy, and many of their players have bases in that area. A test may be in order to determine what we're getting into.
I'm a little uneasy about the communist... I mean communal sorting/processing system. It takes away from "my precious" achievements. If you want to encourage creative builds make it a creative server. We're supposed to be struggling for survival here. Fighting against the tyranny of Greg, who demands sacrafices in the form of rubies, redstone and iridium. If I can run down to the local dime store and pick up everything I need to make a Gravi Suit then my sense of accomplishment is gone, my boredom sets in and I start figuring out ways to cause trouble (not griefing but trouble none-the-less). I especially don't like the mentality of
Yes, I know the sun is an unlimited source. Yes, I know an Ultimate Hybrid has a better output than most if not all nuclear builds. But I find no joy in the rinse and repeat method. Build an Ultimate Solar to produce more uu matter to make iridium to make more Ultimate Solars to speed up uu matter production to speed up ultimate solar production. No different than punch a tree, build a house, punch a tree, build a house. I mean no offense Marvin. You know I love you. I just don't like this idea as a server wide thing. It would work in a much smaller commune. I am a fan of the suggestion of living in groups of 3 or so and sharing resources/space that way. That way consensus can be reached within the commune on what direction to take when it comes to EU generation/sorting/general builds a lot easier and we still get the benifit less load on the server by combining machines.
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